A Different Look At Finances

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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

      

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    There it is.  








    We don't have to go very deep, or get too subjective and nit-picky to find a few.  That's the nice thing about glaring weakness.

    Any weakness is minimized/maximized, depending on salary.  I think we can all agree on that.  If you're the highest paid at your position in the league, your expected to excell across the board, and lead in several categories.

    1.  He's a defenseman, and he doesn't defend very well.  His +/- is ranked 214th among defensemen.  I know that doesn't mean everything, but in PK's case, it means more than most.  Montreal is a pretty good team defensively.  They only had around 200 gaa.  That makes him look worse.  The fact his team won't put him on the ice in a kill situation further drives the point home about a "glaring" defensive downside.  The Olympics, despite the protest of some, is an example of his defensive shortcomings.

    Though not a "glaring weakness",  all the hoopla about his offense is blown out of proportion and exagerrated.  His shooting accuracy is a myth.  He's ranked 108th among dmen in shooting %.  He gets more pp time than virtually any other dman, and he's nowhere near the top of the list in dman pp goals.  He got 4 measly pp goals.  10 goals total last year.  He was top 5 for dmen in assists.  That's about the only category I can find, where he actually performs to elite status.

    He's ranked 59th among dmen in blocked shots.  Not great in anyones book.  Neither is 46th in Hits.  He's ranked 57th among league dmen in Take Aways, and only 5 current NHL calibre D-men had more Giveaways last year.  That one is glaring.

    When you break down his body of work, it's easy to see his strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously that could change, but right now he's the leagues highest paid dman.  Offensively, there are several who are better.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt however, and put him in the category of elite offensive defensman.  Defensively, he doesn't even get a sniff at "adequate" categorically.



    Yeah, just to step in, always fun when a rival fan responds with a respectful post, right? I follow the Habs like you all follow the Bruins. Great discussions here, and when you follow the Bruins as much as you do, and the Habs as much as I do, you know your stuff. Except for Steve la Demon Blo(nde)viator, who I think is Guy Lafleur's kid. He just knows it all, and delivers his knowledge with the logical arguments that rival Plato and Aristotle. To address many nonsensical points with my specialized knowledge of 90-110 Habs games a year....

    The points are in the order they are in bold:

    1. Let's not get into a plus minus debate. In one breath, you swear the Habs are one of the better teams in the league, and that has nothing to do with Subban. Who only led them in ice-time last year...hmm. They also were one of the lower teams in goal differential. So clearly, when you play around 25-30 minutes a game with a near negative goal differential that reflects in plus-minus, correct?

    2. The Olympics Debate. Ahh, where careers are judged on two weeks every four years. Babcock will not play defensemen on their offsides. Subban, Doughty, Weber and Pietrangelo were all righties. Or, if you may, half of the best defensemen in the league.  Keith, Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhuis are lefties.  Doughty and Weber were locks because of 2010, and Pietrangelo was starting because of Hitchcock (as was Bouwmeester). The difference in caliber between those two (PK and Pietrangelo) are small. Either way, based on opinion. I will say that at this stage of the game, Weber and Doughty are better on the right side. But if you think that Subban is worse than Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhius, well, I guess you might also think plus-minus is relevant? Ok, so we solved that argument. (PS: How did Chara do in the Olympics)?

    3. The only category? "PK is this, Pk isn't that, blo-via-te, bloviate, bloviate." Do you know who leads NHL defensemen in scoring over the last two season? Yes, PK. Next!

    4. He ranks fifty-nine in blocked shots. His partners last year were Josh Gorges and Andrei Markov who were fourth and fifth in blocked shots. What should he do? Petition the league to use three pucks?  Let's see...

    5. Giveaways-what happens to players who carry the puck more than others. I'm no advanced stats guy, but the issue with giveaways, besides the odd breakaway, is the breakdown in possession. Who kills it in possession stats? SUBBAN

    6. "Defensively, he doesn't get a sniff." This is just precious. What's worse is that this guy has the self-awareness of a plenaria. He will watch Subban play in every game in the rest of his life while suffering from confirmation bias. Subban gives up the puck, he's right. Subban is on for a goal, he's right. Subban sits for a shift, he's right again. 

     

 
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Ohh boy...first troll of August.

     

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    Ohh boy...first troll of August.

     



    I don't think that's troll work, JMW.  Despite the stupid screen name, it's a well written, well thought out, thought provoking post.

    I especially liked the "three pucks" idea so Subban can up his blocked shots.  I'd have quoted it directly, but, 100 posts or more you know.

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    I don't think that's troll work, JMW.  Despite the stupid screen name, it's a well written, well thought out, thought provoking post.

    I especially liked the "three pucks" idea so Subban can up his blocked shots.  I'd have quoted it directly, but, 100 posts or more you know.




    Maybe. The name alone suggests this is a simple drive-by though. I will admit, a clever troll to be sure....

     

     

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

      

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    There it is.  

     

    Fact is...Subban has some glaring weaknesses, which in many cases, negate his strengths.  He's a talent, a very good player, no question.  But he's a long way from the leagues best defenseman, and he's being paid best defenseman money.



