An look at #22 without gloves

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

       Get rid of the goons. I'm all for it.
    Getting rid of Thornton? Not so much.
    In a salary cap world, I think Thornton (pardon the pun),brings bang for your buck.
    I think he, and Campbell have kept Marchand from being killed out there. He's 5th on the team in goals, with less ice time, and zero powerplay time. And he is only about a million dollar cap hit.
    If you want Caron to get some ice time, I would much rather ship Paille out of town, and give Recchi some days off.
    Thornton seems to be one of the few guys on this team that doesn't take any nights off.
    He is the least of the bruins' problems.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    I love how people keep going back to "5th on the team in goals".  Maybe if he got less ice time, the guys who get paid to score goals would get more ice time, and they'd have more goals.


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from screw-cindy-and-ovie. Show screw-cindy-and-ovie's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves : Steve Downie by far. That guy is a goon.
    Posted by callodthedom19[/QUOTE]
    He scored like 19 goals last year. Goons dont score that mang goals
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves : Every time Cooke took the ice, a Bruin should have skated over to him, dropped the gloves and punched him in the face.  EVERY TIME. Instead, we get Thornton's staged fight, a calm "come get what's coming to you" fight a minute into the game and for the rest of the night, Cooke was a free man. And they lost the game anyway.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    ^This

    Actually, Thornton responding makes it easy for there to be a leadership void.
    What he does is just window dressing. I'd still keep him though, and get somebody who demands that EVERYBODY carries the load when it's needed. If that kind of bond doesn't exist on this team, it will eventually show itself in another way. This conversation is actually about a much bigger issue than Thornton's role. His repeated staged fights are really exposing a lack of committment and willingness throughout the rest of the roster. Hopefully this message has trickled down from Cam, and the Atlanta game was a turning point for the emotional make-up of this team. I'm skeptical, but hoping for the best.

    I'll never understand how Carcillo threw punches at Savard in the Philly series without someone going insane...like I said it will show itself in another way.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]I love how people keep going back to "5th on the team in goals".  Maybe if he got less ice time, the guys who get paid to score goals would get more ice time, and they'd have more goals.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    What kind of sense does that make?
    Maybe if he got more ice time and played on the powerplay, he could be leading the team in goals.
    Just because a guy is "tough", does not mean he can't play hockey.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves : Steve Downie by far. That guy is a goon.
    Posted by callodthedom19[/QUOTE]
    How true.Downey is the prototypical skating clown.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves : How true.Downey is the prototypical skating clown.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    The former first round pick had 22 goals last year.

    Yeah, he's no different than John Scott.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    SIGH! Sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut. This is one of those times for me.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]Lucic and Chara are paid big money b/c they are big players and should be on the ice.  BUT- they were given these contracts based on physical play and yes that involves fighting.  Personally I really like Thorton but he is the 2nd best fighter on the team.  And as much as I want Chara on the ice, I also want my Captain sticking his nose in the mix every chance he gets.  There is no fighting in the playoffs.  get your licks during the regular season.  I personally feel Chara's play is so much better when he hits and fights.  I know I wouldnt wanna play against him if he were being a nasty-borderline dirty player.  He used to be.  Got his contract and thinks he is Lidstrom. 
    Posted by shuperman[/QUOTE]
    I continue to wait for you to enlighten us all as to who these players are that Zee should fight.You've not given 1 example of chara having a legitimate opportunity(ie.willing partner)to fight and chose not to.We all know with the instigator penalties(escalate to suspensions)being in place,it's not like Chara can just skate up to someone and whale on them.The players  truly willing to fight him are meatheads(Boogard,etc.)so I'd rather he not bother with them.I'd really like to hear an example because you keep calling Chara out but not with anything factual.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    Downey had 200 plus penalty minutes last year, Thorton had 141.   Plus, Downey has a grand total of 3 goals this year, again with more PIMs.  Who's the goon?
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves : The former first round pick had 22 goals last year. Yeah, he's no different than John Scott.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]
    I never said he couldn't play hockey.I just think he's an absolute clown who's game I don't respect.Cheers.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]Downey had 200 plus penalty minutes last year, Thorton had 141.   Plus, Downey has a grand total of 3 goals this year, again with more PIMs.  Who's the goon?
    Posted by hangnail[/QUOTE]

    We see it differently, that's all.

