a fair working arrangement between the league and players

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    a fair working arrangement between the league and players


    Many have posted their thoughts on negotiations to date.  Virtually all have picked a side, but few have offered up what they feel would be a fair and practical deal for everyone involved moving forward.  Knowing the general biggies within the current deal, those presented by the league, and those countered by the players, what kind of compromise would we come up with if we were responsible for the new deal.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    - A player must play 10 seasons before qualifying for unrestricted free agency. This will be toned down a bit by adding a year to EL contracts. Owners are going to be strong on this one. Giving a year on EL contracts would be a start.

    - Contracts would be no longer than five years. - Players would probably say seven years compromise could be six years.

    -- Salary arbitration would be eliminated. This will be a sticking point as it seems there would be no compromise and the players won't cave on this one. It's fair and shpuld be kept. When you say fair though i don't think of the NHL owners board of directors.

    -- Entry-level contracts would last five years instead of three. Four years could be a compromise and help with the 10 years the owners want the players to wait before becoming a UFA.

    The roll back is significant and one that will be another sticking point, the owners want allot. The cap going down as far as the owners want it to will be very tough but the mid to high $60Ms would be a good starting point.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    -- A player must play 10 seasons before qualifying for unrestricted free agency. This will be toned down a bit by adding a year to EL contracts. Owners are going to be strong on this one. Giving a year on EL contracts would be a start. -- Contracts would be no longer than five years. - Players would probably say seven years compromise could be six years. -- Salary arbitration would be eliminated. This will be a sticking point as it seems there would be no compromise and the players won't cave on this one. It's fair and shpuld be kept. When you say fair though i don't think of the NHL owners board of directors. -- Entry-level contracts would last five years instead of three. Four years could be a compromise and help with the 10 years the owners want the players to wait before becoming a UFA. The roll back is significant and one that will be another sticking point, the owners want allot. The cap going down as far as the owners want it to will be very tough but the mid to high $60Ms would be a good starting point.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    Looks good.  I am a firm believer in 5 year max deals with an avg increase in salary(or raise).  I think contracts should have performance bonuses.
    IE- Joe Smith signs a 5 yr deal for 25 million.  4 million each year with the 1 million left for performance bonus.  If bonus isnt reached IE (30 goals) then no money. 
    I also believe contracts shouldnt be guaranteed.  Make 35% guarantee on contracts...I love that football players arent bigger then the organization.  If you stink you are gone.  Tks for the memories.  Now beat it. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    People are literally starving in Africa & other third world countries and billionare owners & millionare players can't get on the same page on how to divide over 3 billion ? Now that's a sad state of affairs !
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players


    -Revenue split as per current accounting method.  players 49.5 % owners 50.5%
    the players have zero input in terms of how the league works, or the success of it's team, so they don't even need to be in on the conversation of revenue sharing.  the league can figure that out on it's own.  10 year deal on this one facet of the contract, as this needn't be revisted every few years, virtually guaranteeing a work stoppage
    -Contracts can be any duration, however, yearly salary must be divided by the number of years, and any amount paid per year goes against cap.  If a player retires, quits, or other,.... payment is stopped, the cap hit is removed, and that player remains property of the current team for the time remaining on his contract. 
    The cap is the cap is the cap.  This gives the owners lots of protection, the latitude to run their businesses, and both sides the opportunity to forge lasting relationships.
    -Entry level contracts as is.  This protects the teams investment for a reasonable amount of time, while not exploiting the earning power of those most deserving.
    -RFA and UFA eligbility one year later.  Gotta be considered fair, and that's not gonna kill anyone.  No more  offer sheets.
    -Arbitration to stay as is.  Gotta be some kind of appeal process in anything.
    -No performance bonuses, signing bonuses or other BS. Just more smoke and mirrors.  They can't be projected easily and they just convolute things.  Teams have their 49.5%. Pay players what you're comfortable paying them.
     -Zero tolerence for any team over the cap.  49.5% max on opening nite. 
    If you want to hide salary in the AHL, fill your boots, there will be no competitive advantage, just fiscal pain.


