A Different Look At Finances

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Very interesting responses.  I don't think Subban is bad defensively, for the record.  I think he's more of a risk taker than the others in his pay grade, and I think that can hurt the team (when the opponent actually makes him pay...ahem...).  I don't think he stays in position as much as he should, but I realize that some of his more impactful plays are contingent on having the freedom and creativity to play instinctively. 

    I thought he put himself way out of position against the Bruins a few times (one badly missed run at Lucic comes to mind) in key points of the games, and the Bruins were infuriating to watch bumbling the opportunities.  I didn't think he looked real good defensively against the Rangers either.

    That said, being the best skater on the ice never hurts.  I think his outlet passing and changing directions is fantastic and he seems to work out of jams with ease.  He can render the forecheck useless.  He keeps you guessing defensively too, because he can easily flatten you one time (ask Marchand) or just take the puck the next time.  Obviously he's a terror offensively for any Bruin fan.

    I think they overpaid though.  Whether it really matters or whether they "had too" is a different issue to me.  I don't think he's a top-5 league player.  If you think that is just my bias talking, you should have heard me carrying on about Duncan Keith after the Hawks beat the Bruins in the SC.  I think Keith is noticeably better than Subban.  Maybe that will change -- he should keep getting better.  My guess is that in 3 years people are still more likely to view Subban as overpaid than otherwise.  Bookmark this thread...

     

    [/QUOTE]


     The voice of reason in a thread gone to hell...

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Great thread !


     


    My tidbit ; For the next couple seasons it's almost a wash , considering Chara's cap and advantage on his shut down skills,  but I'll give the Bruins a small advantage . After that it's advantage team Subban-Price. 


     


    I've always been a fan of Subban's skill , you knew he was going to be something special his first playoff against the Pens . He really stood out , his skating, his shot and even his play against Crosby (Jacques Martin had some confidence in his defense) . He even had a little Marchand in him mouthing off to Malkin and Crosby all series and it worked ! In 3years from now Subban's will not seem overpaid.


     


    BTW OatesCam you said " Marchand isn't a $9 million player. "  nor was Subban the past couple years.  And as far as not playing on the PK , in which I think with a coach like Julien Subban would also be on the PK, it's Therrien's coaching that doesn't allow it. He did similar to Crosby when he was with the Pens limiting him to TOI.


     


    Goaltending is still up to debate , Rask not performing well against the Habs is baffling . I have to give Price the advantage for now . The fact is it's 1-0  thus far, Price just outplayed Rask last playoffs.  They'll be more match ups and I'm sure Rask's competitiveness will make him better and beat Price in the future.


     


    As a Bruins fan I'm dreading their duo, I'm just hoping they don't progress more than they've already, I wish.


     


     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Very interesting responses.  I don't think Subban is bad defensively, for the record.  I think he's more of a risk taker than the others in his pay grade, and I think that can hurt the team (when the opponent actually makes him pay...ahem...).  I don't think he stays in position as much as he should, but I realize that some of his more impactful plays are contingent on having the freedom and creativity to play instinctively. 

    I thought he put himself way out of position against the Bruins a few times (one badly missed run at Lucic comes to mind) in key points of the games, and the Bruins were infuriating to watch bumbling the opportunities.  I didn't think he looked real good defensively against the Rangers either.

    That said, being the best skater on the ice never hurts.  I think his outlet passing and changing directions is fantastic and he seems to work out of jams with ease.  He can render the forecheck useless.  He keeps you guessing defensively too, because he can easily flatten you one time (ask Marchand) or just take the puck the next time.  Obviously he's a terror offensively for any Bruin fan.

    I think they overpaid though.  Whether it really matters or whether they "had too" is a different issue to me.  I don't think he's a top-5 league player.  If you think that is just my bias talking, you should have heard me carrying on about Duncan Keith after the Hawks beat the Bruins in the SC.  I think Keith is noticeably better than Subban.  Maybe that will change -- he should keep getting better.  My guess is that in 3 years people are still more likely to view Subban as overpaid than otherwise.  Bookmark this thread...

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I love this post. Everything about it. I wish I could turn my thoughts into words like this.

    I'm just of the thought that when I have a guy like Subban and his skill level, I want him to take those chances. 8 out of 10 he's going to be on the right end of them. He makes a mistake, doesn't faze him. Drew Doughty did this recently in the playoffs. Coughed up the puck against the Rags and it ended up in the back of the net. Moments later found himself in the same situation and did the exact same thing, except this time he scored. Zero hesitation.  Like the bad play never happened.

