Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    I didn't say he was "falling off a cliff" but I also don't think PK improving is a guarantee just because he's young. How about Jay Bouwmeester? He was a decent youngster too. You think PK is a shut down guy that's good in his own end simply because he played big minutes. Maybe he played such big minutes just because the rest of the D was so weak. How about that theory? I don't think PK is a bad player by any means. I just don't think his talent is even in the vicinity of where you're suggesting it is. He only wishes he could reach Phaneuf's level.

     

     



    With this logic you could say the same thing about drew, weber 'et al'.  he was essentially a rookie getting monster minutes against the eventual cup champs.  A Montreal team littered with veteran d-men.  And more minutes then chara.  He was outstanding when it counted.   

     

    So when can you say he's way above average.  I think you would agree that defence is a hard position to play.  Likely the hardest position and players essentially learn and hit prime time in their mid to late 20s.   He's already above avg in the learning curve department.  So yes he could go into a massive tailspin. Or he could continue to grow And get better.  JBo.  To me is still an above avg d.  He does not have the same drive as PK.  Or the same personality.  JBo fizzled in a big market.  PK is playing and thriving in one of the Biggest if not the biggest.   

    we don't know yet what his career is going to be like but from having watched a lot of his career in the NHL and world junior I would tend to believe his career is trending up.  Some players have an it factor. I believe he has it.  time will tell.  People say he will never be a number one d. I think he already is.  His play indicates it is.  

    [/QUOTE]

    You can start saying it the as soon as his numbers back it up. His play doesn't warrant #1 status as he's not even at that point on his own team now that Markov is back in the lineup. I get that you like PK but you're suggesting he should be paid like he's a Norris trophy finalist and quite frankly, he's not even in that neighbourhood. He's an RFA that wants UFA money and he just hasn't proven to anyone (but you apparently) that he's worth it. Quit comparing him to Doughty and Weber. That's just as silly as PK thinking he should get 6 million a year when the reigning Norris winner only makes 6.5.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davinator. Show Davinator's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    I agree with Shupe in how much talent PK has, but I also agree with you that he needs to continue to show his stuff for another 2 yrs before he cashes in. Shupe says he has the "it" factor, but from what I see he seems to have a little bit too much of the "I" factor. Being cocky & confident is one thing, but arrogance can often be a deal killer. 

     



    I agree you guys - show Montreal the production, they'll show you the money.

    He still has to work on his game and 2 years should do that.

    IMHO, for his own sake, PK should sign a 2yr slightly above what Montreal's offering(there's probably wiggle room there), put up some good numbers and go for the 6 year deal next time (end of that contract will coincide with the opt out year of the new CBA...with some added flexibility).

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Wait. Just so we are clear.  I think PK should take the small contract And then cash in.  I don't believe any young player deserves massive paydays.  I said Montreal should do 6 m for 6 just bc of his status In Montreal.  I heard rumblings on talk radio that he's more likely to get 5m for 5.  Which I believe is over payment as well. 

    Dez. You compared PK to possibly being phanuef.  If you base it on stats he mirrors drew.  So why can't we think he's gonna follow that pattern?  Bc you say so?  This has been a great debate and only time will tell.  As of this date he has had two very good yrs.  comparible to all the names we've mentioned.   Markov or PK.  PK all night.  He's healthy. 

    I believe PK ego is too big.  But I also believe its part of the pkg that makes him so good.  

    Time will tell but he needs to be on the ice.   

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Davinator's comment:

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

     

    I agree with Shupe in how much talent PK has, but I also agree with you that he needs to continue to show his stuff for another 2 yrs before he cashes in. Shupe says he has the "it" factor, but from what I see he seems to have a little bit too much of the "I" factor. Being cocky & confident is one thing, but arrogance can often be a deal killer. 

     

     



    I agree you guys - show Montreal the production, they'll show you the money.

     

    He still has to work on his game and 2 years should do that.

    IMHO, for his own sake, PK should sign a 2yr slightly above what Montreal's offering(there's probably wiggle room there), put up some good numbers and go for the 6 year deal next time (end of that contract will coincide with the opt out year of the new CBA...with some added flexibility).