    What are his glaring weaknesses? And how do they negate his strengths?




     



    We don't have to go very deep, or get too subjective and nit-picky to find a few.  That's the nice thing about glaring weakness.

    Any weakness is minimized/maximized, depending on salary.  I think we can all agree on that.  If you're the highest paid at your position in the league, your expected to excell across the board, and lead in several categories.

    1.  He's a defenseman, and he doesn't defend very well.  His +/- is ranked 214th among defensemen.  I know that doesn't mean everything, but in PK's case, it means more than most.  Montreal is a pretty good team defensively.  They only had around 200 gaa.  That makes him look worse.  The fact his team won't put him on the ice in a kill situation further drives the point home about a "glaring" defensive downside.  The Olympics, despite the protest of some, is an example of his defensive shortcomings.

    Though not a "glaring weakness",  all the hoopla about his offense is blown out of proportion and exagerrated.  His shooting accuracy is a myth.  He's ranked 108th among dmen in shooting %.  He gets more pp time than virtually any other dman, and he's nowhere near the top of the list in dman pp goals.  He got 4 measly pp goals.  10 goals total last year.  He was top 5 for dmen in assists.  That's about the only category I can find, where he actually performs to elite status.

    He's ranked 59th among dmen in blocked shots.  Not great in anyones book.  Neither is 46th in Hits.  He's ranked 57th among league dmen in Take Aways, and only 5 current NHL calibre D-men had more Giveaways last year.  That one is glaring.

    When you break down his body of work, it's easy to see his strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously that could change, but right now he's the leagues highest paid dman.  Offensively, there are several who are better.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt however, and put him in the category of elite offensive defensman.  Defensively, he doesn't even get a sniff at "adequate" categorically.

    His overall body of work in no way matches his overall ability, and I'm quite thrilled with that. 



    So much wrong with this statement.

    This is what happens when someone goes by stats because they don't know what they are watching.

    108th in shooting pct. I can't argue that, your right. After watching him play, I would agree 107 other players have a better shot than him.

    Zdeno Chara is ranked 28th among defenseman in hits. Brent Bellmore and Jan Hejda who are ranked higher than him in this category are clearly more physical. Considering they play significantly less than him and have more hits It would be easy to convince someone who doesn't watch the game that they are more of physical presence than him.

    Cody Franson had a 119 more hits than Zdeno Chara.

    He doesn't kill penalties.

    Here are the top 30 defesneman in the league last year for short-handed time on ice. Give me 3 that you would take ahead of Subban.

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLDADALL&sort=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce" rel="nofollow">http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLDADALL&sort=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

    Going by the stats you've provided, Subban is an average player at best.

    Now tell me this. The team you coach is about to play the Canadiens in a 7 game playoff series. Which player on that team concerns you the most? Who are you going to prepare most for?




     

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    Ohh boy...first troll of August.

     



    I don't think that's troll work, JMW.  Despite the stupid screen name, it's a well written, well thought out, thought provoking post.

    I especially liked the "three pucks" idea so Subban can up his blocked shots.  I'd have quoted it directly, but, 100 posts or more you know.



    I liked it as well.




     

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So you like the contract?  That's a serious question.  I'm hearing different things from Habs fans.

    I think you missed the point in #1 too.  I'm not a big +/- fan either, and Subban was obviously a primary reason why the Canadiens were a good team (nobody said otherwise).  But is it fair to wonder why such good player, on a good team, who gets lots of points, isn't in the higher end of the +/- charts, alongside his salary peers like Keith, Chara, Doughty, etc.?  What would your explanation be?  I think it's because he's not quite as good as a defender as those guys, takes risks, and there are more opportunities for the opponents to score when he's on the ice, comparatively.

    Nobody thinks Bouwmeester or Vlasic are better than Subban.  Certainly not me.  But they were selected over Subban, presumably because reliable defensive play was seen as a greater compliment to that team, than Subban's higher reward/higher risk dynamic skill set.  Right?  Or what was it?  Just Hitchcock conspiracy?  No such debate with the (now) lesser paid Keith, Doughty, Chara, etc.  That's all.  

    And, I don't care if you watch 9000 Habs games a year; this is your first post here, and respect is earned, so share more knowledge and less of your anonymous credentials.

    Lame screen name too.



     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    So you like the contract?  That's a serious question.  I'm hearing different things from Habs fans.

    I think you missed the point in #1 too.  I'm not a big +/- fan either, and Subban was obviously a primary reason why the Canadiens were a good team (nobody said otherwise).  But is it fair to wonder why such good player, on a good team, who gets lots of points, isn't in the higher end of the +/- charts, alongside his salary peers like Keith, Chara, Doughty, etc.?  What would your explanation be?  I think it's because he's not quite as good as a defender as those guys, takes risks, and there are more opportunities for the opponents to score when he's on the ice, comparatively.

