Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    From the way you guys value PK, let me ask these questions.  

    How much do the Habs value him?

    How come they haven't wrapped this up?

    Would they want to trade a franchise player if that's what he is?

    Wouldn't they be willing to break the bank for a Norris trophy defenseman?

    I'm NOT arguing with these questions, I'm asking.  I see a few ways to answer those questions, do the Habs not value him that much?  Do the habs not really care because they've decided to write this season off?  And they have tons of time to negotiate?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to red75's comment:

    Jesus... at this point in his career what idiot GM (aside from Holmgren) is going to pay him that kind of cash, especially long-term? I like PK's play, but this makes me think his ego could eclipse the moon.
    He thinks he's twice as valuable as Dennis Seidenberg? Seriously? Maybe someday, but certainly not yet.



    I don't think he's worth 6 either. As talented as I think he is. Don Meehan is being stupid about this. Problem is that I can't see any team offering him 6. I'm with asmaha's idea of signing for the 2 yrs & proving a little more consistency,  then not only will the Habs see the more value, but the rest of league will too. Then there's a lot more teams that may offer the 6m/7 yr contracts.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to asmaha's comment:

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=414354

    Although I still think it unlikely, the door is open for a trade. Being MTL-BOS, it would never happen. Forget all that....for you armchair GMs out there, what would you honestly trade for PK, and what contract would you offer if you were PC?

     



    Krejci, and I'd sign Subban to four years, $14M.


    And then I'd take my own life.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to red75's comment:

    Jesus... at this point in his career what idiot GM (aside from Holmgren) is going to pay him that kind of cash, especially long-term? I like PK's play, but this makes me think his ego could eclipse the moon.
    He thinks he's twice as valuable as Dennis Seidenberg? Seriously? Maybe someday, but certainly not yet.



    You cant compare what Seidz makes with what PK is gonna get.  I love Seidz and believe he was the most important piece of the puzzle to the cup.  His play is so steady it makes me smile.  If you look at what some guys are making compared to Seidz its really an injustice.  

    But you cant compare.  Montreal is chanting his name.  He is great for that franchise bc he is an absolute perfect fit.  If he wants 6 at 6 I would do it.  As an armchair GM I am all over getting him signed.  They didnt make the playoffs last year and Montreal fans wont accept that.  Montreal fans are annoying but they probably are the most pationate fans I have ever seen.  Go for a drive in Montreal if you dont believe me.  PK is a god there for them.  Price and PK. 

    Now, if PK were smart he would ink a 2 year deal.  then really stick it to them in 2 years after his play continues to rise.  23 folks.  Most dmen dont win norris trophies until mid to late 20s   he's on pace for a great career.  Athletic build, confident, all star skill.  I'm sorry, I may be way off, but this kid is the real deal. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    And why do people value Kane so high?  Someone please check his stats out.  Doesnt kill penalties, doesnt play a good two way game.  He reminds me of a poor mans Denise Savard.  He has magic mits but shouldnt he score more?  hes a 60 pts guy.  I wouldnt trade Marchand for him.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to red75's comment:

     

    Jesus... at this point in his career what idiot GM (aside from Holmgren) is going to pay him that kind of cash, especially long-term? I like PK's play, but this makes me think his ego could eclipse the moon.
    He thinks he's twice as valuable as Dennis Seidenberg? Seriously? Maybe someday, but certainly not yet.

     



    You cant compare what Seidz makes with what PK is gonna get.  I love Seidz and believe he was the most important piece of the puzzle to the cup.  His play is so steady it makes me smile.  If you look at what some guys are making compared to Seidz its really an injustice.  

     

    But you cant compare.  Montreal is chanting his name.  He is great for that franchise bc he is an absolute perfect fit.  If he wants 6 at 6 I would do it.  As an armchair GM I am all over getting him signed.  They didnt make the playoffs last year and Montreal fans wont accept that.  Montreal fans are annoying but they probably are the most pationate fans I have ever seen.  Go for a drive in Montreal if you dont believe me.  PK is a god there for them.  Price and PK. 

    Now, if PK were smart he would ink a 2 year deal.  then really stick it to them in 2 years after his play continues to rise.  23 folks.  Most dmen dont win norris trophies until mid to late 20s   he's on pace for a great career.  Athletic build, confident, all star skill.  I'm sorry, I may be way off, but this kid is the real deal. 




