Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Ference was not part of the Thornton deal. He was traded for after, for players involved in the Thornton deal, and if you would trade Thornton for Ference well then you'd probably pay top dollar for Mike O'Connell to be your personal Tony Robbins.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fishfinger. Show fishfinger's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    I think they probebly could have got more for him but the fact is they needed to change. With the cap and free agency sometimes you make trades looking ahead at free agents. I am not saying that O'Connell was doing that but when
    they made the trade that was my thinking.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Bruins put too much of a load on Thornton . He was too young to have been  strapped with the captain role.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Hanrahan1 - dead on, 2006 was the watershed shed year.  the upswing has been amazing and this team is so solid moving forward.    Exciting to say the least. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TryToBearIt. Show TryToBearIt's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Something like he didn't think Thornton was the man to build around, and, "I just didn't think we could win the Cup with him." Granted, it took five years, but......... 
    Posted by nitch19


    Sorry, I get the question, but this one always steams me.

    There is simply no way to prove a negative: i.e. We don't know if keeping Thornton would have meant the Bruins would NOT win the Cup. For all we know they would have won it 3 or 4 years ago--whether you want to call it "building around him" or not.

    Bottom line it was a horrible trade. The Bruins got one decent player in Sturm, and a couple of tomato cans in Stuart and Primeau while Thornton has put up fantastic #'s in SJ and continues to be one of the game's elite forwards. It's not his fault that the 'Nucks got a lucky bounce off a stancion to put SJ out of the playoffs, nor his fault (entirely) that his team has underperformed in the post  season previously.

    Put another way: The Bruins never won a Cup with either Ray Bourque or Cam Neely. Did the team make a mistake by not trading those guys????

    Please. Let's stop all the constant Thornton bashing by pinning an entire franchise's failure on ONE guy. Evaluate him for his talent, and don't forget, O'Connell had good reason to rationalize his jettison of Thornton in part for the (appropriate) negative response from fans and media.

     It's also important to note that O'Conell later admitted he didn't shop around for the best deal...he bit on the SJ package almost immediately, and even tho' I think the trade was flat out stupid, if he was committed to send him packing, he should have waited for a much better deal.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    I agree that Thornton is not a player to build a team around, but not because he is not a physical or loud type.  I also don't think it's because too much was put on his plate or any of that crap.  Joe has two problems.  One, he doesn't have that passion inside to be better every shift.  You see it in most great players.  You see Gretz or Croz and they want to score 500 points if possible.  You see it in Chara the competition freak or in suffer brain trauma to win Bergeron or run through a mine field purposely stepping on mines Marchand.  Joe is naturally good and plays good hockey and wants to win, but doesn't seem to want to compete like other greats do.  He doesn't get off on being better than his opponent.  His second problem is he also lacks something that brings the crowd to the feet.  He doesn't fight and trash talk like 'the other' Thornton.  He doesn't hit like Lucic.  He doesn't take off on a break away like a Seguin (or a Kessel for that matter).  He doesn't risk injury on the PK like Bergeron or fight off 2 larger checkers in the corner like a Recchi.  He doesn't inspire fans or teamates with any kind of exciting play.  He just makes nice passes and is hard to knock off the puck.  Good, but boring.  Uninspiring.  I wouldn't even want him as a second-line center if I wanted to win the cup.  Someone like PB is far better in that role.  I have my doubts that Thornton will ever win the big prize.  And yes the Bruins could have got much more for him, though they did get cap space, which is an asset.  The day OC was let go was the day I regained my hope for the Bruins.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Could it be that the Bs didn't WANT to get much in return, if the plan was to have $$ to sign someone like Chara? More of a salary dump move? Trouble is that they didn't make a big move right away, but waited another year. It's the fact that Thornton was traded when he was, without an immediate turnaround plan, that confused me at the time. I don't buy the fact that the Bs had such a specific plan of -Thornton and +Chara at the time. I think it was "let's shed this salary now and see who we can get later". Scary stuff, and thank goodness it turned out ok.  
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Wonder if San Jose, deep down and behind closed doors, feels the same way. Thornton is one of my favorite players, but he should be the best 2nd line center in the league and not the top dog you build around. If he were that, whatever team he is on would have a legit shot at the Cup hands-down. Imagine Jumbo Joe backing up Richards, Toews, Stamkos or Getzlaf....or even better...Joe backing up Sedin in the Kessler role. He'd be as good as, well, Kessler.  :) In this sense, O'Connell was right. Not the guy to build around. Still felt it was stupid to let such a talent go, though. Imagine instead of "building around" Joe as the top pivot, they realized his better role and kept him as the #2 when Savard was added a few years later. With Bergeron as the #3? Wow.
    Posted by asmaha