    Completely agree.  as I mentioned. He's in the drivers seat.  Take the team discount now. Then put up huge numbers and make them pay later.  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Wait. Just so we are clear.  I think PK should take the small contract And then cash in.  I don't believe any young player deserves massive paydays.  I said Montreal should do 6 m for 6 just bc of his status In Montreal.  I heard rumblings on talk radio that he's more likely to get 5m for 5.  Which I believe is over payment as well. 

    Dez. You compared PK to possibly being phanuef.  If you base it on stats he mirrors drew.  So why can't we think he's gonna follow that pattern?  Bc you say so?  This has been a great debate and only time will tell.  As of this date he has had two very good yrs.  comparible to all the names we've mentioned.   Markov or PK.  PK all night.  He's healthy. 

    I believe PK ego is too big.  But I also believe its part of the pkg that makes him so good.  

    Time will tell but he needs to be on the ice.   




    No Shupe, I said PK has yet to reach Phaneuf's numbers. PK's career high is 38 points. Doughty's career high is 59 points. Apparently you're using the same "mirror" as the carnival fun house when making the comparison.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Wait. Just so we are clear.  I think PK should take the small contract And then cash in.  I don't believe any young player deserves massive paydays.  I said Montreal should do 6 m for 6 just bc of his status In Montreal.  I heard rumblings on talk radio that he's more likely to get 5m for 5.  Which I believe is over payment as well. 

    Dez. You compared PK to possibly being phanuef.  If you base it on stats he mirrors drew.  So why can't we think he's gonna follow that pattern?  Bc you say so?  This has been a great debate and only time will tell.  As of this date he has had two very good yrs.  comparible to all the names we've mentioned.   Markov or PK.  PK all night.  He's healthy. 

    I believe PK ego is too big.  But I also believe its part of the pkg that makes him so good.  

    Time will tell but he needs to be on the ice.   

     




    No Shupe, I said PK has yet to reach Phaneuf's numbers. PK's career high is 38 points. Doughty's career high is 59 points. Apparently you're using the same "mirror" as the carnival fun house when making the comparison.

     



    Wake up. Look at first year in the league.  Look at second year.  I can't compare on PK 5 th year bc he has only played two. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Now bc you are being slow. Compare drews first two to PK first two.  Not to drew best year or phanuef best year.  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    With your logic Drews game is regressing from his 2nd year.  Drew is slightly ahead on hits and PK has much more blocked shots. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Now bc you are being slow. Compare drews first two to PK first two.  Not to drew best year or phanuef best year.  




    Shupe, give it up. Doughty had his best year in year 2 (59 points). You also know they're both the same age right? Why wouldn't you use a players best years when trying to assess potential? When it doesn't suit your argument I suppose. Both Phaneuf and Doughty have had seasons where they had more assists than PK had points(in his best year). That's not my opinion. That is fact. Where do you plan to take this debate next? Who's got the wider smile? 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    With your logic Drews game is regressing from his 2nd year.  Drew is slightly ahead on hits and PK has much more blocked shots. 

     



    Which further supports my side in the debate. Aging doesn't always equal improvement. Everyone and their dog felt that Doughty regressed after signing his new deal. That's no secret.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to RichHillOntario's comment:

     

    "It's come down to this.  I want to be paid what I'm worth," Subban told Dave Stubbs of the Montreal Gazette earlier this week.   He wants to stay in Montreal and help the team win, but for all the things he brings to the table he wants "to be fairly compensated."

     



    Who knows what that figure is?  In his first year, he had 14 goals.  Last year he had 7.  He certainly isn't above $5M/yr like a #1.  He may be but he isn't right now. 

     

    His production is similar to Del Zotto and Kulikov, both whom are getting about $2.5/yr.  This is his second contract.  He needs to show more to make more.

     

     




    In complete agreement here.  Those using Phaneuf's years as a Flame are correct in that it serves as a good model for the Subban situation.  His first three years in the league starting in 05/06 had him scoring 20 goals followed by consecutive seasons of 17. 

    The Flames must have assumed those initial impactful seasons were the shape of things to come from Phaneuf and rewarded him in 08/09 with a contract befitting an top-tier NHL defensemen; a six-year $39 million extention from his entry level deal averaging $6.5 million per. 