    Go back and read my threads about him. Been saying the same thing since he entered the league. He's perfect for Montreal. He skates,hits, defends top lines, tremendous offensively and has an absolute cannon for a shot. His antics rile up opposing fans, players and he is loved in Montreal...Theyre going to have to pay him, might as well do it now and when they look back at it they'll be greatful they did. Sky is the limit for him.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Sorry, 70 pts guy.  But why isnt he a bigger goal guy with those hands. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to red75's comment:

     

    Jesus... at this point in his career what idiot GM (aside from Holmgren) is going to pay him that kind of cash, especially long-term? I like PK's play, but this makes me think his ego could eclipse the moon.
    He thinks he's twice as valuable as Dennis Seidenberg? Seriously? Maybe someday, but certainly not yet.

     



    You cant compare what Seidz makes with what PK is gonna get.  I love Seidz and believe he was the most important piece of the puzzle to the cup.  His play is so steady it makes me smile.  If you look at what some guys are making compared to Seidz its really an injustice.  

     

    But you cant compare.  Montreal is chanting his name.  He is great for that franchise bc he is an absolute perfect fit.  If he wants 6 at 6 I would do it.  As an armchair GM I am all over getting him signed.  They didnt make the playoffs last year and Montreal fans wont accept that.  Montreal fans are annoying but they probably are the most pationate fans I have ever seen.  Go for a drive in Montreal if you dont believe me.  PK is a god there for them.  Price and PK. 

    Now, if PK were smart he would ink a 2 year deal.  then really stick it to them in 2 years after his play continues to rise.  23 folks.  Most dmen dont win norris trophies until mid to late 20s   he's on pace for a great career.  Athletic build, confident, all star skill.  I'm sorry, I may be way off, but this kid is the real deal. 

     




    Go back and read my threads about him. Been saying the same thing since he entered the league. He's perfect for Montreal. He skates,hits, defends top lines, tremendous offensively and has an absolute cannon for a shot. His antics rile up opposing fans, players and he is loved in Montreal...Theyre going to have to pay him, might as well do it now and when they look back at it they'll be greatful they did. Sky is the limit for him.

     



    I agree completely.  Face of the Montreal Canadians.  He and Price and I would even give the edge to PK bc of his outgoing nature.  They love him there.  I think hes an amazing player regardless, but in Montreal hes a rock star. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    I'm not making a one to one comparison, shupe.  I'm thinking about the way he plays.  He's "dominant" with the puck on his stick or on the PP, but he hasn't been as solid defensively since the Shabs lost Gill.  When Berard arrived on that awful Isles team, he was a force with the puck on his stick and a farce without it - but he was 19 and didn't have a Gill to back him up.  Berard had incredible OHL success with a 30 goal season and two long playoff runs in which he was better than a p/g player.  Kid could fly and, while it was pretty hard for him to "dominate" given that he never played on a good team (the 1999-2000 Leafs were as close as he'd get) before he was injured, then was never the same after.  The point of the comparison is that Berard was a guy who seemed to be all athletic ability maximizing average or just above average hockey sense.  And he was never better than his first couple of years.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    I'm not making a one to one comparison, shupe.  I'm thinking about the way he plays.  He's "dominant" with the puck on his stick or on the PP, but he hasn't been as solid defensively since the Shabs lost Gill.  When Berard arrived on that awful Isles team, he was a force with the puck on his stick and a farce without it - but he was 19 and didn't have a Gill to back him up.  Berard had incredible OHL success with a 30 goal season and two long playoff runs in which he was better than a p/g player.  Kid could fly and, while it was pretty hard for him to "dominate" given that he never played on a good team (the 1999-2000 Leafs were as close as he'd get) before he was injured, then was never the same after.  The point of the comparison is that Berard was a guy who seemed to be all athletic ability maximizing average or just above average hockey sense.  And he was never better than his first couple of years.



    Berard still hasnt laid a body check in his career.  And if you wanna compare a list I have thrown a few with similar numbers and all around style of play.  Berard was a one dimensional player.  PK is not that and his game went up in the playoffs.   

    What do you look for in a top defenseman?

    Im answering my own question.