    Nobody thinks Bouwmeester or Vlasic are better than Subban.  Certainly not me.  But they were selected over Subban, presumably because reliable defensive play was seen as a greater compliment to that team, than Subban's higher reward/higher risk dynamic skill set.  Right?  Or what was it?  Just Hitchcock conspiracy?  No such debate with the (now) lesser paid Keith, Doughty, Chara, etc.  That's all.  

    And, I don't care if you watch 9000 Habs games a year; this is your first post here, and respect is earned, so share more knowledge and less of your anonymous credentials.

    Lame screen name too.





    I had to Google it.




     

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Jesus H. Mary, reading a couple of my own posts today and I'm starting to wonder why I'm defending P.K so much. I mean, he's fun to watch, adds to the rivalry etc..but other than that I'd love nothing more than to see Lucic put him in the 3rd row.

    For petes sake, I'm running out of things to talk about in the B's forum. I'm almost tempted to start a goalie equipment thread.  I've ventured over to the Pats forum, seeing how they're playing tonight and what a shocker. Every thread is either people fighting with Rusty or threads dedicated to people fighting with Rusty. Both consist of his lies and misinformation.

    Season cannot start soon enough.




     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    So you like the contract?  That's a serious question.  I'm hearing different things from Habs fans.

    I think you missed the point in #1 too.  I'm not a big +/- fan either, and Subban was obviously a primary reason why the Canadiens were a good team (nobody said otherwise).  But is it fair to wonder why such good player, on a good team, who gets lots of points, isn't in the higher end of the +/- charts, alongside his salary peers like Keith, Chara, Doughty, etc.?  What would your explanation be?  I think it's because he's not quite as good as a defender as those guys, takes risks, and there are more opportunities for the opponents to score when he's on the ice, comparatively.

    Nobody thinks Bouwmeester or Vlasic are better than Subban.  Certainly not me.  But they were selected over Subban, presumably because reliable defensive play was seen as a greater compliment to that team, than Subban's higher reward/higher risk dynamic skill set.  Right?  Or what was it?  Just Hitchcock conspiracy?  No such debate with the (now) lesser paid Keith, Doughty, Chara, etc.  That's all.  

    And, I don't care if you watch 9000 Habs games a year; this is your first post here, and respect is earned, so share more knowledge and less of your anonymous credentials.

    Lame screen name too.






    I don't think it's a Hitchcock conspiracy, but they went with set pairs when they could find them for "chemistry." Kunitz/Crosby, Keith/Weber or Doughty from the last Olympics. The other reason that he didn't play was success. In 2010, Doughty was on the outside looking in, but played his way onto the team. When the defense is doing great in a short tournament, why would they change that? The other side of the equation is if they lost due to scoring, the talk would be about leaving Subban out.

    I don't really have a good answer for you as far as plus-minus goes. The Habs have had a long standing issue with 5v5 scoring, but Markov was a plus 12.

    Subban- -4

    Emelin- -1

    Gorges- +6

    Diaz- +5

    Bouillon- -5

    Douglas Murray -12

    Of all those players, the only real outliers are Murray and Markov. Then you have a guy like Lars Eller who was a -19.  I don't think it's a reliable stat. You can't say that Raphael Diaz is more defensively responsible than Subban. That guy doesn't even have a contract.  My guess for +/- is player usage. I didn't look at the stats, but Therrien mostly played Markov and Emelin with Pacioretty/Desharnais/Vanek/Gallagher and Subban with the Plekanec and fourth lines. I do know that for one game Therrien paired Subban with Murray against the Ovechkin line, so maybe Ovechkin lit Murray up for ten goals.

    I do know from watching Subban for his pro career that he's great defensively.  People have these concepts of "offensive and defensive" defensemen that don't hold any water. How good defensively does Doughty have to be when his team has the puck 60% of the time?  Subban cannot be forechecked.  The Rangers solved that to an extent with a two man forecheck, but most teams don't have that kind of speed to take the risk. PK has a perfect first pass. For me, if you can spend most of your time in the offensive zone like he does, wouldn't you rather have that on your team? Not every defenseman who has high point totals is Phil Housley or Erik Karlsson. Raymond Bourque was great on defense.

    To his credit, when he was paired with Markov, that was the best pairing in the league from October until Decemeber when it was broken up. Shea Weber has played with Ryan Suter most of his career. Ottawa went out and got Karlsson Marc Methot. Chara has played with Wade Redden and Seidenberg. Subban has played mostly with Hal Gill, Alexadre Picard, Francis Bouillon and Josh Gorges.  None of those guys are #2 defensemen.

    The contract is a great deal. Free agency sucks. Players like Subban don't go to free agency anymore, so if you have someone who is top-5 at his position, you pay big money.  There's no other replacement. The deal will be a big one now, but look better down the road. Jay Bouwmeester was paid almost 7 million dollars aav five years ago. Phaneuf makes 7. Doughty was given 7 million coming off of his ELC with a Norris nomination and after a down year.