    Coincidently that first year of his big contract saw his goals dip to 11.  I'm not saying that would happen to Subban but at least Phaneuf had three impressive years before landing his mega deal.  Subban needs to consistently prove his worth over a longer stretch of time.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Shupe is right in saying that the Canadiens are going to fall apart without Subban in the line-up, And if Andrei goes down? Then who; Kaberle is going to carry the back end? Geroges is good, but he's 1/2 of a 2nd, or 3rd pairing on any of the elite teams. So, the Canadiens better decide what he's actually worth fast. Now that they bawked at giving him the money they also diminished their trade arguments no? Shupe is also right that PK is in the drivers seat, because the Canadiens are going to either over pay too soon, or not get enough back in a trade, because they under valued him. They're in a very precarious position right now.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    Shupe is right in saying that the Canadiens are going to fall apart without Subban in the line-up, And if Andrei goes down? Then who; Kaberle is going to carry the back end? Geroges is good, but he's 1/2 of a 2nd, or 3rd pairing on any of the elite teams. So, the Canadiens better decide what he's actually worth fast. Now that they bawked at giving him the money they also diminished their trade arguments no? Shupe is also right that PK is in the drivers seat, because the Canadiens are going to either over pay too soon, or not get enough back in a trade, because they under valued him. They're in a very precarious position right now.




    Diaz is doing a decent job in PK's absence. As a whole, the Habs D has 11 points in the first 3 games. I'm not saying that will continue but as it stands, the Habs aren't missing him the way most teams would miss a #1 D-man.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to nashville0303's comment:

    He wants $6M per year. Keep dreaming. He's not that good. Just because he's black doesn't mean he's great...suspect defensively and not very tough. Ran the worst PP in the NHL last year......real impressive.



    This is NULL right?? Only he would say anything this STUPID!!!!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to nashville0303's comment:

    He wants $6M per year. Keep dreaming. He's not that good. Just because he's black doesn't mean he's great...suspect defensively and not very tough. Ran the worst PP in the NHL last year......real impressive.




    I'm not sure why his skin colour is still brought up by anyone. This is a debate regarding his worth as an NHL D-man. Nothing more to it. No need to bring it up.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Now bc you are being slow. Compare drews first two to PK first two.  Not to drew best year or phanuef best year.  

     




    Shupe, give it up. Doughty had his best year in year 2(59 points). You also know they're both the same age right? Why wouldn't you use a players best years when trying to assess potential? When it doesn't suit your argument I suppose. Both Phaneuf and Doughty have had seasons where they had more assists than PK had points(in his best year). That's not my opinion. That is fact. Where do you plan to take this debate next? Who's got the wider smile? 

     



    Mike Green. That's why.  And you can't compare someone who had 2 yrs to a seasoned player.  PK in his first 2 yrs has put up extremely solid numbers.  Period.  He has put up numbers consistent with some of the best dmen in the league have put up in their first few seasons.  Period.   I can't say what PK is going to do in year 5 until he gets there.  Is he gonna drop?  I don't think so. I think I his talents become more well rounded like most young dmen.  

    If PK is a 40 pt guy has over 100 hits and blocked shots a year over the next 5-10 yrs I'd say he's doing good.  Seems to me that's what drew is going to be.  He had his one mike green year.  Then  settled in and gets his 40 pts seasons.  There is a lot more to this debate then pts but people love stats.  

    I think PK overall game is better than phanuef bc PK is better in his own end.  Phanuef can be beat badly one on one.  What's funny is people thought phanuef has also fallen off the charts(not you but people).  I would love to have him.  

    do you believe Ryan Suter is worth the money he got.  Or anywhere close to it.  

    I hear people say players have regressed bc a dip in point production.  These players are still not in their prime.  And if PK logs 28-30 minutes a game, fires 40 pts. 100plus hits blocked shots. Both special teams.  I'm calling him a top end dman.  and he is gonna get paid like one.  Especially in the most hockey crazed spot in the world.  To me he's passing with flying colors. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to nashville0303's comment:

     

    He wants $6M per year. Keep dreaming. He's not that good. Just because he's black doesn't mean he's great...suspect defensively and not very tough. Ran the worst PP in the NHL last year......real impressive.

     




    I'm not sure why his skin colour is still brought up by anyone. This is a debate regarding his worth as an NHL D-man. Nothing more to it. No need to bring it up.

     



    Correct.  And remember I said I don't think he's worth that money yet.  I didn't think lucic Bergie and others were worth it then and I believe that to be true in this case.  he's an all star in the making and in Montreal is a franchise player.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?