    1. Huge minutes per game.  Check
    2. Anchor PP. Check
    3. Anchor PK. Check.
    4. Physical. Check
    5. Good outlet passer. Check
    6. Mobile. Check.
    7. Leader. ?  In time I believe this to be a check as he has shown.

    If I had one flaw and its not a flaw its his risky play.  But as an old coach told me.  He would rather me make a mistake from trying then being timid.  I also question his maturity/leadership but believe he will gain this.  23 yrs old and to have all the above as a check to me means he should get paid. 

    Not many on here that are as constistant on here as you.  I just feel PK is the real deal.  And like I mentioned he is royalty in Montreal. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Sorry, 70 pts guy.  But why isnt he a bigger goal guy with those hands. 




    More like point/game player for two straight years before last year.  Over 70 his first two years in the league.  72 coming straight from the draft, or 20 points more than last year's leading rookie scorer.  Skinner had 63 when he led rookies, Duchene 55, Ryan 57...in fact, since 2000, the only rookies to total more points than Kane were Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin and Paul Stastny (one of these things...).  He's better than a point/game scorer in the playoffs and has a cup winning goal on his resume.  Oh, and he's also only 24.  He's never been a one-dimensional sniper - he's more of an all-around offensive player.  He made Sam Gagner a lot of money.....

    I've been critical of him in the past, and in the same way Subban makes the pessimist in me see the risk of a Berard-like player who relies on great athleticism, Kane would make me worry that he's a guy who's commitment to the game is less than perfect - as in, the partying will age him sooner than later.

    Come to think of it, though, the one thought that went through my mind when you suggested this was Savard for Chelios.  Even though the Shabs won a Cup after the deal, Savard was a non-factor.  Chelios was a rock for the Hawks including 21 points in 18 games when they went to the finals and lost to Mario and Co.  You never trade a star D for a star F straight up.  I would say the same re: a young star D for a young star F. Funny thing about the Savard deal is taht the Shabs had to throw in a pick.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

     

    I think PK's career has peaked.  From what I've seen of him I don't think he will get any better.  I thnk he's one of those guys who arrive on the scene with good skills and you think he will get better, but never does.  I would go slightly more conservatively than Book.  2nd line forward, then I agree with the rest.

    I don't see a Norris in PK's future.

    I think Hamilton has significantly more upside.

     



    Peek?  You realize how young he is and that he can dominate games.  Back to how young he is.  Most d-man take yrs to find their game.  The year we won the cup did you think he peeked as basically a rookie.  He avg more ice time then any player in the series including chara.  

     

    Book-  what is Kane really?  Have you ever checked his stats out.  I thought he was a bigger pt producer.  He is a one dimensional player who would likely thrive in Montreal.  Leddy is a good young player but is no PK.   So a top 6 fwd. Or a top 4 d.  Prospect and a 1st rounder.  Why not just offer leddy and Kane.   Maybe Montreal tosses a pick or a guy like moan back to even it out. 

    I may over value PK but to me he's a top 5 in the next decade. 



    How has Phaneuf's game come along since he was PK's age? He's already had seasons where he got more assists than PK has managed points in a year. He's declined since his 3rd year. It happens. Kane and Leddy? Wow, over-rate the opposition much?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Berard and Subban have alot of the same qualities but Subban is much more physical. Much more animated as well, which I wouldnt hold against Berard but certainly plays a role in his popularity in Montreal. For all of his antics, and what are they? He dives. He taunts crowds? So what. At the end of the day it makes the rivalry that much more enjoyable. Wouldnt shock me in a coupe of years, should Montreal come to their senses and sign him, if he were the captain. I love watching the kid. The hit on Marchand, the time they tried to fight a couple of times and then did right out of the box. I loved it. And from what I understand they are friends off the ice.

    Remember that tying goal he scored against Thomas late in game 7 to force OT? Absolute rocket. P.K Subban on the Canadiens makes watching the rivalry between the two teams that much more fun..Now throw in the fact that his brother could one day be manning the pipes.Awesome.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    1. Huge minutes per game.  Check
    2. Anchor PP. Check
    3. Anchor PK. Check.
    4. Physical. Check
    5. Good outlet passer. Check
    6. Mobile. Check.
    7. Leader. ?  In time I believe this to be a check as he has shown.

