a fair working arrangement between the league and players

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE] Arbitration - total bust because the arbitrators are notoriously stupid.  They aren't equipped to make hockey judgments so they listen to arguments and comparables and pick a side.  Asinine.  It needs to be modified.  And I'd need it for the next point. Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    What % of overall arbitration rulings since 2000 have been a bust or stupid ?

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/adrian_dater/07/20/shea-weber-nhl-salary-arbitration/index.html

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2011/08/03/sp-arb-1995-2011.html

    Owners and GMs can walk away from any ruling they want if they think the arbitrator is an idiot. If the owners don't budge on the 5 year EL eligibility then I would agree I get rid of the arbitration but not because I think there is a high percentage of bad awards.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    Yup I kinda agree with Book on UFA status... .bogus aspect of the CBA.  But arbitration is a yawner..... Sandog is correct, walk away say the owners.  

    Ok Randomly thinking on the large picture! Reality sucks, as the real truth is in entertainment dollars is who controls the purse.  The players have a union not because of lack of pay but lack of share and respect in the entertainment dollar pie is not percieved equal.  I believe in capitalism (pie logic) but it is not solely for corporations but individuals as well.  In the owners monopolistic world, the recent CBA Cap is a positive, kudos goes to their thinking.   History is not an ally as the greed is not defined in the new CBA talks.  Why aren't fans asking for more evidence of the financial difficulties of these NHL owners?  Contrarily, the players are perceived greedy individually but who really is greedy?  Collectively the players are a victim of the few overpaid contracts of certain individual players but overall the greed is not evident given the lack of information coming from the NHL owners.  Again contrarily, the owners are looked upon collectively but not individually, but me thinks JJ has been preaching more of the revenue share in the past few years for corporate finance not for the spirit of the game.  If he is correct, then provide proof then we fans can objectively see the rationale, otherwise confusion exists today.  In conspiracy mode, none is forth coming from the owners, why, well, who controls the media?  Then I have to think Robert Krafts of the world  (JJs counter part in the NFL)  is a true believer in entertainment and players together.  The fans of this entertainment  business want facts not posturing circa 2012 as 2003 is not reality any more.  "It is a strange world we live in, Master Jack"!!!!  Funny how players are vilified and owners are honored in these CBA dealings.  Corpoate logic!  Individuals are ok if and only if they have the purse strings in a world gone mad.    
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]Yup I kinda agree with Book on UFA status... .bogus aspect of the CBA.  But arbitration is a yawner..... Sandog is correct, walk away say the owners.   Ok Randomly thinking on the large picture! Reality sucks, as the real truth is in entertainment dollars is who controls the purse.  The players have a union not because of lack of pay but lack of share and respect in the entertainment dollar pie is not percieved equal.  I believe in capitalism (pie logic) but it is not solely for corporations but individuals as well.  In the owners monopolistic world, the recent CBA Cap is a positive, kudos goes to their thinking.   History is not an ally as the greed is not defined in the new CBA talks.  Why aren't fans asking for more evidence of the financial difficulties of these NHL owners?  Contrarily, the players are perceived greedy individually but who really is greedy?  Collectively the players are a victim of the few overpaid contracts of certain individual players but overall the greed is not evident given the lack of information coming from the NHL owners.  Again contrarily, the owners are looked upon collectively but not individually, but me thinks JJ has been preaching more of the revenue share in the past few years for corporate finance not for the spirit of the game.  If he is correct, then provide proof then we fans can objectively see the rationale, otherwise confusion exists today.  In conspiracy mode, none is forth coming from the owners, why, well, who controls the media?  Then I have to think Robert Krafts of the world  (JJs counter part in the NFL)  is a true believer in entertainment and players together.  The fans of this entertainment  business want facts not posturing circa 2012 as 2003 is not reality any more.  "It is a strange world we live in, Master Jack"!!!!  Funny how players are vilified and owners are honored in these CBA dealings.  Corpoate logic!  Individuals are ok if and only if they have the purse strings in a world gone mad.    
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    Not sure how "monopoly" applies ?