    Bottom line for me is that the Canadiens have Subban, Pacioretty and Price and pay 1.2 million less than Vancouver. Vancouver has the declining Sedins and Bieksa, that's it.  They pay less than Toronto, who are a giant trashfire.  Tampa Bay has one superstar and they're over the cap. How does that work? Do you want to give a big deal to Subban or Ryan Callahan. The big players should make big money. Then success comes down to keeping players on the roster who are on ELCs and bridge deals.

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    Jesus H. Mary, reading a couple of my own posts today and I'm starting to wonder why I'm defending P.K so much. I mean, he's fun to watch, adds to the rivalry etc..but other than that I'd love nothing more than to see Lucic put him in the 3rd row.

    For petes sake, I'm running out of things to talk about in the B's forum. I'm almost tempted to start a goalie equipment thread.  I've ventured over to the Pats forum, seeing how they're playing tonight and what a shocker. Every thread is either people fighting with Rusty or threads dedicated to people fighting with Rusty. Both consist of his lies and misinformation.

    Season cannot start soon enough.

     

    Go read my appeal for an award for second year players.  Not only is it interesting and about hockey, NAS thinks it's a veiled shot at him and his Panters.  So there's two things to weigh in on, and not one of them is Subban.

    [object HTMLDivElement]

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    Bottom line for me is that the Canadiens have Subban, Pacioretty and Price and pay 1.2 million less than Vancouver. Vancouver has the declining Sedins and Bieksa, that's it.  They pay less than Toronto, who are a giant trashfire.  Tampa Bay has one superstar and they're over the cap. How does that work? Do you want to give a big deal to Subban or Ryan Callahan. The big players should make big money. Then success comes down to keeping players on the roster who are on ELCs and bridge deals.



    Ah....the Canucks and the Laffs...bringing rival fanbases together in mutual contempt.

    On +/-

    To be useful in any way, you have to look at it relative to team, and in combination with PPP.  If you add Markov's +/- to his PPP, his goal differential is +33.  Gorges was +6, but had 0 PPP.  Subban was +19 (+/-) + PPP.  Douglas Murray is a trainwreck.   Only Markov, Desharnais, Pacioretty and Pleckanc had a better number than Subban on Montreal. 

    Torey Krug, by that measure, was +37.  That probably tells you you have to do something to take strength of team into account.

    Chara has played more games with players like Johnny Boychuk, Doug Hamilton and a bunch of turkeys prior to that than with Seidenberg in the regular season.  I'm not sure Marc Methot helps your case - and Karlsson was actually better with Kuba than with Methot.

    I don't like Subban because of that thing stuck to his chest.  I acknowledge he's not exactly a second pairing PP specialist.  If I was a Montreal fan, I would have no issue with them paying him to be the #1D on the team but that would mean $7M, not $9M.

    No idea why you'd pick steve out of all the possible targets, but credit for using bloviate in a phrase....


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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    Bottom line for me is that the Canadiens have Subban, P



    Ah....the Canucks and the Laffs...bringing rival fanbases together in mutual contempt.

    On +/-

    To be useful in any way, you have to look at it relative to team, and in combination with PPP.  If you add Markov's +/- to his PPP, his goal differential is +33.  Gorges was +6, but had 0 PPP.  Subban was +19 (+/-) + PPP.  Douglas Murray is a trainwreck.   Only Markov, Desharnais, Pacioretty and Pleckanc had a better number than Subban on Montreal. 

    Torey Krug, by that measure, was +37.  That probably tells you you have to do something to take strength of team into account.

    Chara has played more games with players like Johnny Boychuk, Doug Hamilton and a bunch of turkeys prior to that than with Seidenberg in the regular season.  I'm not sure Marc Methot helps your case - and Karlsson was actually better with Kuba than with Methot.

    I don't like Subban because of that thing stuck to his chest.  I acknowledge he's not exactly a second pairing PP specialist.  If I was a Montreal fan, I would have no issue with them paying him to be the #1D on the team but that would mean $7M, not $9M.

    No idea why you'd pick steve out of all the possible targets, but credit for using bloviate in a phrase....


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    I picked him because he seems like a smart guy who knows hockey and is picking any stat possible to denigrate Subban. PK spent more than any other Hab on his "funny suit trip" attire. According to Stevegm, he did that because he think he's better than everyone.

     

    But that's it for me! Thanks for listening.

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

      

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    There it is.  

     

    Fact is...Subban has some glaring weaknesses, which in many cases, negate his strengths.  He's a talent, a very good player, no question.  But he's a long way from the leagues best defenseman, and he's being paid best defenseman money.



    What are his glaring weaknesses? And how do they negate his strengths?




     



    We don't have to go very deep, or get too subjective and nit-picky to find a few.  That's the nice thing about glaring weakness.

    Any weakness is minimized/maximized, depending on salary.  I think we can all agree on that.  If you're the highest paid at your position in the league, your expected to excell across the board, and lead in several categories.

    1.  He's a defenseman, and he doesn't defend very well.  His +/- is ranked 214th among defensemen.  I know that doesn't mean everything, but in PK's case, it means more than most.  Montreal is a pretty good team defensively.  They only had around 200 gaa.  That makes him look worse.  The fact his team won't put him on the ice in a kill situation further drives the point home about a "glaring" defensive downside.  The Olympics, despite the protest of some, is an example of his defensive shortcomings.