    Mike Green. That's why.  And you can't compare someone who had 2 yrs to a seasoned player.  PK in his first 2 yrs has put up extremely solid numbers.  Period.  He has put up numbers consistent with some of the best dmen in the league have put up in their first few seasons.  Period.   I can't say what PK is going to do in year 5 until he gets there.  Is he gonna drop?  I don't think so. I think I his talents become more well rounded like most young dmen.  

     

    If PK is a 40 pt guy has over 100 hits and blocked shots a year over the next 5-10 yrs I'd say he's doing good.  Seems to me that's what drew is going to be.  He had his one mike green year.  Then  settled in and gets his 40 pts seasons.  There is a lot more to this debate then pts but people love stats.  

    I think PK overall game is better than phanuef bc PK is better in his own end.  Phanuef can be beat badly one on one.  What's funny is people thought phanuef has also fallen off the charts(not you but people).  I would love to have him.  

    do you believe Ryan Suter is worth the money he got.  Or anywhere close to it.  

    I hear people say players have regressed bc a dip in point production.  These players are still not in their prime.  And if PK logs 28-30 minutes a game, fires 40 pts. 100plus hits blocked shots. Both special teams.  I'm calling him a top end dman.  and he is gonna get paid like one.  Especially in the most hockey crazed spot in the world.  To me he's passing with flying colors. 

     

     




    Shupe, let's just agree to disagree regarding PK and accept that we both think most guys are overpaid to begin with. Cheers!

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:


    Mike Green. That's why.  And you can't compare someone who had 2 yrs to a seasoned player.  PK in his first 2 yrs has put up extremely solid numbers.  Period.  He has put up numbers consistent with some of the best dmen in the league have put up in their first few seasons.  Period.   I can't say what PK is going to do in year 5 until he gets there.  Is he gonna drop?  I don't think so. I think I his talents become more well rounded like most young dmen.  

     

    If PK is a 40 pt guy has over 100 hits and blocked shots a year over the next 5-10 yrs I'd say he's doing good.  Seems to me that's what drew is going to be.  He had his one mike green year.  Then  settled in and gets his 40 pts seasons.  There is a lot more to this debate then pts but people love stats.  

    I think PK overall game is better than phanuef bc PK is better in his own end.  Phanuef can be beat badly one on one.  What's funny is people thought phanuef has also fallen off the charts(not you but people).  I would love to have him.  

    do you believe Ryan Suter is worth the money he got.  Or anywhere close to it.  

    I hear people say players have regressed bc a dip in point production.  These players are still not in their prime.  And if PK logs 28-30 minutes a game, fires 40 pts. 100plus hits blocked shots. Both special teams.  I'm calling him a top end dman.  and he is gonna get paid like one.  Especially in the most hockey crazed spot in the world.  To me he's passing with flying colors. 

     

     




    Shupe, let's just agree to disagree regarding PK and accept that we both think most guys are overpaid to begin with. Cheers!

     



    Deal.  same to you.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:


    Deal.  same to you.  

     



    There are way too many other things we can argue about instead.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:


    Deal.  same to you.  

     

     

     



    There are way too many other things we can argue about instead.

     



    Bring it on. haha.  I'm just glad we can talk hockey again.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    In response to shuperman's comment:


    Deal.  same to you.  

     

     

     



    There are way too many other things we can argue about instead.

     

     



    Bring it on. haha.  I'm just glad we can talk hockey again.  

     



    I feel the same. Looking forward to the game tonight. Speaking of the NYI, I was impressed with Brad Boyes last night. He looked like he had some jump in his stride and still has pretty good hands. I was flipping between the NYR-Philly match and the Leafs-NYI and it seemed as if Boyes was doing something good everytime I switched back over. It was funny because until seeing him on the ice, I wouldn't have even remembered what team he was playing for. At 30, he's not that far removed from being a decent player.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Now bc you are being slow. Compare drews first two to PK first two.  Not to drew best year or phanuef best year.  



    drew doughty's worst game> PK subban's best

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Now bc you are being slow. Compare drews first two to PK first two.  Not to drew best year or phanuef best year.  

     



    drew doughty's worst game> PK subban's best

     

    [/QUOTE

    drew had growing pains as well. They all do. PK was one of the best players in that 7 game series.  he held his own with the Stanley cup champs at 21.  

     

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