    Matt Lashoff and Alex Kovalev are working



     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]Yup I kinda agree with Book on UFA status... .bogus aspect of the CBA.  But arbitration is a yawner..... Sandog is correct, walk away say the owners.   Ok Randomly thinking on the large picture! Reality sucks, as the real truth is in entertainment dollars is who controls the purse.  The players have a union not because of lack of pay but lack of share and respect in the entertainment dollar pie is not percieved equal.  I believe in capitalism (pie logic) but it is not solely for corporations but individuals as well.  In the owners monopolistic world, the recent CBA Cap is a positive, kudos goes to their thinking.   History is not an ally as the greed is not defined in the new CBA talks.  Why aren't fans asking for more evidence of the financial difficulties of these NHL owners?  Contrarily, the players are perceived greedy individually but who really is greedy?  Collectively the players are a victim of the few overpaid contracts of certain individual players but overall the greed is not evident given the lack of information coming from the NHL owners.  Again contrarily, the owners are looked upon collectively but not individually, but me thinks JJ has been preaching more of the revenue share in the past few years for corporate finance not for the spirit of the game.  If he is correct, then provide proof then we fans can objectively see the rationale, otherwise confusion exists today.  In conspiracy mode, none is forth coming from the owners, why, well, who controls the media?  Then I have to think Robert Krafts of the world  (JJs counter part in the NFL)  is a true believer in entertainment and players together.  The fans of this entertainment  business want facts not posturing circa 2012 as 2003 is not reality any more.  "It is a strange world we live in, Master Jack"!!!!  Funny how players are vilified and owners are honored in these CBA dealings.  Corpoate logic!  Individuals are ok if and only if they have the purse strings in a world gone mad.    
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    People will support unions and the players so they are treated fairly.

    ECHL and most AHL players must be sick to their shoes thinking about what's fair.  The players are not working in sweat shops for minimum wage.  They are not being forced to work 10 hours of OT without equal compensation.

    This is about one thing and one thing only:  Money.  And I think the players earn plenty.  It's not one or two bad contracts.  It's most of them.  With the cap where it is, many of the deals make sense.  In an overall view, most are absurd.

    Brandon Prust signs for four years, $10M.   The guy is set to make TEN MILLION DOLLARS.  He is a forward with 24 career NHL goals.  I know that players get paid for what they're expected to do, not what they've done, but this guy has never had 15 goals in a season and he's going to make more in the next four years than most of us will in our lives.

    I don't care how much money the TV contracts bring in, or what the final number the owners see in black is.  That is 100% ridiculous.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    JWensink, your point is understood.  The problem is both those players do not have the skills to play in the NHL, Kovalev is lazy.  As to the application of the word monopoly, if a player with skills wants to play in the best league in the world, that player must deal with owners who work together (collusion) as one organization through the existing CBA.  Now NAS has a point where as one owner in that organization can make a poor financial choice (Prust).  So if the owners need more of the revenue pie then provide evidence, open the books. The "Prust" contracts of the NHL then will seem understandable given the perceived financial hardship of the NHL owners.   If the argument is made public, money woes will be understood.  The consequence is NA fandom will not have sympathy for the NHLPA.  