    Though not a "glaring weakness",  all the hoopla about his offense is blown out of proportion and exagerrated.  His shooting accuracy is a myth.  He's ranked 108th among dmen in shooting %.  He gets more pp time than virtually any other dman, and he's nowhere near the top of the list in dman pp goals.  He got 4 measly pp goals.  10 goals total last year.  He was top 5 for dmen in assists.  That's about the only category I can find, where he actually performs to elite status.

    He's ranked 59th among dmen in blocked shots.  Not great in anyones book.  Neither is 46th in Hits.  He's ranked 57th among league dmen in Take Aways, and only 5 current NHL calibre D-men had more Giveaways last year.  That one is glaring.

    When you break down his body of work, it's easy to see his strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously that could change, but right now he's the leagues highest paid dman.  Offensively, there are several who are better.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt however, and put him in the category of elite offensive defensman.  Defensively, he doesn't even get a sniff at "adequate" categorically.

    His overall body of work in no way matches his overall ability, and I'm quite thrilled with that. 



    So much wrong with this statement.

    This is what happens when someone goes by stats because they don't know what they are watching.

    108th in shooting pct. I can't argue that, your right. After watching him play, I would agree 107 other players have a better shot than him.

    Zdeno Chara is ranked 28th among defenseman in hits. Brent Bellmore and Jan Hejda who are ranked higher than him in this category are clearly more physical. Considering they play significantly less than him and have more hits It would be easy to convince someone who doesn't watch the game that they are more of physical presence than him.

    Cody Franson had a 119 more hits than Zdeno Chara.

    He doesn't kill penalties.

    Here are the top 30 defesneman in the league last year for short-handed time on ice. Give me 3 that you would take ahead of Subban.

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLDADALL&sort=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&=timeOnIce" rel="nofollow">http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLDADALL&sort=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce" rel="nofollow">http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?viewNamefetchKey=20142ALLDADALL&sort=avgShortHandedTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

    Going by the stats you've provided, Subban is an average player at best.

    Now tell me this. The team you coach is about to play the Canadiens in a 7 game playoff series. Which player on that team concerns you the most? Who are you going to prepare most for?




     



    I've never said he wasn't a good player Kel.  I said he wasn't top 5 in my books....and certainly not "the" best Dman in the league as his salary suggests.  I didn't say hits meant the whole world, or plus/minus, or playing on the kill.  I didn't say giveaways meant he was a dud.  The inference is just that "all" of things added together suggest he has a way to go before laying any claim to the billing his salary now suggests.

     

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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Very interesting responses.  I don't think Subban is bad defensively, for the record.  I think he's more of a risk taker than the others in his pay grade, and I think that can hurt the team (when the opponent actually makes him pay...ahem...).  I don't think he stays in position as much as he should, but I realize that some of his more impactful plays are contingent on having the freedom and creativity to play instinctively. 

    I thought he put himself way out of position against the Bruins a few times (one badly missed run at Lucic comes to mind) in key points of the games, and the Bruins were infuriating to watch bumbling the opportunities.  I didn't think he looked real good defensively against the Rangers either.

    That said, being the best skater on the ice never hurts.  I think his outlet passing and changing directions is fantastic and he seems to work out of jams with ease.  He can render the forecheck useless.  He keeps you guessing defensively too, because he can easily flatten you one time (ask Marchand) or just take the puck the next time.  Obviously he's a terror offensively for any Bruin fan.

    I think they overpaid though.  Whether it really matters or whether they "had too" is a different issue to me.  I don't think he's a top-5 league player.  If you think that is just my bias talking, you should have heard me carrying on about Duncan Keith after the Hawks beat the Bruins in the SC.  I think Keith is noticeably better than Subban.  Maybe that will change -- he should keep getting better.  My guess is that in 3 years people are still more likely to view Subban as overpaid than otherwise.  Bookmark this thread...

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    I've never said he wasn't a good player Kel.  I said he wasn't top 5 in my books....and certainly not "the" best Dman in the league as his salary suggests.  I didn't say hits meant the whole world, or plus/minus, or playing on the kill.  I didn't say giveaways meant he was a dud.  The inference is just that "all" of things added together suggest he has a way to go before laying any claim to the billing his salary now suggests.



    Only a fool would think the top paid guy is the best guy by default.  If all contracts were canceled and the players signed one by one with an eye on everyone else's deals, this may be the case.  

    It's not, so drop that idea and soap box corner.

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    I've never said he wasn't a good player Kel.  I said he wasn't top 5 in my books....and certainly not "the" best Dman in the league as his salary suggests.  I didn't say hits meant the whole world, or plus/minus, or playing on the kill.  I didn't say giveaways meant he was a dud.  The inference is just that "all" of things added together suggest he has a way to go before laying any claim to the billing his salary now suggests.



    Only a fool would think the top paid guy is the best guy by default.  If all contracts were canceled and the players signed one by one with an eye on everyone else's deals, this may be the case.  