    although there's much more, I think this covers off the big stuff and is fair for everyone.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    I am 100% on board with the owner's proposal.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    Put the entire world on base + commission, watch how fast "problems" disappear
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from juniorfalcon19. Show juniorfalcon19's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    People are literally starving in Africa & other third world countries and billionare owners & millionare players can't get on the same page on how to divide over 3 billion ? Now that's a sad state of affairs !
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan



    this is the stupidest thing i've heard. They are deciding how to divide over THREE BILLION. of course it's going to take some serious negotations. If you were an elite hockey player you would want to make sure that the owners weren't getting rich off you while you weren't making a fair amount based on the fact that you are the product that is bringing in all the money. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    I am 100% on board with the owner's proposal.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    The players swallowed a 24% rollback with the last negotiations and now you think they should take another hit of 11% of their revenue sharing amoung other things ? The owners got everything they wanted last time around & now they are crying foul. How much more do the players have to absorb ? Don't expect the players to cave in this time around.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : this is the stupidest thing i've heard. They are deciding how to divide over THREE BILLION. of course it's going to take some serious negotations. If you were an elite hockey player you would want to make sure that the owners weren't getting rich off you while you weren't making a fair amount based on the fact that you are the product that is bringing in all the money. 
    Posted by juniorfalcon19


    That's one way to look at it- another would be that without the owners providing the opportunity for players to become millionaires, where would they be?

    Maybe the players could start their own league, with their own buildings, marketing, health care, travel expenses, TV revenue...etc... It's called owning a business, and it doesn't come along with a guarantee that the people working for you should be concerned with the fact they they think you might "be getting rich" off of your investments.

    Someone just got offered 14 yrs and 100 million dollars. Where's the concern for that guy 'getting rich" off the owners ???

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : The players swallowed a 24% rollback with the last negotiations and now you think they should take another hit of 11% of their revenue sharing amoung other things ? The owners got everything they wanted last time around & now they are crying foul. How much more do the players have to absorb ? Don't expect the players to cave in this time around.
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan


    I'm sure the owners didn't want UFAs at seven years or 27 years old. 

    I do not feel bad for someone who was making $3M a year that had to drop to $2.25M and is now at $6M being asked to drop to $5.3M. 

    The owners own the company.  The employees, and that's what these guys are, they are employees, get paid what the owners want to pay them.

    To success that these guys are victims who have to "absord" more trechery to the tune of not making enough millions is sheer lunacy to me.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    People are literally starving in Africa & other third world countries and billionare owners & millionare players can't get on the same page on how to divide over 3 billion ? Now that's a sad state of affairs !
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan


    Truth.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from juniorfalcon19. Show juniorfalcon19's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : That's one way to look at it- another would be that without the owners providing the opportunity for players to become millionaires, where would they be? Maybe the players could start their own league, with their own buildings, marketing, health care, travel expenses, TV revenue...etc... It's called owning a business, and it doesn't come along with a guarantee that the people working for you should be concerned with the fact they they think you might "be getting rich" off of your investments. Someone just got offered 14 yrs and 100 million dollars. Where's the concern for that guy 'getting rich" off the owners ???
    Posted by JWensink

    what i'm saying is it's ridiculous to say that there are people starving so these guys shouldn't take a long time to come to an agreement. Its 3 billion dollars, if I had a say I would most definitely want my voice heard. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    -Revenue split as per current accounting method.  players 49.5 % owners 50.5%. I think the players will give up more in the end, even though that is fair.

    -Contract any duration. I just don't see the owners backing off this one. 6 or 7 max is what I think the owners would agree too. I don't think that this is a terrible thing for the palyers to agree with.

    -EL contract as is. You are right it would be fair but the owners aren't. Veterans are negotiating this deal not rookies. I could see the NHLPA conceiving because well what the heck they aren't rooks what do they care. Then the Vets can say "hey we gave you rookies to you for two more years let us stay at 27 or 28 years old for UFA elgibility"

    -RFA to UFA eligibility. See EL reasoning   

    -Arbitration. Absolutely don't back off this one very fair

    -No performance bonuses, signing bonuses. Correct let the Rookies earn it!

    -Zero tolerance for any team over the cap. Gotta agree with Fehr on this one. Let the rich owners screw up! Jacobs would never pay a luxury tax anyways.