    Mylogic:  the new CBA should be solely constructed by the owners or the NHL.  The players then should have full complete free agency status.  The players don't, so the NHLPA exists.  The CBA must not be one sided like in 2004, even though the owners were correct in demands for a CAP.  The argument though is no longer valid unless they provide evidence of financial hardship.  
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : People will support unions and the players so they are treated fairly. ECHL and most AHL players must be sick to their shoes thinking about what's fair.  The players are not working in sweat shops for minimum wage.  They are not being forced to work 10 hours of OT without equal compensation. This is about one thing and one thing only:  Money.  And I think the players earn plenty.  It's not one or two bad contracts.  It's most of them.  With the cap where it is, many of the deals make sense.  In an overall view, most are absurd. Brandon Prust signs for four years, $10M.   The guy is set to make TEN MILLION DOLLARS.  He is a forward with 24 career NHL goals.  I know that players get paid for what they're expected to do, not what they've done, but this guy has never had 15 goals in a season and he's going to make more in the next four years than most of us will in our lives. I don't care how much money the TV contracts bring in, or what the final number the owners see in black is.  That is 100% ridiculous.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    Some guys will record an "average" album in a week or 2, and make 10 mil.  Some will make a very ordinary movie that takes a couple months, and make 10 mil. Those are low end numbers compared to what the really big players make in those industries. Bar bands and kids in grade school plays must be sick to their shoes too.
    The above makes only one valid point.  "It's all about money". 
    Minor leaguers in any sport don't make the big bucks, cuz, pleople won't pay much to see em.
    With a 63 mil cap, it's pretty much law, that the best player on the planet can't make more than around 12.4 mil per. Compared to other sports and entertainment stars, that's low.  How the teams allocate the rest, to the Brandon Prust's of the world is their business.  It may be wise, it may not, however, they should have to take responsibility for something.  Otherwise, the smart move is to fire the millionaire GM's, and hire Stanley, at 30 grand a year.

    If you think the whole world has gone mad in terms of compensation fine.  If you think  NHL players are the problem though, you need a broader perspective.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    I don't need a better perspective, SteveGM.  I'm a very grounded person.

    My perspective:  I'm not going to sympathize with millionaire hockey players as they cry about money.

    The rest of what you wrote isn't really related to anything.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]JWensink, your point is understood.  The problem is both those players do not have the skills to play in the NHL, Kovalev is lazy.  As to the application of the word monopoly, if a player with skills wants to play in the best league in the world, that player must deal with owners who work together (collusion) as one organization through the existing CBA.  Now NAS has a point where as one owner in that organization can make a poor financial choice (Prust).  So if the owners need more of the revenue pie then provide evidence, open the books. The "Prust" contracts of the NHL then will seem understandable given the perceived financial hardship of the NHL owners.   If the argument is made public, money woes will be understood.  The consequence is NA fandom will not have sympathy for the NHLPA.   Mylogic:  the new CBA should be solely constructed by the owners or the NHL.  The players then should have full complete free agency status.  The players don't, so the NHLPA exists.  The CBA must not be one sided like in 2004, even though the owners were correct in demands for a CAP.  The argument though is no longer valid unless they provide evidence of financial hardship.  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    Providing the greatest opportunity to become a millionaire while competeing with the best players in the world doesn't make a monopoly.

    Anyone who wants "complete free agent status" should only sign one year contracts, or go work in another league of their choosing.