    [Cut and paste for space]

    I don't want to seem overzealous here - I'm not about to claim that I think Subban is a bum.  I don't.  He was flying in the playoffs two years ago and was the only Shab player capable of taking back the momentum from the Bruins when they would systematically grind the Shabs.  How did he do it?  Bruins' system was stifling the Shabs' offense for huge chunks of games including Subban; when the reins came off and he started to freelance more, Subban's athleticism allowed him to break the defensive system. Take away the passing lanes?  Fine, I'll just outskate the coverage until new lanes open up.  Collapse down low and leave me low-percentage shots?  Fine, I'll wire a one-timer from long range and through traffic to a perfect spot.  You know who I should have brought up instead of Berard?  Iafrate.

    On your list: he's been the anchor for their special teams for one year.  They were very bad compared to past years.  All his fault?  Nah.  But true.  Huge minutes per game is true, and he handles them for the most part, but would he have that many minutes with a healthy Markov and a higher quality supporting cast?  I don't know.  These criteria depend on qualities I think he needs to develop to be a fully rounded player.  The stuff that's all about physical tools, well, we agree.  And you missed big shot. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

     

    I think PK's career has peaked.  From what I've seen of him I don't think he will get any better.  I thnk he's one of those guys who arrive on the scene with good skills and you think he will get better, but never does.  I would go slightly more conservatively than Book.  2nd line forward, then I agree with the rest.

    I don't see a Norris in PK's future.

    I think Hamilton has significantly more upside.

     



    Peek?  You realize how young he is and that he can dominate games.  Back to how young he is.  Most d-man take yrs to find their game.  The year we won the cup did you think he peeked as basically a rookie.  He avg more ice time then any player in the series including chara.  

     

    Book-  what is Kane really?  Have you ever checked his stats out.  I thought he was a bigger pt producer.  He is a one dimensional player who would likely thrive in Montreal.  Leddy is a good young player but is no PK.   So a top 6 fwd. Or a top 4 d.  Prospect and a 1st rounder.  Why not just offer leddy and Kane.   Maybe Montreal tosses a pick or a guy like moan back to even it out. 

    I may over value PK but to me he's a top 5 in the next decade. 

     



    How has Phaneuf's game come along since he was PK's age? He's already had seasons where he got more assists than PK has managed points in a year. He's declined since his 3rd year. It happens. Kane and Leddy? Wow, over-rate the opposition much?

     



    This is a good comparison Dez. I remember not too long ago Phaneuf being mentioned in the multiple Norris trophy, steady 20 gls from the back end, future captain of the Olympic team and other such talk. Never happened and never will. I guess you can say he's physical, but not tough and  he plays steady minutes on a rebuilding Leaf team, but he never has realized what all the experts thought and has declined since his 3rd year.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

     

    I think PK's career has peaked.  From what I've seen of him I don't think he will get any better.  I thnk he's one of those guys who arrive on the scene with good skills and you think he will get better, but never does.  I would go slightly more conservatively than Book.  2nd line forward, then I agree with the rest.

    I don't see a Norris in PK's future.

    I think Hamilton has significantly more upside.

     



    Peek?  You realize how young he is and that he can dominate games.  Back to how young he is.  Most d-man take yrs to find their game.  The year we won the cup did you think he peeked as basically a rookie.  He avg more ice time then any player in the series including chara.  

     

    Book-  what is Kane really?  Have you ever checked his stats out.  I thought he was a bigger pt producer.  He is a one dimensional player who would likely thrive in Montreal.  Leddy is a good young player but is no PK.   So a top 6 fwd. Or a top 4 d.  Prospect and a 1st rounder.  Why not just offer leddy and Kane.   Maybe Montreal tosses a pick or a guy like moan back to even it out. 

    I may over value PK but to me he's a top 5 in the next decade. 

     



    How has Phaneuf's game come along since he was PK's age? He's already had seasons where he got more assists than PK has managed points in a year. He's declined since his 3rd year. It happens. Kane and Leddy? Wow, over-rate the opposition much?

     



    Phaneuf a bad player?.  Lets be up front phanuef has never been good in his own end or a shut down guy.  over-rate?  Maybe.  PK has been in the league 2 yrs.  you see him falling off a cliff in talent.  I don't.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

     

    I think PK's career has peaked.  From what I've seen of him I don't think he will get any better.  I thnk he's one of those guys who arrive on the scene with good skills and you think he will get better, but never does.  I would go slightly more conservatively than Book.  2nd line forward, then I agree with the rest.