    It's not, so drop that idea and soap box corner.



    only a fool would interpret everything I've written on this subject to mean that, which btw....alighns very closely to what the majority are saying.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    "I said he wasn't top 5 in my books....and certainly not "the" best Dman in the league as his salary suggests."

    stevegm, sometimes I honestly wonder if you have two separate personalities.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Books Evil Twin has arrived.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

      

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    There it is.  








    We don't have to go very deep, or get too subjective and nit-picky to find a few.  That's the nice thing about glaring weakness.

    Any weakness is minimized/maximized, depending on salary.  I think we can all agree on that.  If you're the highest paid at your position in the league, your expected to excell across the board, and lead in several categories.

    1.  He's a defenseman, and he doesn't defend very well.  His +/- is ranked 214th among defensemen.  I know that doesn't mean everything, but in PK's case, it means more than most.  Montreal is a pretty good team defensively.  They only had around 200 gaa.  That makes him look worse.  The fact his team won't put him on the ice in a kill situation further drives the point home about a "glaring" defensive downside.  The Olympics, despite the protest of some, is an example of his defensive shortcomings.

    Though not a "glaring weakness",  all the hoopla about his offense is blown out of proportion and exagerrated.  His shooting accuracy is a myth.  He's ranked 108th among dmen in shooting %.  He gets more pp time than virtually any other dman, and he's nowhere near the top of the list in dman pp goals.  He got 4 measly pp goals.  10 goals total last year.  He was top 5 for dmen in assists.  That's about the only category I can find, where he actually performs to elite status.

    He's ranked 59th among dmen in blocked shots.  Not great in anyones book.  Neither is 46th in Hits.  He's ranked 57th among league dmen in Take Aways, and only 5 current NHL calibre D-men had more Giveaways last year.  That one is glaring.

    When you break down his body of work, it's easy to see his strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously that could change, but right now he's the leagues highest paid dman.  Offensively, there are several who are better.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt however, and put him in the category of elite offensive defensman.  Defensively, he doesn't even get a sniff at "adequate" categorically.



    Yeah, just to step in, always fun when a rival fan responds with a respectful post, right? I follow the Habs like you all follow the Bruins. Great discussions here, and when you follow the Bruins as much as you do, and the Habs as much as I do, you know your stuff. Except for Steve la Demon Blo(nde)viator, who I think is Guy Lafleur's kid. He just knows it all, and delivers his knowledge with the logical arguments that rival Plato and Aristotle. To address many nonsensical points with my specialized knowledge of 90-110 Habs games a year....

    The points are in the order they are in bold:

    1. Let's not get into a plus minus debate. In one breath, you swear the Habs are one of the better teams in the league, and that has nothing to do with Subban. Who only led them in ice-time last year...hmm. They also were one of the lower teams in goal differential. So clearly, when you play around 25-30 minutes a game with a near negative goal differential that reflects in plus-minus, correct?

    2. The Olympics Debate. Ahh, where careers are judged on two weeks every four years. Babcock will not play defensemen on their offsides. Subban, Doughty, Weber and Pietrangelo were all righties. Or, if you may, half of the best defensemen in the league.  Keith, Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhuis are lefties.  Doughty and Weber were locks because of 2010, and Pietrangelo was starting because of Hitchcock (as was Bouwmeester). The difference in caliber between those two (PK and Pietrangelo) are small. Either way, based on opinion. I will say that at this stage of the game, Weber and Doughty are better on the right side. But if you think that Subban is worse than Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhius, well, I guess you might also think plus-minus is relevant? Ok, so we solved that argument. (PS: How did Chara do in the Olympics)?

    3. The only category? "PK is this, Pk isn't that, blo-via-te, bloviate, bloviate." Do you know who leads NHL defensemen in scoring over the last two season? Yes, PK. Next!

    4. He ranks fifty-nine in blocked shots. His partners last year were Josh Gorges and Andrei Markov who were fourth and fifth in blocked shots. What should he do? Petition the league to use three pucks?  Let's see...

    5. Giveaways-what happens to players who carry the puck more than others. I'm no advanced stats guy, but the issue with giveaways, besides the odd breakaway, is the breakdown in possession. Who kills it in possession stats? SUBBAN

    6. "Defensively, he doesn't get a sniff." This is just precious. What's worse is that this guy has the self-awareness of a plenaria. He will watch Subban play in every game in the rest of his life while suffering from confirmation bias. Subban gives up the puck, he's right. Subban is on for a goal, he's right. Subban sits for a shift, he's right again. 

     



    1.  All of the other 5 dmen who I feel are better play significant minutes too. And they all have a better +/- than PK.  The only thing more stupid than proclaiming +/-  to be completely definitive...is to infer it means absolutely nothing.

    2.  Maybe you should respond to what people are saying.  No one is saying Subban is worse than Bowmeester, Vlasic and Hamhuis.  Some are saying you could have both Bowmmester and Vlasic for comparable money, and that would be an upgrade.  Most are saying that Chara, Keith, Doughty,Weber and Suter are currently better.  I agree with them.