    Dennis Wideman is scheduled to make 100k a week - boofreakinhoo

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    oh those bad bad owners....  Fehr and the players right now have the upper hand on the public relations front and the owners look greedy. 
    Some are and will be bitter with the owners if there is a lockout.
    Sure the 1st proposal from the owners seemed greedy on their part to most, especially some of the media but it's part of a negotiation as many of you have stated.  I can see where the owners are headed, not the initial proposal and I stand by the owners. Only because it's their business , their risks and because  the players are making a fair amount of money for what they do and plus some i.e. endorsements.
    The NHL's revenues are not like the NBA, MLB and NFL and the hockey players need to understand they will not be paid as high as the stars in those other leagues.
    I ask why do the players want to know how much money the owners are making on non-hockey related revenues ?    
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    oh and one more thing, the owners do need these agreements to manage themselves from each other . There will always be one that'll take advantage of a current agreement and the competition has no choice to follow if they want to be competitive.  This is not only in hockey,  it's all around us in society. 
    Nothing wrong to legislate terms for millionaires, billionaires  .
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PINEwarmer. Show PINEwarmer's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : That's one way to look at it- another would be that without the owners providing the opportunity for players to become millionaires, where would they be? Maybe the players could start their own league, with their own buildings, marketing, health care, travel expenses, TV revenue...etc... It's called owning a business, and it doesn't come along with a guarantee that the people working for you should be concerned with the fact they they think you might "be getting rich" off of your investments. Someone just got offered 14 yrs and 100 million dollars. Where's the concern for that guy 'getting rich" off the owners ???
    Posted by JWensink[/QUOTE
    Who made the offer? One of the poor, struggling owners with his back to the wall financially because of the big contracts the players forced him to offer to retain their services. And another of the poor owners matched the offer. When they (the owners) aren't busy figuring a way to screw the players, they are busy screwing each other. Please spare me sad songs about the plight of the owners
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    Players have to get less than 50%, if they are looking for 50% then they are being unrealistic. I'd say if the players can get 40% of the revenue they should take it and run. I've read that the players refer to their relationship with the owners as a "partnership".  It is not a "partnership since the players don't assume any of the overhead costs. This is wishful thinking since the players get paid but do not have to pay insurance, other employees which there are many, health costs for those employees, facilty maintanence and all of the other numerous costs that come from owning a hockey team/arena.

    I don't think the owners are being greedy, I think they are being realistic.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]I don't need a better perspective, SteveGM.  I'm a very grounded person. My perspective:  I'm not going to sympathize with millionaire hockey players as they cry about money. The rest of what you wrote isn't really related to anything.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    most very grounded people don't see the need to bring it up.  most don't see the need to proclaim their IQ is higher than most NHLers, and most don't disagree that a working arrangement should be fair.
    just a few examples of opinions you've brought to the table recently.
     
    you support the owners, which is your right, however, any reasoning you come up with, to validate that opinion, is hopelessly flawed with simple generalizations.
    And "not related to anything"....it's much more indicitive of the overall system, than the salary of one Brandon Prust.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    JWensink, I cannot agree anymore with the statement if a player does not want to sign a one year contract then he can sign elsewhere.  I also agree a player should not be locked into a CBA contract or an individual contract by any entity. That is not in the same spirit of capitalism that makes that owner and individual to do what he or she wishes in an equalitarian society.  

    Reality su@ks!  The players have a right to organize a union if one entity is taking advantage of individual rights to work as free laborer, millionaire or not.  The issue is "we" don't disagree reality, no person should retrict another to making the most money possible.  The Dartmouth College Case in US history established the right of contract but not servitude in my book.  A mixed metaphor but all I wish is a "level playing field". In other words the owners have a right to offer a player anything they wish, the skilled player consequently has the right to say no. So you are correct! If it is not just one year then it is questionable as to who is the slave and who is the master.  Unions exist because owners do not recognize the fact these skilled entertainment players have the right to make as they wish in line with the intent of the rights of the Constitution of the United States they so enjoy.  Simply put, CBAs are not legal in my mind. Libertarian in view! 

    OK, back to reality, the "Prusts" of the world are not greater or lesser than the JJs of the world.  I enjoy capitalism, yet I also believe corporations/organizations are not citizens or people.  Let us take TT as a example, he  is not my hero as he willingly signed the contract with said monetary benefits.  He was governed by a CBA and an agent contract when he signed.  If there was  not a larger term contract or a larger CBA contract, he has the right to market his skills just like JJ.  He can retire when he wishes!  