    Keith is as smooth as they come, and a lot of the stuff he does goes unnoticed. But for me, if I can pick one for one game, give me Chara, Karlsson, Subban, or Doughty. Don't care which one.  Each has their own strength but each one has the ability to impact a game significantly more than most of their peers. Plus, they are fun to watch. Next time you watch the Sens play watch Karlsson carry the puck out of his end with speed. The forechecker starts backing up.  

    Doughty is 24 years old with 2 Stanley Cups and 2 Olympic Gold medals and WJC Gold medal. Can you imagine what his resume is going to look like at 34?




     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    I wonder why nobody has brought up the 32-0-2 record the Habs had after leading after 2 periods? Was Subban benched for the entire 3rd in those games? Going back and watching some 3rd periods there was one where he played 12 minutes of the 3rd and scored a goal and assisted on another in it. So, if his d is that awful why would Therrien still put him out there in a one goal game? The plus/minus category doesn't wash for me as far as d-men go.  It's a far better looking stat for forwards. The forwards like Ovie for instance can kill a d-mans plus/minus. If Montreal's forwards are lack at the defensive end of the rink while Subban is trying to do his magic; of course he's the one that's going to look bad. The reason why this doesn't happen to Boston is that "Everyone" on the team buys into the system and that's why even a player from Providence can come in and be a plus player for them. Having a player like Subban has its drawbacks only if the rest of the team doesn't help by not covering the risk PK is making. But, you need that risk taken, because your eliminating one of your biggest threats if you don't.  

    "Why is a puck called a puck? Because Dirty little bastar d was taken!"- Marty Brodeur

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wonder why nobody has brought up the 32-0-2 record the Habs had after leading after 2 periods? Was Subban benched for the entire 3rd in those games? Going back and watching some 3rd periods there was one where he played 12 minutes of the 3rd and scored a goal and assisted on another in it. So, if his d is that awful why would Therrien still put him out there in a one goal game? The plus/minus category doesn't wash for me as far as d-men go.  It's a far better looking stat for forwards. The forwards like Ovie for instance can kill a d-mans plus/minus. If Montreal's forwards are lack at the defensive end of the rink while Subban is trying to do his magic; of course he's the one that's going to look bad. The reason why this doesn't happen to Boston is that "Everyone" on the team buys into the system and that's why even a player from Providence can come in and be a plus player for them. Having a player like Subban has its drawbacks only if the rest of the team doesn't help by not covering the risk PK is making. But, you need that risk taken, because your eliminating one of your biggest threats if you don't.  

    "Why is a puck called a puck? Because Dirty little bastar d was taken!"- Marty Brodeur

    [/QUOTE]

    Beauty post.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Virtually no one puts him in the top 5 currently.    Therefore, doesn't it seem kind of  ridiculous, he's about to earn 16% more than the leagues highest paid dman.

    And even more ridiculous that the Habs handed this out when they didn't really need to.....after steadfastly insisting we was only worth a little over half that.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'd say Subban is top 5. How would he not be top 5 and Keith is? Also, I'd say Subban has the best shot amongst defesneman. Chara and Weber may shoot harder but Subban has the better shot. Chara rarely gets one off. And for one-timers, only Stamkos is equal to him.




     

    [/QUOTE]


    Seriously?  Keith is far beyond Subban.  It's not even close.  He puts up more points.  He is among the best defensive defenseman in the game.  A proven winner.  When Keith gets benched for a poor game or his coach doesn't trust him with a key penalty kill, talk to me.  Keith, Chara, Weber, Doughty, Suter, Karlsson... all clearly better.  Kronwall, Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Carlson, Giordano, and Shattenkirk are all in the same ballpark for my money.  Guys like Yandle and Hedman are certainly not far off.

    I agree on the shot thing though.  Stamkos is the only shooter in the league more dangerous with a one-timer.  Seguin is pretty good. Subban's shot alone makes him valuable, just not Duncan Keith valuable.

    [/QUOTE]

    How many games have you seen Duncan Keith play?

    Keith is good, but he doesn't play against the other teams top lines as much as Oduya and Hjalmarsson do. If he was one of the best defensive d-men in the league he'd be out there against the other teams top lines more than them.

    I wouldn't put John Carlson in that company. I'd have Ekman-Larsson in there before him.