    I think the above is unfair for the players but my thinking is what will get a deal done that the filthy owners will except.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : what i'm saying is it's ridiculous to say that there are people starving so these guys shouldn't take a long time to come to an agreement. Its 3 billion dollars, if I had a say I would most definitely want my voice heard. 
    Posted by juniorfalcon19


    Yeah, I understand. It just never ends well when the free agents, offer sheets and out of control salaries take over the culture of a Pro sports league. You could have Tyler Seguin doing an exclusive interview someday with Jim Grey stating the he is going to take his talents to Souf Beech. Just hate seeing such a great and unique product heading towards NBA and MLB land. And I have no problems with the owners making profits for paying millions of dollars to their employees. Brad Marchand and Shawn Thronton are millionaires - what's so bad?
    And nobody is telling them they have to earn their living playing NHL hockey, there are other leagues and other professions. Just tired with the sense of entitlement, and outrage for business owners getting rich in our society in general.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : Yeah, I understand. It just never ends well when the free agents, offer sheets and out of control salaries take over the culture of a Pro sports league. You could have Tyler Seguin doing an exclusive interview someday with Jim Grey stating the he is going to take his talents to Souf Beech. Just hate seeing such a great and unique product heading towards NBA and MLB land. And I have no problems with the owners making profits for paying millions of dollars to their employees. Brad Marchand and Shawn Thronton are millionaires - what's so bad? And nobody is telling they have to earn their living playing NHL hockey, there are other leagues and other professions. Just tired with the sense of entitlement, and outrage for business owners getting rich in our society in general.
    Posted by JWensink


    Finally someone agrees with me.

    What's all this talk about a "fair" deal?  Fair for whom?  Why should the owners have to offer a fair deal to their employees?  This is a job.  When was the last time you went to the owner of a company and informed him that you've been working there for three years, doing a great job, and now you want a 100% raise?

    The owners have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in their businesses.  They are allowed, by law, to make as much money as they can and want.  This thinking that the workers need a "fair" deal is against the free enterprise our societies are built upon.

    I shed no tear for hockey players that cannot become UFA until the age of 31, or can't make more millions when they are currently living the lifestyle that most people on the planet dream about.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    The NHL has a monopoly, the owners should decide what they want to give the players on a revenue sharing basis, 50% to 50% sounds great.  Yet, slavery is illegal, so the players imnsho should be UFA always! The only contingent is what Shupe stated, the players contracts are not guaranteed.  

    Point of information, the owners have a monoply but the players will never have UFA status once drafted!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    Players in sports bring millions of dollars in to franchises. Fans buy tickets to events, apparel and concessions, that is a few ways athletes bring $ to sports franchise owners. Kovalchuck didn't get a 100% a year raise when he moved to New Jersey ($7.5M to $11M a year). Ilya got what the owner of the Devils offered him or another owner would have paid him.

    The owners owe hundreds of millions to banks that financed their arenas and purchases of teams. Rarely do sports franchise owners spend their own savings on teams they usually finance the purchase. Allot of sports owners walk away from bankrupt franchises scot-free and when the banks go after the these billionaires they can't be touched because their money is hidden in tax shelters or overseas.

    I negotiated my salary plus commission with the owner of my company. I get paid to bring in money to the company I work for so should other employees that help bring money into their companies where thet are employeed.

    Unions had to come into play to help greedy factory owners. Ted Lindsay followed suite becuase he was taken advantage of.  That is very fair for any worker and for any proffesionel athlete to ask for a share of the wealth they were responsible for helping attain.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    I don't know if even the owners are 100% behind their proposal.

    I have no opinion on the right level for revenue tied to the cap.  I just have no idea what percentage of overall revenue owners fold back into the business in total.  Between rent/maintenance/management of their facilities, travel costs, coaching, scouting, marketing, tax, debt service, etc. etc., how much of the overall revenue should they be allowed to bank?  It's entirely possible that, for a small market team, their obligations to contribute at an equal rate to a 57% share is really 80% of their team revenue.  The revenue sharing may just be helping them pay the bills.

    I'm convinced RFA is stupid.  If the Weber deal wasn't enough to let a player walk, then no one is ever going to walk.  Let's recall that Burke had to trade to get Kessel - Chiarelli would have matched an offer.  The only function of RFA is insane inflation as teams look for ways to make stupid deals that managers have to walk away from - and they still don't.  Better to have some kind of tagging system like the NFL where, if you tag a particular player, his salary has to fall within certain parameters, but he also remains in your organization.