    I don't see a Norris in PK's future.

    I think Hamilton has significantly more upside.

     



    Peek?  You realize how young he is and that he can dominate games.  Back to how young he is.  Most d-man take yrs to find their game.  The year we won the cup did you think he peeked as basically a rookie.  He avg more ice time then any player in the series including chara.  

     

    Book-  what is Kane really?  Have you ever checked his stats out.  I thought he was a bigger pt producer.  He is a one dimensional player who would likely thrive in Montreal.  Leddy is a good young player but is no PK.   So a top 6 fwd. Or a top 4 d.  Prospect and a 1st rounder.  Why not just offer leddy and Kane.   Maybe Montreal tosses a pick or a guy like moan back to even it out. 

    I may over value PK but to me he's a top 5 in the next decade. 

     



    How has Phaneuf's game come along since he was PK's age? He's already had seasons where he got more assists than PK has managed points in a year. He's declined since his 3rd year. It happens. Kane and Leddy? Wow, over-rate the opposition much?

     

     



    Phaneuf a bad player?.  Lets be up front phanuef has never been good in his own end or a shut down guy.  over-rate?  Maybe.  PK has been in the league 2 yrs.  you see him falling off a cliff in talent.  I don't.  

     




    I didn't say he was "falling off a cliff" but I also don't think PK improving is a guarantee just because he's young. How about Jay Bouwmeester? He was a decent youngster too. You think PK is a shut down guy that's good in his own end simply because he played big minutes. Maybe he played such big minutes just because the rest of the D was so weak. How about that theory? I don't think PK is a bad player by any means. I just don't think his talent is even in the vicinity of where you're suggesting it is. He only wishes he could reach Phaneuf's level.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    he's not a number one. he's never going to be a number one. he's a very very good number 2. your puck mover. he isn't dominant in the d zone, or in the neutral zone. he is really good in the offensive zone. from all indiciations he is a bad locker room guy. he's not mike green but he's built along the same lines. he isn't worth 6 a year. definitely not for a second contract. RFA status he's worth 4

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Yup Kane = Krejci! Check the stats.  

    Subban is not the next coming unless a pychologist is doing tutorials.  When I think of PK, yup great dman, nope he is the hockey version of Rajon Rondo.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    P.K. Subban's agent, Don Meehan, said Wednesday that he expects to speak with Montreal GM Marc Bergevin before the end of the week.   Despite rumors of offer sheets and trades, Meehan commented that their focus is trying to work something out with the Canadiens.

    "It's come down to this.  I want to be paid what I'm worth," Subban told Dave Stubbs of the Montreal Gazette earlier this week.   He wants to stay in Montreal and help the team win, but for all the things he brings to the table he wants "to be fairly compensated." While he continues to wait for a new deal, he remains at home in Toronto where he is staying in shape.

    Jan 24 - 10:12 AM Source: Montreal Gazette  

     

    That's quite the gap between the presumed $2 million to $3 million stating what Subban thinks he's worth and what the Habs think he's worth.  Antics aside there's no doubt Subban is talented and can play but I'm struggling to accept the notion his present skills should vault his salary up into the elite realm of Chara and Weber.  Mind you, I'd take him over say, James Wisniewski who landed the kind of deal perhaps Subban may be after.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to RichHillOntario's comment:

    "It's come down to this.  I want to be paid what I'm worth," Subban told Dave Stubbs of the Montreal Gazette earlier this week.   He wants to stay in Montreal and help the team win, but for all the things he brings to the table he wants "to be fairly compensated."



    Who knows what that figure is?  In his first year, he had 14 goals.  Last year he had 7.  He certainly isn't above $5M/yr like a #1.  He may be but he isn't right now. 

    His production is similar to Del Zotto and Kulikov, both whom are getting about $2.5/yr.  This is his second contract.  He needs to show more to make more.

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to red75's comment:

    Jesus... at this point in his career what idiot GM (aside from Holmgren) is going to pay him that kind of cash, especially long-term?



    And you can be dam sure PKs agent knows this!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

     

    I think PK's career has peaked.  From what I've seen of him I don't think he will get any better.  I thnk he's one of those guys who arrive on the scene with good skills and you think he will get better, but never does.  I would go slightly more conservatively than Book.  2nd line forward, then I agree with the rest.