    You appear to think that high penalty minutes makes someone a goon.  I disagree, along with Keith Tkachuk.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    Dez,

    Let's get into the chara debate for just a few minutes b/c neither of us can prove anything b/c we arent on the ice.  My point was strengthening N-O-T's point on how we have Chara/Lucic/Campy/Stuart and we really don't need a heavyweight enforcer.  I will throw these questions out.  And you answer them for me.
    1.  How many fights has Chara been in the last 2 yrs? 
    2.  How many times as the leader should he have jumped into the mix and made other teams think twice for taking out or attempting to injure teammates.  I can think of 4 off the top of my head.  Cooke, Gaustad, Orr and Carcillo.   By the way.  Orr did want a piece of Chara and was turned down.  If Chara destroys Orr in that instant after he pounded the younger Lucic I would be on here singing a different song.  That was the big defining moment for me with this guy.  The fact they played a week later and Begin was the man who stood up.  Embarrasing!!!! 
    3.  What are Chara's major strengths and what made him an elite player?  I will say he came in as a young banger who faught whenever needed and made a name for himself.  He was a raw talent, not many figured he would be this good.  I think what he did early on in his career have opened the lanes for the player he is now.  BUT- as a leader and captain of a team...sometimes you need to go crazy at times. 

    Ok.  we can debate this back and forth with no real evidence to support either side.  We have opinions.  If you want stats its easy to point out that his number of majors have dropped. 
    2000-2006 (31)
    2006-2011 (9)

    Dez, its hard to get a good read on what I am trying to point out over a message as well.  I really like Chara.  I just believe for him to be an elite player he needs to drop the gloves more.  I know that sounds stupid but there are occassions when a leader needs to do this.  Iggy does it often when his team needs a lift and normally gets in 4-6 fights a year.  Chara can battle with anyone in the league.  When he does he sets himself apart.  When he hammers people he sets himself apart.  I have also noticed more people take runs at him then in the past.  I just want his game to be complete.  If you like the Hal Gill version he provides then no arguments from me.  But when you make 7 million a year and wear the C I want more.  I want the intangibles that make him Big Z. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BuzzardBoots. Show BuzzardBoots's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    On Chara's fighting majors, as Shuperman pointed out

    2000-2006 (31)
    2006-2011 (9)

    Notice anything interesting about those dates?  2006 was his first year in Boston.  One year under Dave Lewis, the remaining years under Claude Julien - a defense-first coach of the highest order.

    If Chara is in the box for 5-minute stretches once a week (or however frequently), the defense takes a hit - thus Julien's system takes a hit.

    It's highly, highly likely that he is under strict orders from his coach to stay out of the scraps because he's that important to the defense.

    I would love to see him take one of the league punks (Avery, Ott, Carcillo, Cooke, et al) behind the woodshed - but it's unlikely to happen.  Knowing his past, it points to a coaching decision more than any "lack of heart" as some folks have insinuated on these boards.

    That's a pretty unfair indictment not fully knowing the situation the team (ie. the coach) is outlining for him.

    On the "Skating Clowns" mentioned in the orignal post: The Cup winning Ducks of 05-06 (Thornton being one of them) had 5 or 6 guys with 80+ penalty minutes - many of those from fighting majors.  This year, the Penguins are one of - if not THE - most pugilistic teams and it doesn't seem to be slowing their play down.