    I would take Keith on my team any day. Just not ahead of Subban who has more of an impact on a game than he does.

     




     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    I've seen Keith play a tonne.  I think he's one of the best in the game, if not the best.  I might take him over Chara.  He's in with Chara, Weber and Doughty for sure.

    Carlson is not in that group, but I do think he's in a group with Subban.  I'd probably take him over PK.  I would definitely take him over PK once salary is concerned. I'm a fan of his play.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've seen Keith play a tonne.  I think he's one of the best in the game, if not the best.  I might take him over Chara.  He's in with Chara, Weber and Doughty for sure.

    Carlson is not in that group, but I do think he's in a group with Subban.  I'd probably take him over PK.  I would definitely take him over PK once salary is concerned. I'm a fan of his play.

    [/QUOTE]


     Agree about Keith. Not to take anything away from Subban but anyone watching the two will notice that Keith is just that much better at his position. Calm, smooth, in control, and consistent. Same with Doughty, Weber, and Chara....the current elite of the NHL. Subban simply isn't quite there yet.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've seen Keith play a tonne.  I think he's one of the best in the game, if not the best.  I might take him over Chara.  He's in with Chara, Weber and Doughty for sure.

    Carlson is not in that group, but I do think he's in a group with Subban.  I'd probably take him over PK.  I would definitely take him over PK once salary is concerned. I'm a fan of his play.

    [/QUOTE]


     Agree about Keith. Not to take anything away from Subban but anyone watching the two will notice that Keith is just that much better at his position. Calm, smooth, in control, and consistent. Same with Doughty, Weber, and Chara....the current elite of the NHL. Subban simply isn't quite there yet.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    And I say he is. He's not a Weber or a Doughty, but he's certainly a better than Keith. You put Keith on the Habs & he wouldn't be as effective. Brent Seabrook helps Keith be the d-man he is. Not saying Keith isn't elite, but he would never have the same impact that Subban has on Montreal. The difference between the 2 is that Subban would show better defensive stats in Chicago. Whereas if you put Keith with Montreal he wouldn't have the same offensive numbers. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from socca10. Show socca10's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    "The plus/minus category doesn't wash for me as far as d-men go. It's a far better looking stat for forwards."

    Please explain this. To me this is one of the most telling stats for a d-man: when I'm on the ice, the other team doesn't score (or conversely, they score more than we do). As a defenseman, my first job is to prevent goals, no matter how much of a fancy turtle-skater I may be. A minus for the season in that category - on a playoff team, no less - says I can't generally do my most important job.

    Maybe a part of that is coaching (the flip side of the Keith argument I made), but I can't imagine why this stat doesn't wash for the D.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wonder why nobody has brought up the 32-0-2 record the Habs had after leading after 2 periods? Was Subban benched for the entire 3rd in those games? Going back and watching some 3rd periods there was one where he played 12 minutes of the 3rd and scored a goal and assisted on another in it. So, if his d is that awful why would Therrien still put him out there in a one goal game? The plus/minus category doesn't wash for me as far as d-men go.  It's a far better looking stat for forwards. The forwards like Ovie for instance can kill a d-mans plus/minus. If Montreal's forwards are lack at the defensive end of the rink while Subban is trying to do his magic; of course he's the one that's going to look bad. The reason why this doesn't happen to Boston is that "Everyone" on the team buys into the system and that's why even a player from Providence can come in and be a plus player for them. Having a player like Subban has its drawbacks only if the rest of the team doesn't help by not covering the risk PK is making. But, you need that risk taken, because your eliminating one of your biggest threats if you don't.  

    "Why is a puck called a puck? Because Dirty little bastar d was taken!"- Marty Brodeur

    [/QUOTE]

    Beauty post.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Three interpretations here that I don't necessarily agree with, nite, or maybe I'm missing details. 

    Subban playing 12 minutes in a third period: why on earth would any coach play one guy 60% of a period in the regular season unless it was because of injuries?  Seems like the kind of outlier that doesn't suggest Subban is a defensive stalwart so much as the guy best able to take that ice.

    The one goal lead thing: are you saying that the 12 minute 3rd period game was a one goal game?  Because the first time I read this, I thought you were suggesting that all 30+ games the Scabs won when leading at the second intermission were one goal games.  I'm also not inclined to give Pernell additional credit for the stat just as I'm not downgrading my perception of his offensive gifts because Montreal  only won 3 games all year when trailing after two.  Only Columbus, Nashville, Dallas and Toronto were weaker in that regard.