    3.  PK lead the league last year, and regressed to 5th this year.  Not what you like to see from someone who will "only get better".  Karlsson blew PK away offensively this year, and only played 17 games last year.  Karlsson scores more per game than PK, which you conveniently left out.  More importantly, virtually no one considers Karlsson to be the leagues best defenseman.  I gave PK credit for his offense, and now you're trying to trash me by exagerating his strength in that area????

    Next.

     

    4. Your most assinine comment yet.  I guess any Bruin dman not named Boychuck, Chara, or Seidenberg shouldn't be expected to block shots, because those guys blocked em all.  Krug, Millar, Bart, Hamilton and company...they should petition for 3 pucks too.

    5. Again, Subban is in close company to Ericsson, who most don't have in their top 5.  Although a bit worse in this area than PK, his Takeaway stats are much better.  Doughty, Chara, Keith, Weber and Suter all fare better in this category.  Thanks for making me have to expand on that a bit.

    6.  bloviate, bloviate, bloviate.  You really shouldn't be bringing up anyones awareness.  Like many here, I agree he is a special talent.  I'm just not in agreement he's top 5 in the league, and not sold on the fact he's going to get a lot better. 

  •  
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    "I said he wasn't top 5 in my books....and certainly not "the" best Dman in the league as his salary suggests."

    stevegm, sometimes I honestly wonder if you have two separate personalities.



    and which personality are you addressing?

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:



     

    I picked him because  is picking any stat possible to denigrate Subban. PK spent more than any other Hab on his "funny suit trip" attire. According to Stevegm, he did that because he think he's better than everyone.

     

     




    huh?????????

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from stevethebloviatingmachine. Show stevethebloviatingmachine's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to stevethebloviatingmachine's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

      

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    There it is.  








    We don't have to go very deep, or get too subjective and nit-picky to find a few.  That's the nice thing about glaring weakness.

    Any weakness is minimized/maximized, depending on salary.  I think we can all agree on that.  If you're the highest paid at your position in the league, your expected to excell across the board, and lead in several categories.

    1.  He's a defenseman, and he doesn't defend very well.  His +/- is ranked 214th among defensemen.  I know that doesn't mean everything, but in PK's case, it means more than most.  Montreal is a pretty good team defensively.  They only had around 200 gaa.  That makes him look worse.  The fact his team won't put him on the ice in a kill situation further drives the point home about a "glaring" defensive downside.  The Olympics, despite the protest of some, is an example of his defensive shortcomings.

    Though not a "glaring weakness",  all the hoopla about his offense is blown out of proportion and exagerrated.  His shooting accuracy is a myth.  He's ranked 108th among dmen in shooting %.  He gets more pp time than virtually any other dman, and he's nowhere near the top of the list in dman pp goals.  He got 4 measly pp goals.  10 goals total last year.  He was top 5 for dmen in assists.  That's about the only category I can find, where he actually performs to elite status.

    He's ranked 59th among dmen in blocked shots.  Not great in anyones book.  Neither is 46th in Hits.  He's ranked 57th among league dmen in Take Aways, and only 5 current NHL calibre D-men had more Giveaways last year.  That one is glaring.

    When you break down his body of work, it's easy to see his strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously that could change, but right now he's the leagues highest paid dman.  Offensively, there are several who are better.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt however, and put him in the category of elite offensive defensman.  Defensively, he doesn't even get a sniff at "adequate" categorically.



    Yeah, just to step in, always fun when a rival fan responds with a respectful post, right? I follow the Habs like you all follow the Bruins. Great discussions here, and when you follow the Bruins as much as you do, and the Habs as much as I do, you know your stuff. Except for Steve la Demon Blo(nde)viator, who I think is Guy Lafleur's kid. He just knows it all, and delivers his knowledge with the logical arguments that rival Plato and Aristotle. To address many nonsensical points with my specialized knowledge of 90-110 Habs games a year....

    The points are in the order they are in bold:

    1. Let's not get into a plus minus debate. In one breath, you swear the Habs are one of the better teams in the league, and that has nothing to do with Subban. Who only led them in ice-time last year...hmm. They also were one of the lower teams in goal differential. So clearly, when you play around 25-30 minutes a game with a near negative goal differential that reflects in plus-minus, correct?

    2. The Olympics Debate. Ahh, where careers are judged on two weeks every four years. Babcock will not play defensemen on their offsides. Subban, Doughty, Weber and Pietrangelo were all righties. Or, if you may, half of the best defensemen in the league.  Keith, Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhuis are lefties.  Doughty and Weber were locks because of 2010, and Pietrangelo was starting because of Hitchcock (as was Bouwmeester). The difference in caliber between those two (PK and Pietrangelo) are small. Either way, based on opinion. I will say that at this stage of the game, Weber and Doughty are better on the right side. But if you think that Subban is worse than Bouwmeester, Vlasic and Hamhius, well, I guess you might also think plus-minus is relevant? Ok, so we solved that argument. (PS: How did Chara do in the Olympics)?