    Conclusion?  You may not like it or agree with the notion but it seems to work.  Time will tell us how well the Clown-less TB Lightning finish this season and how far they go in the playoffs...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    Chara does NOT need to drop his gloves more. Who affects your team the least with a broken hand, Chara, or Thorton ? Not even a question there. Chara ! Keep your gloves on. And Bigskye has it right. Why in heavens earth is there a thread talking about benching Thorton and affecting what is one of the best fourth lines in hockey ? Unreal. Yes I agree that youngins like Caron need to get into the game, but not at all expense. There are other players on the Bruin team that need to be addressed. Not Thorton.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]On the "Skating Clowns" mentioned in the orignal post: The Cup winning Ducks of 05-06 (Thornton being one of them) had 5 or 6 guys with 80+ penalty minutes - many of those from fighting majors. 
    Posted by BuzzardBoots[/QUOTE]

    05-06 Ducks didn't win the Cup or have Thornton, but here's their breakdown anyway.

    Rob Neidermayer:  89 PIM, one fight

    Scott Neidermayer:  96 PIM, zero fights

    Todd Fedoruk:  174, 15 fights

    Ruslan Selei:  114, 0

    Vitaly Vishnevsky:  91, 0

    As for this year's Pens, well, when you put Crosby and Malkin up front, Letang and Orpik on the blueline and Fleury in nets, you can afford to have a couple of Skating Clowns on the roster.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BuzzardBoots. Show BuzzardBoots's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    Okay - off by one year.  2006-07.  Splitting hairs.  The general point is still effective. 

    Of course a team with deeper talent (The Pens as mentioned) are going to be better in general... but that just adds to the argument, doesn't it?  Does the talent "afford" the team to have some Skating Clowns on the ice - or do the Skating Clowns "afford" the talent to do what they do with less interference?

    I don't entirely disagree that the staged fighting is getting a little stale.  However, I'm not willing to say that it would be an altogether good thing to eliminate these guys from the lineups.  I'd rather endure a few unnecessary fights throughout the season than lose more and more skill players due to cheap-shot specialists like Cooke.

    There must be something to the idea that having a Thornton on your team helps keep the other teams (relatively) honest.  Might not be 100% toughness thing - but perhaps there's a mix of toughness and respect

    It's definitely debatable - but there sure seems to be a lot more pesty punks skating around wreaking havoc since they've put in the instigator rule...

    As mentioned, let's see how the Lightning do - since they seem to be the test pattern team: high on talent, low on skating clowns.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    No Skating Clowns on Detroit.  They're pretty good.

    How did having Thornton stop Matt Cooke? 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BuzzardBoots. Show BuzzardBoots's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    Obviously, it didn't.  I'm sure had Thornton known ahead of time he was going to blind-side Savard and knock him out for a year, he'd have stepped in beforehand and done something.

    I think the problem goes back to the 'Instigator' rule.  By altering the rules of the game, the Skating Clowns had to adopt their method.  Now, they both have to agree to keep things 'even'.  Still, these guys are the toughest in the league when it comes to fighting - an asset that might be good to have when things get out of hand naturally.

    Not to mention, they're typically not the guys responsible for your scoring.  Who would you rather have out with a busted face or broken hand due to a fight - your 4th line or 1st line winger or 1st line D-man?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    This thread isn't about the instigator rule.  It's about the Skating Clowns and what they bring to a hockey team. 

    You had stated that every team has them.  Tampa doesn't.  Detroit doesn't. No Skating Clown on Montreal or Dallas either.  In fact, there are a lot of teams that don't have these empty jerseys on their NHL roster.

    Carolina?  No.  San Jose?  Nope. 

    I'm 100% for fighting due to anger.  I'm 100% for fighting to payback someone for a cheap shot.  That's not what these Skating Clowns do.  If people want to watch men fight, the UFC is on TV almost every night.  They need to stop interrupting hockey games with the stupidity.