    This is a great post.  Joe is a great player and he really has stepped up his game the last two play-offs, playing more physical but especially with his defensive zone play (back-checking etc).  He probably isn't however the inspirational leader that can put a team on his back and lead them to the Cup. 
    I do think as you noted that he can be a good number 2 guy (perhaps a 1A) with a leader like you mentioned above.  O'Connell will still always be an idiot for not getting a much better return for a star player.  That is easier to take now that the Bruins have won the Cup but I am so glad we have PC instead of MO. 
    I am also a big fan of Joe's and if the Bruins can't repeat I would love him to prove all the naysayers wrong and lift the Cup in San Jose.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TryToBearIt. Show TryToBearIt's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    I agree that Thornton is not a player to build a team around, but not because he is not a physical or loud type.  I also don't think it's because too much was put on his plate or any of that crap.  Joe has two problems.  One, he doesn't have that passion inside to be better every shift.  You see it in most great players.  You see Gretz or Croz and they want to score 500 points if possible.  You see it in Chara the competition freak or in suffer brain trauma to win Bergeron or run through a mine field purposely stepping on mines Marchand.  Joe is naturally good and plays good hockey and wants to win, but doesn't seem to want to compete like other greats do.  He doesn't get off on being better than his opponent.  His second problem is he also lacks something that brings the crowd to the feet.  He doesn't fight and trash talk like 'the other' Thornton.  He doesn't hit like Lucic.  He doesn't take off on a break away like a Seguin (or a Kessel for that matter).  He doesn't risk injury on the PK like Bergeron or fight off 2 larger checkers in the corner like a Recchi.  He doesn't inspire fans or teamates with any kind of exciting play.  He just makes nice passes and is hard to knock off the puck.  Good, but boring.  Uninspiring.  I wouldn't even want him as a second-line center if I wanted to win the cup.  Someone like PB is far better in that role.  I have my doubts that Thornton will ever win the big prize.  And yes the Bruins could have got much more for him, though they did get cap space, which is an asset.  The day OC was let go was the day I regained my hope for the Bruins.
    Posted by OatesCam


    OC, I respect your opinions 99% of the time, but I just vehemently disagree w/you here.

    See what I underlined and bolded in your statement above and tell me exactly how you know that and what proof you have of it?

    I watched almost every game of that SJ/Van. series and saw Thornton not only make great passes to set up goals, but saw him battle extremely hard for pucks game in and game out, and play w/an aggressive nastiness that I, yes, also saw in Boston.

    Another thing people who call Joe 'soft' conveniently forget about his compete level is that he played the bulk of the '04 series against Montreal w/cracked ribs and said not one word about it. It only came out afterward (and not thru him) after he got bashed by hacks like KPD who delighted in pointing out his 0-0-0 line as "proof" the guy was no good.

    also--why does he have to "trash talk like the other Thornton" to be a great player? How much trash talking does Krejci do? Or Bergeron? Why do you hold Thornton  to a standard that makes sense for a 4th liner like his cousin or a Linesman type like Marchand? He's not those guys! That doesn't make him a lesser player or one w/a lower compete level--just a different kind of player who has plenty of "compete" in him but MAYBE hasn't won yet b/c of the reasons lots of great players (Neely, Dionne, and many many others) haven't--b/c MAYBE he doesn't have all the right players around him, the bounces haven't gone their way (see the Van. final OT game), or that it's just real hard to win the Cup.

    My suspicion is Thornton will win a Cup not too far in the future (I think SJ will benefit from that Havlat deal) and folks will come up with reasons why SJ wins it IN SPITE of Joe.