    Arbitration - total bust because the arbitrators are notoriously stupid.  They aren't equipped to make hockey judgments so they listen to arguments and comparables and pick a side.  Asinine.  It needs to be modified.  And I'd need it for the next point.

    EL contracts - four years, but a full year in the AHL doesn't burn a contract year.  Or the year counter doesn't kick in until the player plays more than 20 NHL games or 100 AHL games. So a four year deal means five years of the player's rights. Second deal should be no FA rights, but arbitration rights - like the MLB. Teams should be motivated not to abuse control by the arbitration rights, and four years is enough to decide if you want to offer a long or short term.

    Term limits only make sense in terms of controlling risk.  A 14 year deal is a huge risk to the viability of any franchise if the cap goes down, or if the player suffers a non-career ending injury that turns your Norris candidate into a 15min. a night 3rd pairing target.  Those deals might win someone a cup in year two and cost them their franchise if they become the albatross that drives them to bankruptcy.  Five years is as good a number as any.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : Finally someone agrees with me. What's all this talk about a "fair" deal?  Fair for whom?  Why should the owners have to offer a fair deal to their employees?  This is a job.  When was the last time you went to the owner of a company and informed him that you've been working there for three years, doing a great job, and now you want a 100% raise? The owners have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in their businesses.  They are allowed, by law, to make as much money as they can and want.  This thinking that the workers need a "fair" deal is against the free enterprise our societies are built upon. I shed no tear for hockey players that cannot become UFA until the age of 31, or can't make more millions when they are currently living the lifestyle that most people on the planet dream about.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Most people believe in fair play, and "jobs" are just as deserving of
     fairness as are minorities,  causes,  pets or anything else anyone can dream up.  Sure players make more money than most people on the planet, but they're underpaid compared to most others who are directly connected to high finance.
    Most of us are allowed to go to our employer after 3 years and ask for a 100% raise. If we're contributing 100% more than we were 3 years ago, that's fine. If not, we're dopes. It isn't legislated that we can't. Why should it be for hockey players?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    I am 100% on board with the owner's proposal.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    So you stand with the owners?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : Most people believe in fair play, and "jobs" are just as deserving of  fairness as are minorities,  causes,  pets or anything else anyone can dream up.  Sure players make more money than most people on the planet, but they're underpaid compared to most others who are directly connected to high finance. Most of us are allowed to go to our employer after 3 years and ask for a 100% raise. If we're contributing 100% more than we were 3 years ago, that's fine. If not, we're dopes. It isn't legislated that we can't. Why should it be for hockey players?
    Posted by stevegm


    You certainly can go ask for a 100% raise, but I'd be surprised if someone was making an $80K salary and three years later they're at $160K.  I'm sure it happens once in a while, but not as it does on average in hockey.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from G4ck5. Show G4ck5's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    Life is so tough for these players .... making millions playing a sport that they are suppose to love and have fun at. If you ask me let it be a lockout, so everyone loses money. I guess that 24% that the owners/players want is more important that 100% of their incomes for the year. If the players don't like it there is always the KHL, and Euro Elite leagues they can play for. Man sports players are so whinny and think that they should get every thing, its their mentallity that they think they are high and mighty. Its a SPORT! I don't agree with NAS at all of these forums most of the time, but for once he makes a valid point and is correct on this point.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from juniorfalcon19. Show juniorfalcon19's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : Yeah, I understand. It just never ends well when the free agents, offer sheets and out of control salaries take over the culture of a Pro sports league. You could have Tyler Seguin doing an exclusive interview someday with Jim Grey stating the he is going to take his talents to Souf Beech. Just hate seeing such a great and unique product heading towards NBA and MLB land. And I have no problems with the owners making profits for paying millions of dollars to their employees. Brad Marchand and Shawn Thronton are millionaires - what's so bad? And nobody is telling them they have to earn their living playing NHL hockey, there are other leagues and other professions. Just tired with the sense of entitlement, and outrage for business owners getting rich in our society in general.
    Posted by JWensink


    ya, i don't get why you made these posts against mine. I kinda agree with it
     
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