    Sorry for the  overblowen explanation, I just wish hockey would continue without blame.  Cheers you are one of the better posters on BDC. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]JWensink, I cannot agree anymore with the statement if a player does not want to sign a one year contract then he can sign elsewhere.  I also agree a player should not be locked into a CBA contract or an individual contract by any entity. That is not in the same spirit of capitalism that makes that owner and individual to do what he or she wishes in an equalitarian society.   Reality su@ks!  The players have a right to organize a union if one entity is taking advantage of individual rights to work as free laborer, millionaire or not.  The issue is "we" don't disagree reality, no person should retrict another to making the most money possible.  The Dartmouth College Case in US history established the right of contract but not servitude in my book.  A mixed metaphor but all I wish is a "level playing field". In other words the owners have a right to offer a player anything they wish, the skilled player consequently has the right to say no. So you are correct! If it is not just one year then it is questionable as to who is the slave and who is the master.  Unions exist because owners do not recognize the fact these skilled entertainment players have the right to make as they wish in line with the intent of the rights of the Constitution of the United States they so enjoy.  Simply put, CBAs are not legal in my mind. Libertarian in view!  OK, back to reality, the "Prusts" of the world are not greater or lesser than the JJs of the world.  I enjoy capitalism, yet I also believe corporations/organizations are not citizens or people.  Let us take TT as a example, he  is not my hero as he willingly signed the contract with said monetary benefits.  He was governed by a CBA and an agent contract when he signed.  If there was  not a larger term contract or a larger CBA contract, he has the right to market his skills just like JJ.  He can retire when he wishes!   Sorry for the  overblowen explanation, I just wish hockey would continue without blame.  Cheers you are one of the better posters on BDC. 
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    Had to read it 3 times...I think I got it now

    Isla - I think the owners are a bunch of over expanding money grubbing morons, who are heII bent to turn their league into MLB - them and the NHL brass disgust me. I don't think that disquailfies them from being on the right side of the equation. Even if the protection they desperately need is from themselves.

    I view the NHL as a workplace, not individual teams. So, IMO the free market is available to anyone who would like take their right to make as much as possible out for a spin. There are other places that will pay good money for hockey players besides the NHL. You know... like Minsk

    Eventually the B's will have to pay to keep the talent they put the entire franchise's(owners) resources behind to develop. That is called an investment - hate to lose a Lucic or Seguin because the 30 or 40 million we just offered isn't enough, or puts us over the cap. That is the slippery slope that the league is currently on.(see Nashville) There may be a legal argument for the reasons why that's the way it's supposed to work, but in reality it makes the entire game suffer, and sets the GPS to the putrid land where that NBA and MLB reside. NO THANKS , I love hockey for what it is, and most definitely for what it is not.

    Thanks for the comments, you are a jedi with the verbiage - made my hair hurt




     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : I think the owners are a bunch of over expanding money grubbing morons, who are heII bent to turn their league into MLB - them and the NHL brass disgust me.
    Posted by JWensink[/QUOTE]

    How so?

    I see MLB and the NHL as very, very different and on different paths.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players : How so? I see MLB and the NHL as very, very different and on different paths.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    Over expansion. watered down product, teams that don't compete financially, meaningless over hyped all star events, input from the networks, players salaries that have spiraled out of control, free agency dominates big market rosters, most fans know they will not be able to keep the stars on their team.,the holy grail has become the almighty dollar at the expense of the integrity of the game.

    Overall though, I'd say you're right,  MLB is not the best comparison. The salary cap makes a huge difference, maybe the NBA would be better (yuk). I'm just saying that I see the culture of the NHL headed straight towards the other major sports. Weber ...14 years and 100 million??? an excellent player, but seriously? I'd say the pendulum is swinging in the direction that the other leagues are in.

    Here's an example





     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    JWensink, thats for reading the short version of a long version of my thinking.  The verbage was more garbage, the thought simply, I think the owners and players are dealing with a CBA that is not fair to either.  I just want to watch hockey as baseball, basketball, even football do not compare to hockey.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players

    In Response to Re: a fair working arrangement between the league and players:
    [QUOTE]JWensink, thats for reading the short version of a long version of my thinking.  The verbage was more garbage, the thought simply, I think the owners and players are dealing with a CBA that is not fair to either.  I just want to watch hockey as baseball, basketball, even football do not compare to hockey.  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't agree more with that sentiment. It sure would be a long cold winter without it. Let's hope for the best ! Excellent thoughts from you as usual- Thanks

    Go Bruins
     

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