    Just don't understand why he can't be judged for what he is: an excellent hockey player.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : OC, I respect your opinions 99% of the time, but I just vehemently disagree w/you here. See what I underlined and bolded in your statement above and tell me exactly how you know that and what proof you have of it? I watched almost every game of that SJ/Van. series and saw Thornton not only make great passes to set up goals, but saw him battle extremely hard for pucks game in and game out, and play w/an aggressive nastiness that I, yes, also saw in Boston. Another thing people who call Joe 'soft' conveniently forget about his compete level is that he played the bulk of the '04 series against Montreal w/cracked ribs and said not one word about it. It only came out afterward (and not thru him) after he got bashed by hacks like KPD who delighted in pointing out his 0-0-0 line as "proof" the guy was no good. also--why does he have to "trash talk like the other Thornton" to be a great player? How much trash talking does Krejci do? Or Bergeron? Why do you hold Thornton  to a standard that makes sense for a 4th liner like his cousin or a Linesman type like Marchand? He's not those guys! That doesn't make him a lesser player or one w/a lower compete level--just a different kind of player who has plenty of "compete" in him but MAYBE hasn't won yet b/c of the reasons lots of great players (Neely, Dionne, and many many others) haven't--b/c MAYBE he doesn't have all the right players around him, the bounces haven't gone their way (see the Van. final OT game), or that it's just real hard to win the Cup. My suspicion is Thornton will win a Cup not too far in the future (I think SJ will benefit from that Havlat deal) and folks will come up with reasons why SJ wins it IN SPITE of Joe. Just don't understand why he can't be judged for what he is: an excellent hockey player.
    Posted by TryToBearIt

    TTBI, the simple reason is that he hasn't won yet. Whether it's fair or not, fans put a huge amount of stock into whether or not players can reach the ultimate goal(Stanley Cup).  Think about how many times we heard similar sentiments regarding Bergeron and Chara until they finally got over the hump this year. I guess what I'm saying is that Joe will always be known as an excellent hockey player that doesn't win.........until he and his team can prove otherwise.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : TTBI, the simple reason is that he hasn't won yet. Whether it's fair or not, fans put a huge amount of stock into whether or not players can reach the ultimate goal(Stanley Cup).  Think about how many times we heard similar sentiments regarding Bergeron and Chara until they finally got over the hump this year. I guess what I'm saying is that Joe will always be known as an excellent hockey player that doesn't win.........until he and his team can prove otherwise.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    I'm willing to accept that premise if we're also willing to place Cam Neely, Daryl Sittler, Rick Middleton, Brad Park, Marcel Dionne, Pat Lafontaine, Gilbert Perrault, and many others in the same company.

    I don't deny that players ARE judged by that ultimate standard, but i have never heard anyone question the "compete level" or "willingness to win" or "heart" or whatever of any of the above-mentioned players, while Thornton (at least among Bruins fans) routinely is

    . Seems grossly unfair--and unwarranted--to me.

    I'd also be curious to hear from any Sharks fans whether folks in SJ blame Thorton for their team's lack of a title.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Ok so Jumbo is not a leader but what has Thornton's offensive output during the playoffs gotten SJ ?
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    i thought jumbo was a great player, he needs aloft of good players around him, the bruins did'nt have that.they were to cheap to keep allison (5 million new deal) and thornton 5+mill new deal. this stinks of harry sinden when you trade a good player you exile them to the west coast,like b.pederson,allison,thornton,out of sight out of mind.the problem was they thought brad stuart 3 overall 98 draft big skilled d was going to be brad park, you know he was not, thats were the trade fell down stuart sucked! we were lucky sturm was as good as he was, but we are WORLD CHAMPIONS NOW. so who cares about joe t. good luck to him, i heard him in an interview and he wares flip flops to practice and has taken up surfing, its all good!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Hey, I think you missed my point.  Joe Thornton is an excellent player.  I don't think he's soft.  What I was saying was, for the whole time I've watched him play, I don't know if I ever jumped out of my chair and threw my beer as a result of something he did.  It's more of a subdued reaction, sipping my tea, saying 'Well done Joey old boy, another excellent pass you made there.  Flawless as usual.'  I don't think you need to be a talker, a trash talker or an agitator to be a leader.  I also listed softy Kessel as someone who could get the crowd going with a sudden break away.  I was pointing out the many ways a player can inspire a crowd.  In the playoffs I saw Thornton come out and sit disturb the crowd into a frenzy in Finals game 3.  I saw Ryder score in OT and make a street hockey goalie save.  Marchand explode with speed and anticipation to score a back-breaking shorty.  My personal favorite take the take the crowd and game by the balls moment of 4 spectacular shifts by Tyler Seguin scoring highlight real goals that literally had me on the floor trying not to spill my brew.  And of course Tim Thomas's unbelievable saves almost every game.  These are things that inspire a team and it's fans and lead a group to victory.
    I just don't feel Joe does those kind of things.  Maybe other people feel he does.  The comment about getting off on being better is purely subjective opinion on my part.  It's a complete superficial judge of his character.  I could be wrong but I just don't see it in him, in the way he moves, looks, talks and plays.  I see it to an extreme level in a guy like Crosby.  He is not satisfied with winning the Hart and the Cup, he wants to be the greatest of all time.  There stories of how Crosby will practice Call of Duty for days on end so he can beat his teamates on the team flights.  There are stories of how Joe's hotel room is the best spot to hang out, chill and joke around.  Not a bad quality.  But I just don't see that drive. 