    Philosophically, I disagree with your risk point.  It's the crux of the Ovechkin debate we've had on this board and many more: do you allow a player with exceptional offensive prowess the latitude to take risks you wouldn't allow to all of your players?  It tend to think about in terms of how exceptional skills reduce the risk inherent in certain types of play rather than in terms of increased potential rewards.  Pernell skating the puck through two forecheckers when he's last man back is less risky because of his ability to handle the puck at speed.  Pernell vacating a lane to go for the hip check on the winger as he makes a pass into said vacated lane...just as risky and stupid as any other player.  Ovechkin blowing the zone as soon as the other team loses secure possession of the puck (rather than when his team secures the puck) is no less risky than any other player racing out and leaving his team 5 on 4, but if they hit him on the break, he's much more likely to score.

    So - I wouldn't let Pernell take risks because he's more likely to goose the offense, but I'd let him take risks that others wouldn't because he has a much better chance of making the play - reduced risk - and that might then lead to scoring chances.


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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    And I say he is. He's not a Weber or a Doughty, but he's certainly a better than Keith. You put Keith on the Habs & he wouldn't be as effective. Brent Seabrook helps Keith be the d-man he is. Not saying Keith isn't elite, but he would never have the same impact that Subban has on Montreal. The difference between the 2 is that Subban would show better defensive stats in Chicago. Whereas if you put Keith with Montreal he wouldn't have the same offensive numbers. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Much respect Nite but this is just where we disagree. Yes Keith has Seabrook but Subban also has Markov who is no slouch (I actually like Markov quite a bit). Would Subban put up more points in Chicago? Probably but that is because that is his bread and butter. I would hazard to guess that if Bowman offered Keith for Subban straight up tomorrow Bergevin would not hesitate. 2-3 years from now that may be different but as it stands right now this is what I think.

    By the way, we may be able to see pretty soon what Keith can do without Seabrook as there are rumours Bowman may be shopping him.....that would be very interesting indeed :)

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wonder why nobody has brought up the 32-0-2 record the Habs had after leading after 2 periods? Was Subban benched for the entire 3rd in those games? Going back and watching some 3rd periods there was one where he played 12 minutes of the 3rd and scored a goal and assisted on another in it. So, if his d is that awful why would Therrien still put him out there in a one goal game? The plus/minus category doesn't wash for me as far as d-men go.  It's a far better looking stat for forwards. The forwards like Ovie for instance can kill a d-mans plus/minus. If Montreal's forwards are lack at the defensive end of the rink while Subban is trying to do his magic; of course he's the one that's going to look bad. The reason why this doesn't happen to Boston is that "Everyone" on the team buys into the system and that's why even a player from Providence can come in and be a plus player for them. Having a player like Subban has its drawbacks only if the rest of the team doesn't help by not covering the risk PK is making. But, you need that risk taken, because your eliminating one of your biggest threats if you don't.  

    "Why is a puck called a puck? Because Dirty little bastar d was taken!"- Marty Brodeur

    [/QUOTE]

    Beauty post.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Three interpretations here that I don't necessarily agree with, nite, or maybe I'm missing details. 

    Subban playing 12 minutes in a third period: why on earth would any coach play one guy 60% of a period in the regular season unless it was because of injuries?  Seems like the kind of outlier that doesn't suggest Subban is a defensive stalwart so much as the guy best able to take that ice.

    The one goal lead thing: are you saying that the 12 minute 3rd period game was a one goal game?  Because the first time I read this, I thought you were suggesting that all 30+ games the Scabs won when leading at the second intermission were one goal games.  I'm also not inclined to give Pernell additional credit for the stat just as I'm not downgrading my perception of his offensive gifts because Montreal  only won 3 games all year when trailing after two.  Only Columbus, Nashville, Dallas and Toronto were weaker in that regard.

    Philosophically, I disagree with your risk point.  It's the crux of the Ovechkin debate we've had on this board and many more: do you allow a player with exceptional offensive prowess the latitude to take risks you wouldn't allow to all of your players?  It tend to think about in terms of how exceptional skills reduce the risk inherent in certain types of play rather than in terms of increased potential rewards.  Pernell skating the puck through two forecheckers when he's last man back is less risky because of his ability to handle the puck at speed.  Pernell vacating a lane to go for the hip check on the winger as he makes a pass into said vacated lane...just as risky and stupid as any other player.  Ovechkin blowing the zone as soon as the other team loses secure possession of the puck (rather than when his team secures the puck) is no less risky than any other player racing out and leaving his team 5 on 4, but if they hit him on the break, he's much more likely to score.