    3. The only category? "PK is this, Pk isn't that, blo-via-te, bloviate, bloviate." Do you know who leads NHL defensemen in scoring over the last two season? Yes, PK. Next!

    4. He ranks fifty-nine in blocked shots. His partners last year were Josh Gorges and Andrei Markov who were fourth and fifth in blocked shots. What should he do? Petition the league to use three pucks?  Let's see...

    5. Giveaways-what happens to players who carry the puck more than others. I'm no advanced stats guy, but the issue with giveaways, besides the odd breakaway, is the breakdown in possession. Who kills it in possession stats? SUBBAN

    6. "Defensively, he doesn't get a sniff." This is just precious. What's worse is that this guy has the self-awareness of a plenaria. He will watch Subban play in every game in the rest of his life while suffering from confirmation bias. Subban gives up the puck, he's right. Subban is on for a goal, he's right. Subban sits for a shift, he's right again. 

     



    1.  All of the other 5 dmen who I feel are better play significant minutes too. And they all have a better +/- than PK.  The only thing more stupid than proclaiming +/-  to be completely definitive...is to infer it means absolutely nothing.

    2.  Maybe you should respond to what people are saying.  No one is saying Subban is worse than Bowmeester, Vlasic and Hamhuis.  Some are saying you could have both Bowmmester and Vlasic for comparable money, and that would be an upgrade.  Most are saying that Chara, Keith, Doughty,Weber and Suter are currently better.  I agree with them.

    3.  PK lead the league last year, and regressed to 5th this year.  Not what you like to see from someone who will "only get better".  Karlsson blew PK away offensively this year, and only played 17 games last year.  Karlsson scores more per game than PK, which you conveniently left out.  More importantly, virtually no one considers Karlsson to be the leagues best defenseman.  I gave PK credit for his offense, and now you're trying to trash me by exagerating his strength in that area????

    Next.

     

    4. Your most assinine comment yet.  I guess any Bruin dman not named Boychuck, Chara, or Seidenberg shouldn't be expected to block shots, because those guys blocked em all.  Krug, Millar, Bart, Hamilton and company...they should petition for 3 pucks too.

    5. Again, Subban is in close company to Ericsson, who most don't have in their top 5.  Although a bit worse in this area than PK, his Takeaway stats are much better.  Doughty, Chara, Keith, Weber and Suter all fare better in this category.  Thanks for making me have to expand on that a bit.

    6.  bloviate, bloviate, bloviate.  You really shouldn't be bringing up anyones awareness.  Like many here, I agree he is a special talent.  I'm just not in agreement he's top 5 in the league, and not sold on the fact he's going to get a lot better. 




    I said I wouldn't post here, but you deserve closure after being lit up like a Christmas tree...nay, a Christmas tree that was having sex with a space ship.

     

    1. Plus-minus is a completely irrelevant stat. Also, this is a team stat. There are five players on the ice who receive a plus and minus at once. I don't read here enough to know, but judging from your posts tearing down Subban, this is probably the first time you've brought it up in months.  The disparities in plus-minus make it an irrelevant stat. Not since FoxTrac has plus-minus been an acceptable topic to evaluate player performance.

    2. If adding Bouwmeester and Vlasic is an upgrade over Subban, why did the Habs make the ECF while St Louis got booted in the first round? The Blues have three number one defensemen, so if the Habs added an extra you say they would be better.

    3. Subban had almost 70 points in 99 games last year with a condensed schedule. If that's regression, how good is he going to be anyways? A more astute observer, like myself, would tie his "regression" to the decline in the Canadiens PP from one year to the next. He also has a very correctable issue of shooting closer to the blueline than the faceoff dot. 

    4. Correct. When you play on a pairing with one of the top 5 shot blockers no matter what, your blocked shots totals go down. Have you seen a blocked shot? This is a different situation than three or four defenders in soccer defending a free kick from 18' out. Who is going to be in front of the net?

    5. Are we talking about Loui Eriksson, Erik Karlsson or Jonathan Ericcson?  You can take any player and find a stat against them.  A takeaway is a pretty random thing. As "bad"as Karlsson is, he gives the puck up a little over once a game.  Markov was tenth in giveaways while he was a +12. Where does that fit in with your paradigm? Carey Price was 47th in giveaways, lol.   Sekera, Karlsson and Byfuglien were the three defensive leaders in takeways. Don't include these stats to say PK is worse than people who don't lead them.  Your arguments are like a tangled extension cord.

    6. Your entitled to your opinion. Even if it's wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Torey Krug, by that measure, was +37.  That probably tells you you have to do something to take strength of team into account.


    Depends on what you think of the defensman's ability to get the puck out of the zone, first pass and who his partner is ?

    Does Subban or Krug's partners make them better or the other way around ?

    Redden fell apart, after Chara left, like when Brick left Skipper (Bow Tennessee Williams). Weber hasn't missed a beat without Suter. Karlsson isn't going change his approach, like Krug, no matter who his partner is.

    Case by case.

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Books Evil Twin has arrived.  



    I am the evil twin.


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