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : OC, I respect your opinions 99% of the time, but I just vehemently disagree w/you here. See what I underlined and bolded in your statement above and tell me exactly how you know that and what proof you have of it? I watched almost every game of that SJ/Van. series and saw Thornton not only make great passes to set up goals, but saw him battle extremely hard for pucks game in and game out, and play w/an aggressive nastiness that I, yes, also saw in Boston. Another thing people who call Joe 'soft' conveniently forget about his compete level is that he played the bulk of the '04 series against Montreal w/cracked ribs and said not one word about it. It only came out afterward (and not thru him) after he got bashed by hacks like KPD who delighted in pointing out his 0-0-0 line as "proof" the guy was no good. also--why does he have to "trash talk like the other Thornton" to be a great player? How much trash talking does Krejci do? Or Bergeron? Why do you hold Thornton  to a standard that makes sense for a 4th liner like his cousin or a Linesman type like Marchand? He's not those guys! That doesn't make him a lesser player or one w/a lower compete level--just a different kind of player who has plenty of "compete" in him but MAYBE hasn't won yet b/c of the reasons lots of great players (Neely, Dionne, and many many others) haven't--b/c MAYBE he doesn't have all the right players around him, the bounces haven't gone their way (see the Van. final OT game), or that it's just real hard to win the Cup. My suspicion is Thornton will win a Cup not too far in the future (I think SJ will benefit from that Havlat deal) and folks will come up with reasons why SJ wins it IN SPITE of Joe. Just don't understand why he can't be judged for what he is: an excellent hockey player.
    Posted by TryToBearIt

     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Hey, I think you missed my point.  Joe Thornton is an excellent player.  I don't think he's soft.  What I was saying was, for the whole time I've watched him play, I don't know if I ever jumped out of my chair and threw my beer as a result of something he did.  It's more of a subdued reaction, sipping my tea, saying 'Well done Joey old boy, another excellent pass you made there.  Flawless as usual.'  I don't think you need to be a talker, a trash talker or an agitator to be a leader.  I also listed softy Kessel as someone who could get the crowd going with a sudden break away.  I was pointing out the many ways a player can inspire a crowd.  In the playoffs I saw Thornton come out and sit disturb the crowd into a frenzy in Finals game 3.  I saw Ryder score in OT and make a street hockey goalie save.  Marchand explode with speed and anticipation to score a back-breaking shorty.  My personal favorite take the take the crowd and game by the balls moment of 4 spectacular shifts by Tyler Seguin scoring highlight real goals that literally had me on the floor trying not to spill my brew.  And of course Tim Thomas's unbelievable saves almost every game.  These are things that inspire a team and it's fans and lead a group to victory. I just don't feel Joe does those kind of things.  Maybe other people feel he does.  The comment about getting off on being better is purely subjective opinion on my part.  It's a complete superficial judge of his character.  I could be wrong but I just don't see it in him, in the way he moves, looks, talks and plays.  I see it to an extreme level in a guy like Crosby.  He is not satisfied with winning the Hart and the Cup, he wants to be the greatest of all time.  There stories of how Crosby will practice Call of Duty for days on end so he can beat his teamates on the team flights.  There are stories of how Joe's hotel room is the best spot to hang out, chill and joke around.  Not a bad quality.  But I just don't see that drive.  In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? :
    Posted by OatesCam