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]On Chara's fighting majors, as Shuperman pointed out 2000-2006 (31) 2006-2011 (9) Notice anything interesting about those dates?  2006 was his first year in Boston.  One year under Dave Lewis, the remaining years under Claude Julien - a defense-first coach of the highest order. If Chara is in the box for 5-minute stretches once a week (or however frequently), the defense takes a hit - thus Julien's system takes a hit. It's highly, highly likely that he is under strict orders from his coach to stay out of the scraps because he's that important to the defense. I would love to see him take one of the league punks (Avery, Ott, Carcillo, Cooke, et al) behind the woodshed - but it's unlikely to happen.  Knowing his past, it points to a coaching decision more than any "lack of heart" as some folks have insinuated on these boards. That's a pretty unfair indictment not fully knowing the situation the team (ie. the coach) is outlining for him. On the "Skating Clowns" mentioned in the orignal post: The Cup winning Ducks of 05-06 (Thornton being one of them) had 5 or 6 guys with 80+ penalty minutes - many of those from fighting majors.  This year, the Penguins are one of - if not THE - most pugilistic teams and it doesn't seem to be slowing their play down. Conclusion?  You may not like it or agree with the notion but it seems to work.  Time will tell us how well the Clown-less TB Lightning finish this season and how far they go in the playoffs...
    Posted by BuzzardBoots[/QUOTE]

    Excellent and well thought out post.  No need to define "skating clown" or "staged fight" or why Montreal has no "clown" (LaPierre???), all those are something in the eye of the creator (beholder) of the thread.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    It's clearly defined, Isla.  I'll help you, however, as you don't seem to understand.

    Skating Clown (n):  a man who is on an NHL team that cannot play NHL standard offense or NHL standard defense but can skate and fight.  The fights are staged, sometimes planned days before the game.  The Skating Clown will ask the other for permission to engage, and when permission is granted, the two Clowns will skate to an open part of the ice, slowly remove their gloves (and sometimes helmets) and skate in circles, sizing each other up.  When they finally do engage, which can take up to 30 seconds, there is a lot of jersey grabbing and jockeying for position.  In the "fight" very few punches are generally landed.  When they both decide that the "fight" has come to an end, they will just stop swinging, allowing the linesmen to get in between them.  If one of the Clowns gets in a compromising position, the other will generally ease up or stop the fight completely.  The end of these "fights" will commonly have one Clown give congrats to the other for a good show.  Normally they can been seen smiling on the way to the penalty box.

    And then the hockey game resumes.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    In Response to Re: An look at #22 without gloves:
    [QUOTE]If Chara is in the box for 5-minute stretches once a week (or however frequently), the defense takes a hit - thus Julien's system takes a hit.
    Posted by BuzzardBoots[/QUOTE]

    While serving a 5-minute major, Chara might miss three shifts.  Let's say it's 2:30.  I can agree that the 2:30 is just as important as the rest of the 2:30 he'll play.

    I feel the same way about players like Lucic, Horton, Krejci, Wheeler, Ryder, Bergeron, Seguin and even Recchi.  Put the fourth line on the bench and give any three of those players an additional 2:30 per game.  None of those players listed are any worse on defense than anyone on the fourth line, so the goals against shouldn't change drastically, but the goals for would.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BuzzardBoots. Show BuzzardBoots's posts

    Re: An look at #22 without gloves

    As I mentioned in my initial response, I do agree that the staged fights are becoming a bit stale (as described in the 'Skating Clown' definition). 

    However, one can argue that teammates may have a different opinion.  We've seen so many over the years that they become humdrum while watching the games.  However, ask any player if they want to willingly step up and get punched in the face a handful of times and I'm sure they'll have a different opinion.

    In the end, it's up to the players and what they think and how they feel about it.  Like them or not, they do tend to get the crowd at the rink excited.  And if the team feeds off that, so be it.

    As for Chara - I agree.  I would like to see him take a few battles himself and live with the consequences... my point on that was just that it's Julien's system and he probably feels the risk isn't worth it, so it's a coach's decision - not the player's.  One of the frustrating things about his system. 

    The other, most glaring, you refer to - the consistent line-rolling.  No doubt the 4th line plays too much.  Unfortunately, this season they've been the hardest working and most consistent line... so there's some merit.  I'd be happy to see their ice time diminished a bit, along with skipping shifts for guys that are just floating.


     
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