    So - I wouldn't let Pernell take risks because he's more likely to goose the offense, but I'd let him take risks that others wouldn't because he has a much better chance of making the play - reduced risk - and that might then lead to scoring chances.


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    Talk to the hand book! Nobody is going to change their mind. The only thing that is preventing people from accepting the fact that Subban is an elite d-man in this league right now is hatred! 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    And I say he is. He's not a Weber or a Doughty, but he's certainly a better than Keith. You put Keith on the Habs & he wouldn't be as effective. Brent Seabrook helps Keith be the d-man he is. Not saying Keith isn't elite, but he would never have the same impact that Subban has on Montreal. The difference between the 2 is that Subban would show better defensive stats in Chicago. Whereas if you put Keith with Montreal he wouldn't have the same offensive numbers. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Much respect Nite but this is just where we disagree. Yes Keith has Seabrook but Subban also has Markov who is no slouch (I actually like Markov quite a bit). Would Subban put up more points in Chicago? Probably but that is because that is his bread and butter. I would hazard to guess that if Bowman offered Keith for Subban straight up tomorrow Bergevin would not hesitate. 2-3 years from now that may be different but as it stands right now this is what I think.

    By the way, we may be able to see pretty soon what Keith can do without Seabrook as there are rumours Bowman may be shopping him.....that would be very interesting indeed :)

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Seabrook helps Keith's D, Markov helps Subban's O.  Markov is a fantastic set-up man.  Remember that time when Sheldon Souray put up 26 goals and 38 assists?  Subban's best two years have come as he got older, but also when he had a healthy Markov to play with.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Put Subban in Boston, Chicago or LA in place of those mentioned.  PK hasnt been surrounded by quality leaders and coaches.  PKs game is getting more complete and better every year.  At 25 he still hasnt touched his peek yet.  PK is an absolute beast in the playoffs as well.  

    Id take pk everyday and twice on sundays

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]


      Markov is a fantastic set-up man.  Remember that time when Sheldon Souray put up 26 goals and 38 assists?  

    [/QUOTE]


    I do remember that. Made the Devils look like fools for getting rid of him and leveraged that terrific year into a monster contract with EDM.  Hope he gave Markov a suitable "thank you" gift!

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    And I say he is. He's not a Weber or a Doughty, but he's certainly a better than Keith. You put Keith on the Habs & he wouldn't be as effective. Brent Seabrook helps Keith be the d-man he is. Not saying Keith isn't elite, but he would never have the same impact that Subban has on Montreal. The difference between the 2 is that Subban would show better defensive stats in Chicago. Whereas if you put Keith with Montreal he wouldn't have the same offensive numbers. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Much respect Nite but this is just where we disagree. Yes Keith has Seabrook but Subban also has Markov who is no slouch (I actually like Markov quite a bit). Would Subban put up more points in Chicago? Probably but that is because that is his bread and butter. I would hazard to guess that if Bowman offered Keith for Subban straight up tomorrow Bergevin would not hesitate. 2-3 years from now that may be different but as it stands right now this is what I think.

    By the way, we may be able to see pretty soon what Keith can do without Seabrook as there are rumours Bowman may be shopping him.....that would be very interesting indeed :)

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Seabrook helps Keith's D, Markov helps Subban's O.  Markov is a fantastic set-up man.  Remember that time when Sheldon Souray put up 26 goals and 38 assists?  Subban's best two years have come as he got older, but also when he had a healthy Markov to play with.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah older at 23-24.  Wait till hes 29.  Markov only partnered with pk bc gorges was hurt last year.   They do form a nice pair though.  PK simply put hasnt had the guys around him like the other 3 horses do.  

    PS.  I think Keith looked terrible at the olympics and was much better in the playoffs.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]


      Markov is a fantastic set-up man.  Remember that time when Sheldon Souray put up 26 goals and 38 assists?  

    [/QUOTE]


    I do remember that. Made the Devils look like fools for getting rid of him and leveraged that terrific year into a monster contract with EDM.  Hope he gave Markov a suitable "thank you" gift!