    Nice post and it's great how you summed up my impressions of Joe as well. He's the silent leader and point-getter. Truth is the other great silent leaders had the flashy sidekick to take fan pressure off. Sakic had Forsberg. Yzerman had Federov. Lecavalier had St. Louis. I just don't see Marleau in the same light, which places undue burden on Jumbo Joe's shoulders to make people jump out of their seats. And you are correct that he doesn't do that.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : I'm willing to accept that premise if we're also willing to place Cam Neely, Daryl Sittler, Rick Middleton, Brad Park, Marcel Dionne, Pat Lafontaine, Gilbert Perrault, and many others in the same company. I don't deny that players ARE judged by that ultimate standard, but i have never heard anyone question the "compete level" or "willingness to win" or "heart" or whatever of any of the above-mentioned players, while Thornton (at least among Bruins fans) routinely is . Seems grossly unfair--and unwarranted--to me. I'd also be curious to hear from any Sharks fans whether folks in SJ blame Thorton for their team's lack of a title.
    Posted by TryToBearIt

    TTBI, like I said, it's probably unfair that Joe is judged on team results but it is the way it is.Chara's compete level and will to win was routinely questioned  throughout his stay in Boston.Fair or not,team captains are expected to lead their teams to Cup wins and,to be honest, every guy you've mentioned ended up retiring with the stigma of never having won the big prize.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Hey, I think you missed my point.  Joe Thornton is an excellent player.  I don't think he's soft.  What I was saying was, for the whole time I've watched him play, I don't know if I ever jumped out of my chair and threw my beer as a result of something he did.  It's more of a subdued reaction, sipping my tea, saying 'Well done Joey old boy, another excellent pass you made there.  Flawless as usual.'  I don't think you need to be a talker, a trash talker or an agitator to be a leader.  I also listed softy Kessel as someone who could get the crowd going with a sudden break away.  I was pointing out the many ways a player can inspire a crowd.  In the playoffs I saw Thornton come out and sit disturb the crowd into a frenzy in Finals game 3.  I saw Ryder score in OT and make a street hockey goalie save.  Marchand explode with speed and anticipation to score a back-breaking shorty.  My personal favorite take the take the crowd and game by the balls moment of 4 spectacular shifts by Tyler Seguin scoring highlight real goals that literally had me on the floor trying not to spill my brew.  And of course Tim Thomas's unbelievable saves almost every game.  These are things that inspire a team and it's fans and lead a group to victory. I just don't feel Joe does those kind of things.  Maybe other people feel he does.  The comment about getting off on being better is purely subjective opinion on my part.  It's a complete superficial judge of his character.  I could be wrong but I just don't see it in him, in the way he moves, looks, talks and plays.  I see it to an extreme level in a guy like Crosby.  He is not satisfied with winning the Hart and the Cup, he wants to be the greatest of all time.  There stories of how Crosby will practice Call of Duty for days on end so he can beat his teamates on the team flights.  There are stories of how Joe's hotel room is the best spot to hang out, chill and joke around.  Not a bad quality.  But I just don't see that drive.  In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? :
    Posted by OatesCam


    OatesCam--

    I can't argue with that and I appreciate the further explanation. When I think of Thornton goals that had a "wow" factor I admit the only one I come up with is his very first goal in the NHL against the Flyers when he did a mad rush into the zone, some crazy dekes and roofed a backhander into the net.

    He's certainly never been a 'get the crowd going' kind of player but I still maintain he's an elite player among many who just hasn't reached the promised land, and that the trade--for what came the Bruins' way, straight up--not in light of  the Monday Morning QB reactions that came way way way after--was a lousy one.

    (also can't beleive I forgot to list your username  reference as yet another great player who never won the Cup--Mr. Adam Oates. ;-)
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    "He's certainly never been a 'get the crowd going' kind of player but I still maintain he's an elite player among many who just hasn't reached the promised land, and that the trade--for what came the Bruins' way, straight up--not in light of  the Monday Morning QB reactions that came way way way after--was a lousy one."

    Agreed.

    Great player and I hope Joe gets a ring some day. It is (entirely) not his fault the Sharks went belly up again this year. He was their best player in the playoffs from what I saw. Certainly better than The Ghost of Dany Heatley or Patrick "every 4th game" Marleau.
     
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    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Really good discussion here folks.  First, the trade, and other perceived MOC gaffes.
    My sense is that the MOC era, has been ridiculously misunderstood. 

    First, blowing up that great pre lockout team, wasn't a MOC thing.  That was Jacobs.

      The Thornton thing wasn't on MOC's terms, but Harry's.

      If anyone was paying attention, MOC was never the Bruin GM.  He just had the title, and the joy of taking it on the chin, every time something didn't go as planned.  Based on what I saw, I can't really comment on what kind of GM he was, or could have been....because he really never did the job.  He was ownerships poodle.