    I don't see a Norris in PK's future.

    I think Hamilton has significantly more upside.

     



    Peek?  You realize how young he is and that he can dominate games.  Back to how young he is.  Most d-man take yrs to find their game.  The year we won the cup did you think he peeked as basically a rookie.  He avg more ice time then any player in the series including chara.  

     

    Book-  what is Kane really?  Have you ever checked his stats out.  I thought he was a bigger pt producer.  He is a one dimensional player who would likely thrive in Montreal.  Leddy is a good young player but is no PK.   So a top 6 fwd. Or a top 4 d.  Prospect and a 1st rounder.  Why not just offer leddy and Kane.   Maybe Montreal tosses a pick or a guy like moan back to even it out. 

    I may over value PK but to me he's a top 5 in the next decade. 

     



    How has Phaneuf's game come along since he was PK's age? He's already had seasons where he got more assists than PK has managed points in a year. He's declined since his 3rd year. It happens. Kane and Leddy? Wow, over-rate the opposition much?

     

     



    Phaneuf a bad player?.  Lets be up front phanuef has never been good in his own end or a shut down guy.  over-rate?  Maybe.  PK has been in the league 2 yrs.  you see him falling off a cliff in talent.  I don't.  

     

     




    I didn't say he was "falling off a cliff" but I also don't think PK improving is a guarantee just because he's young. How about Jay Bouwmeester? He was a decent youngster too. You think PK is a shut down guy that's good in his own end simply because he played big minutes. Maybe he played such big minutes just because the rest of the D was so weak. How about that theory? I don't think PK is a bad player by any means. I just don't think his talent is even in the vicinity of where you're suggesting it is. He only wishes he could reach Phaneuf's level.

     



    With this logic you could say the same thing about drew, weber 'et al'.  he was essentially a rookie getting monster minutes against the eventual cup champs.  A Montreal team littered with veteran d-men.  And more minutes then chara.  He was outstanding when it counted.   

    So when can you say he's way above average.  I think you would agree that defence is a hard position to play.  Likely the hardest position and players essentially learn and hit prime time in their mid to late 20s.   He's already above avg in the learning curve department.  So yes he could go into a massive tailspin. Or he could continue to grow And get better.  JBo.  To me is still an above avg d.  He does not have the same drive as PK.  Or the same personality.  JBo fizzled in a big market.  PK is playing and thriving in one of the Biggest if not the biggest.   

    we don't know yet what his career is going to be like but from having watched a lot of his career in the NHL and world junior I would tend to believe his career is trending up.  Some players have an it factor. I believe he has it.  time will tell.  People say he will never be a number one d. I think he already is.  His play indicates it is.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    I'll join the camp that says he needs to show a little more before the big contract comes.  The   notion of equal trade value to Kane and Leddy is laughable, although the potential is could be there someday.  It reminds me of the Ryan O'Reilly holdout in a lot of ways, in that the player is arguing for elite money based on elite potential, and a small glimpse of that potential under his belt.  If stardom is so certain for these guys, they shouldn't be so indignant about signing a 1 or 2 year contract to prove their worth.  Subban has been plenty inconsistent and had all kinds of distractions so far.  Like everyone else I would assume the talent will put those things on the back burner, but you never know.  I think the Habs are fair in asking for another year or two in the bank before they give him an elite d-man contract.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    I'll join the camp that says he needs to show a little more before the big contract comes.  The   notion of equal trade value to Kane and Leddy is laughable, although the potential is could be there someday.  It reminds me of the Ryan O'Reilly holdout in a lot of ways, in that the player is arguing for elite money based on elite potential, and a small glimpse of that potential under his belt.  If stardom is so certain for these guys, they shouldn't be so indignant about signing a 1 or 2 year contract to prove their worth.  Subban has been plenty inconsistent and had all kinds of distractions so far.  Like everyone else I would assume the talent will put those things on the back burner, but you never know.  I think the Habs are fair in asking for another year or two in the bank before they give him an elite d-man contract.



    I agree with Shupe in how much talent PK has, but I also agree with you that he needs to continue to show his stuff for another 2 yrs before he cashes in. Shupe says he has the "it" factor, but from what I see he seems to have a little bit too much of the "I" factor. Being cocky & confident is one thing, but arrogance can often be a deal killer. 

     
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