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Probably a poster of his girlfriend

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Probably a poster of his girlfriend

    [/QUOTE]


    That would do nicely!!

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Yeah older at 23-24.  Wait till hes 29.  Markov only partnered with pk bc gorges was hurt last year.   They do form a nice pair though.  PK simply put hasnt had the guys around him like the other 3 horses do.  

    PS.  I think Keith looked terrible at the olympics and was much better in the playoffs.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Wowzers.  I think Keith looked better than Subban in the Olympics, no?  Oh...joking.

    Lots of debate here with Kane and Toews et al in the picture, but I remain convinced that Keith led the Hawks to the 2013 Cup more than anyone else.  He was the guy the Bruins had no answer for.  He consistently broke up the dump and chase, carried the puck out of trouble, sprang the outlet pass that ushered speed through the neutral zone, ran the powerplay, and chipped in plenty of offense.  He played in all situations.

    Subban does a lot of this stuff too, and he's moving into Keith's class.  But I remember some posters here that were very concerned with Stanley Cups and which guys can lead their team all the way through the playoffs and win a Cup.  Keith has done it twice, while PK looked great for two rounds this year before laying an egg against the Rangers.

    They were both on pretty good playoff teams last year.  Keith was +22; Subban -4.  Keith had more points in less games.

    He's also 6 years older, so PK might catch up.  He's not there yet though.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Put Subban in Boston, Chicago or LA in place of those mentioned.  PK hasnt been surrounded by quality leaders and coaches.  PKs game is getting more complete and better every year.  At 25 he still hasnt touched his peek yet.  PK is an absolute beast in the playoffs as well.  

    Id take pk everyday and twice on sundays

    [/QUOTE]

    You crazy.  PK was a beast against Boston.  He was a disaster against Ottawa last year and a no-show against NY this year.  He's a "great while the going's good" type of player.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    The thread title is finances.  It should be no surprise that many are questioning PK's financials.  Many would also argue that Ovechkins and Malkins aren't great either, and that shouldn't be twisted to insist anyone thinks they are average, or worse.

    The discussion here, is simply value, and whether there are 5 or so better dmen currently in the league. 

    One common argument "for', is that the money will look like a deal down the road.  Maybe, but the pickle most of the best NHL teams find themselves in right now, is simply because the Cap isn't going up as much as everybody assumed.  

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    PK Subban is a #1 D in this league.  That means he's in the top 30 players at his position.  I don't know that anyone will dispute that.  Is he top 15?  Top 10?  Top 5? Top 2?

    If I'm looking at him head to head against all other D in the league - like I'm picking a team for a pickup game (note: game - I'm not starting a franchise or paying for him), the order would go something like:

    Doughty

    Weber

    Chara

    Keith

    Doug Hamilton (I kid, I kid...)

    Suter

    _______ Top 5

    ...and then I'd have trouble putting the next 6 in order:

    McDonagh  (Pernell is better offensively, McDonagh less of a gambler to get his points)

    Pietrangelo (offensive results are similar, length and reach make AP more of a cooler than Pernell)

    Karlsson (better offensively, good at using his skating to play D, not nearly as physical as Pernell)

    Ekman-Larsson (not exceptional in any one area like Pernell, but total package is comparable to Pernell)

    Giordano (Who knows what this guy could do on a competitive team?  Different skills, similar numbers to Pernell)

    Subban. (is Pernell)

    On any given day, I think Pernell is the 6th to 12th best D in the league.  So nite (and others) take that into consideration when I criticize his play.  I'm not saying I'd take Johnny Boychuk over him or even Dennis Seidenberg.  I might take Hamilton over him, long term, though.

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    On the Hamilton point, just for the record, Pernell had .494 points/game and .444 p/g his first two years in the NHL.  Hamilton has been between .38 and .39 p/g both years.  It'll be curious to see if he can ever catch up to Pernell's scoring pace, especially the .905 and .656 pace of the last two years.  I doubt any d-man scores at that clip under CJ.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

      I doubt any d-man scores at that clip under CJ.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Key point right there...although I do think PK has more raw offensive talent. However, Hamilton may one day be a better all-round defenseman if he keeps progressing the way he is.

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Me thinks...

    Carlson

    Niskanen

    Burns

    Josi

    Sekera

    ...Will be joining top ten, top 15 debate very soon.

    PS. My how Seabrook in conversations, not in play, has dropped from the defenseman rankings. 

     

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