      Along comes Shero, and that disaster only seemed to validate my thoughts.  Me thinks Shero turned things down because he felt the hierarchy was hopelessly commited to running the show, and he wasn't interested in being a puppet.  It also seems to me that Neely was never interested in anything more than dipping his toe in the water, untill corporate philosophy changed.
    Fortunately for us,  the Shero thing really embarrassed the company(JJ), and it gave a really short list of people interested in working for the Bruins....some leverage.  What would have happenned if PC publicly turned it down too?  I believe PC knew that, and saw the opportunity to forcefully put forth his demands.  "If you guys want to run the team, you don't need a GM to insulate yourselves from your bad decision making.  Hire a student that wants a temporary title".    If you want me...fine, but I run the hockey operations, no one else". 
    The day PC arrived, was the watershed moment.  Because that was the beginning of a new way of doing things.  Since day one, this has been PC's team.  Not JJ's or Harry's or both.  MOC never had the privledge of working in that environment.  How he would have responded is anyones guess.  It's my belief that no one has ever been given the autonomy EVER....to manage that team....from the day JJ bought it...right up until the day PC was hired.
    Just my thoughts.

    And, the Thornton leadership thing........I feel Thornton was totally mismanaged from the day he got here....til the day he left.  He was coddled and protected his first couple of years(which would suggest the type of outcome, management harped about in later years), he was given a captaincy, he probably didn't even want, but more obviously, didn't earn, or posess the qualities to find success in.  To me...really dumb.  Round pegs fit much better in round holes.

    Then we get into the type of player JT was(and is).  Whether you "build" around him.(another dumb thought).  You build around several things, and rule one is.....you build around what you know to be strength, not weakness.
    Management also ruthlessly used that kid as a marketing "cure all".  If he was anything less than a Mario Lemieux, we felt ripped off.  That seems to go with a much ballyhoo'd first round pick.
     Anyway, JT's cap hit is 7mil.  Savard made the same this year.  Savard, in my books has never been in Joe's category, even without the concussion issues.  Both good players...which one do you build a team around.  Neither, in fact rarely do you build a team around anyone.  It's ridiculous.  Who is this team "built" around?  Many would say Chara.  Right now...many may say TT.  What about Bergeron...isn't he the quintessential Bruin.  How about Julian?  It's reasonable to suggest the team is built around his system.  There are even those that would suggest that the mojo surrounding this Stanley Cup winner is the direct result of Sean Thorton's insertion in the lineup well into the Vancouver series.  I guess to those folks, the last few games of the year....the team was built around him.  It's all ridiculous.
     When you look at great teams, it becomes difficult to tell who the team is built around.  It becomes very debateable.
    The fact is though, great teams are the result of "team dynamics", not individual ones.
    That knock on any player is dumb.  The whole concept is dumb.  Throwing all that on Joe Thorntons doorstep is dumb.

    I moved on from that trade a long time ago.  but, like it or not, Joe Thornton is one of the better players in the league.  Like any of those guys, we can pick away at them, zero in on the negatives, but it doesn't change things.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : Without Neely; Chara doesn't come. Both Savvy & Chara admitted that it was Cam that solidified the decision to come to Beantown.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    What am I missing here Nite?  Chiarelli, Savard, and Chara all came in 2006, Cam came a year later. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Ok so Jumbo is not a leader but what has Thornton's offensive output during the playoffs gotten SJ ?
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    The same thing Bourques defensive, and offensive output got the Bruins...20 years running.

    I believe Henri Richard has more Stanley Cup rings than anyone on the planet.  Does that really tell the whole story in terms of his overall greatness?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    No question he is an elite player and I was sad when he was traded.  The deal was nothing short of dreadful.  They could have gotten a huge bounty of picks and high end prospects for the MVP, not 3 average to good players older than thornton himself.  I'll never forget my disappointment that day.  The only good that came was OC getting fired.

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : OatesCam-- I can't argue with that and I appreciate the further explanation. When I think of Thornton goals that had a "wow" factor I admit the only one I come up with is his very first goal in the NHL against the Flyers when he did a mad rush into the zone, some crazy dekes and roofed a backhander into the net. He's certainly never been a 'get the crowd going' kind of player but I still maintain he's an elite player among many who just hasn't reached the promised land, and that the trade--for what came the Bruins' way, straight up--not in light of  the Monday Morning QB reactions that came way way way after--was a lousy one. (also can't beleive I forgot to list your username  reference as yet another great player who never won the Cup--Mr. Adam Oates. ;-)
    Posted by TryToBearIt

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Really good discussion here folks.  First, the trade, and other perceived MOC gaffes. My sense is that the MOC era, has been ridiculously misunderstood.  First, blowing up that great pre lockout team, wasn't a MOC thing.  That was Jacobs.   The Thornton thing wasn't on MOC's terms, but Harry's.   If anyone was paying attention, MOC was never the Bruin GM.  He just had the title, and the joy of taking it on the chin, every time something didn't go as planned.  Based on what I saw, I can't really comment on what kind of GM he was, or could have been....because he really never did the job.  He was ownerships poodle.   Along comes Shero, and that disaster only seemed to validate my thoughts.  Me thinks Shero turned things down because he felt the hierarchy was hopelessly commited to running the show, and he wasn't interested in being a puppet.  It also seems to me that Neely was never interested in anything more than dipping his toe in the water, untill corporate philosophy changed. Fortunately for us,  the Shero thing really embarrassed the company(JJ), and it gave a really short list of people interested in working for the Bruins....some leverage.  What would have happenned if PC publicly turned it down too?  I believe PC knew that, and saw the opportunity to forcefully put forth his demands.  "If you guys want to run the team, you don't need a GM to insulate yourselves from your bad decision making.  Hire a student that wants a temporary title".    If you want me...fine, but I run the hockey operations, no one else".  The day PC arrived, was the watershed moment.  Because that was the beginning of a new way of doing things.  Since day one, this has been PC's team.  Not JJ's or Harry's or both.  MOC never had the privledge of working in that environment.  How he would have responded is anyones guess.  It's my belief that no one has ever been given the autonomy EVER....to manage that team....from the day JJ bought it...right up until the day PC was hired. Just my thoughts. And, the Thornton leadership thing........I feel Thornton was totally mismanaged from the day he got here....til the day he left.  He was coddled and protected his first couple of years(which would suggest the type of outcome, management harped about in later years), he was given a captaincy, he probably didn't even want, but more obviously, didn't earn, or posess the qualities to find success in.  To me...really dumb.  Round pegs fit much better in round holes. Then we get into the type of player JT was(and is).  Whether you "build" around him.(another dumb thought).  You build around several things, and rule one is.....you build around what you know to be strength, not weakness. Management also ruthlessly used that kid as a marketing "cure all".  If he was anything less than a Mario Lemieux, we felt ripped off.  That seems to go with a much ballyhoo'd first round pick.  Anyway, JT's cap hit is 7mil.  Savard made the same this year.  Savard, in my books has never been in Joe's category, even without the concussion issues.  Both good players...which one do you build a team around.  Neither, in fact rarely do you build a team around anyone.  It's ridiculous.  Who is this team "built" around?  Many would say Chara.  Right now...many may say TT.  What about Bergeron...isn't he the quintessential Bruin.  How about Julian?  It's reasonable to suggest the team is built around his system.  There are even those that would suggest that the mojo surrounding this Stanley Cup winner is the direct result of Sean Thorton's insertion in the lineup well into the Vancouver series.  I guess to those folks, the last few games of the year....the team was built around him.  It's all ridiculous.  When you look at great teams, it becomes difficult to tell who the team is built around.  It becomes very debateable. The fact is though, great teams are the result of "team dynamics", not individual ones. That knock on any player is dumb.  The whole concept is dumb.  Throwing all that on Joe Thorntons doorstep is dumb. I moved on from that trade a long time ago.  but, like it or not, Joe Thornton is one of the better players in the league.  Like any of those guys, we can pick away at them, zero in on the negatives, but it doesn't change things.
    Posted by stevegm

    As far as who the B's are built around , the answer is clearly Chara as witnessed by how the Bruins play and their confidence level when he is not in the line up.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    Mike O'Connel takes full credit for the moves made while he was GM, so unless I hear otherwise from him, I will take it at face value that he decided what to trade or sign.

    The Bruins are built around Chara.  I think that has been clear since he came.  He plays half of the game, the Bruins use a match-up strategywith Chara shutting down opponents.  You take him out of the lineup, the team is a shell of itself.  This is a balanced team, but he is the cornerstone, no question, despite the credit that Thomas gets.

    I think most teams are build around a player that sets the pace.  Past great teams that have gone all the way were lead by:  Crosby, Lidstrom, Staal, Pronger, St. Louis, Yzerman, Sakic, Modano, Lemieux, Messier, Gretzky...  others contribute, of course, but the style of those teams matched their key piece.

    Comparing one players cap hit (Thornton) to another's front-loaded salary (Savard) is inconsistent and does not help your argument.  Apples to apples as they say.


    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    Really good discussion here folks.  First, the trade, and other perceived MOC gaffes. My sense is that the MOC era, has been ridiculously misunderstood.  First, blowing up that great pre lockout team, wasn't a MOC thing.  That was Jacobs.   The Thornton thing wasn't on MOC's terms, but Harry's.   If anyone was paying attention, MOC was never the Bruin GM.  He just had the title, and the joy of taking it on the chin, every time something didn't go as planned.  Based on what I saw, I can't really comment on what kind of GM he was, or could have been....because he really never did the job.  He was ownerships poodle.   Along comes Shero, and that disaster only seemed to validate my thoughts.  Me thinks Shero turned things down because he felt the hierarchy was hopelessly commited to running the show, and he wasn't interested in being a puppet.  It also seems to me that Neely was never interested in anything more than dipping his toe in the water, untill corporate philosophy changed. Fortunately for us,  the Shero thing really embarrassed the company(JJ), and it gave a really short list of people interested in working for the Bruins....some leverage.  What would have happenned if PC publicly turned it down too?  I believe PC knew that, and saw the opportunity to forcefully put forth his demands.  "If you guys want to run the team, you don't need a GM to insulate yourselves from your bad decision making.  Hire a student that wants a temporary title".    If you want me...fine, but I run the hockey operations, no one else".  The day PC arrived, was the watershed moment.  Because that was the beginning of a new way of doing things.  Since day one, this has been PC's team.  Not JJ's or Harry's or both.  MOC never had the privledge of working in that environment.  How he would have responded is anyones guess.  It's my belief that no one has ever been given the autonomy EVER....to manage that team....from the day JJ bought it...right up until the day PC was hired. Just my thoughts. And, the Thornton leadership thing........I feel Thornton was totally mismanaged from the day he got here....til the day he left.  He was coddled and protected his first couple of years(which would suggest the type of outcome, management harped about in later years), he was given a captaincy, he probably didn't even want, but more obviously, didn't earn, or posess the qualities to find success in.  To me...really dumb.  Round pegs fit much better in round holes. Then we get into the type of player JT was(and is).  Whether you "build" around him.(another dumb thought).  You build around several things, and rule one is.....you build around what you know to be strength, not weakness. Management also ruthlessly used that kid as a marketing "cure all".  If he was anything less than a Mario Lemieux, we felt ripped off.  That seems to go with a much ballyhoo'd first round pick.  Anyway, JT's cap hit is 7mil.  Savard made the same this year.  Savard, in my books has never been in Joe's category, even without the concussion issues.  Both good players...which one do you build a team around.  Neither, in fact rarely do you build a team around anyone.  It's ridiculous.  Who is this team "built" around?  Many would say Chara.  Right now...many may say TT.  What about Bergeron...isn't he the quintessential Bruin.  How about Julian?  It's reasonable to suggest the team is built around his system.  There are even those that would suggest that the mojo surrounding this Stanley Cup winner is the direct result of Sean Thorton's insertion in the lineup well into the Vancouver series.  I guess to those folks, the last few games of the year....the team was built around him.  It's all ridiculous.  When you look at great teams, it becomes difficult to tell who the team is built around.  It becomes very debateable. The fact is though, great teams are the result of "team dynamics", not individual ones. That knock on any player is dumb.  The whole concept is dumb.  Throwing all that on Joe Thorntons doorstep is dumb. I moved on from that trade a long time ago.  but, like it or not, Joe Thornton is one of the better players in the league.  Like any of those guys, we can pick away at them, zero in on the negatives, but it doesn't change things.
    Posted by stevegm

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?

    PC told Jeff Gorton and Don Sweeny to sign Chara and Savard.  When talking to the players, Sweeny put Neely on the phone as a former player to help sway them.  Chara said it had an impact on signing with the Bruins.

    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton?:
    In Response to Re: Anyone Remember One Of O'Connell's Comments After Trading Thornton? : What am I missing here Nite?  Chiarelli, Savard, and Chara all came in 2006, Cam came a year later. 
    Posted by scooter244

     
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