Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

     


    drew doughty's worst game> PK subban's best

     

    Doughty never became half of what he is until the 2010 Olympic's. He learned by being on that team with Niedermyer, Pronger & Boyle. P.K has shown the same kind of skill that Doughty possessed before those games. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

     


    drew doughty's worst game> PK subban's best

     

    Doughty never became half of what he is until the 2010 Olympic's. He learned by being on that team with Niedermyer, Pronger & Boyle. P.K has shown the same kind of skill that Doughty possessed before those games. 




    Doughty had to be pretty good to start with to make that team. As good as Doughty is, his worst game is not Subbans best. Little bit of an exaggeration there. Both good young players, with the edge so far to Doughty, who has a little more experience.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Pitter+Patter+Canadiens+Subban+hurting+brand+contract+dispute/7873597/story.html
    From Pat Hickey of the Gazette.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    If this is true the Habs are out to lunch.  Who do they think they are ? 2.5/per year , really ?

     

    Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger

    Little or no progress made in PK Subban contract negotiations. Habs firm on 2 year deal, roughly $5 mil total. Offer sheet? Trade? Options

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to BsLegion's comment:

    If this is true the Habs are out to lunch.  Who do they think they are ? 2.5/per year , really ?

     

    Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

    Little or no progress made in PK Subban contract negotiations. Habs firm on 2 year deal, roughly $5 mil total. Offer sheet? Trade? Options



    Dreger was tweeting some offers that Philly might bring.  Said its gonna Take a lot to get him outta Montreal via trade.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to BsLegion's comment:

    If this is true the Habs are out to lunch.  Who do they think they are ? 2.5/per year , really ?




    Del Zotto, starting his fourth year in the NHL

    Last year, he had 10 goals and 31 assists while playing about 17 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed last summer pays $2.55M/yr.


    Kulikov, starting his fourth year in the NHL

    Last year, he had 4 goals and 24 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed recently pays $2.5/yr.

    Subban, two full NHL seasons

    Last year, he had 7 goals and 29 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  Holding out for five or six year deal that pays $5M/yr or more.


    I'd say Subban is out to lunch here.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to BsLegion's comment:

     

    If this is true the Habs are out to lunch.  Who do they think they are ? 2.5/per year , really ?

     




    Del Zotto, starting his fourth year in the NHL

     

    Last year, he had 10 goals and 31 assists while playing about 17 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed last summer pays $2.55M/yr.


    Kulikov, starting his fourth year in the NHL

    Last year, he had 4 goals and 24 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed recently pays $2.5/yr.

    Subban, two full NHL seasons

    Last year, he had 7 goals and 29 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  Holding out for five or six year deal that pays $5M/yr or more.


    I'd say Subban is out to lunch here.




    Actually, Subban played 24:18 mins a game and was a +9 on one of the worst teams in the league while posting (as you said) 36 points. He's a legit top 2 d-man and the other two you outline are not.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

     

     


    drew doughty's worst game> PK subban's best

     

    Doughty never became half of what he is until the 2010 Olympic's. He learned by being on that team with Niedermyer, Pronger & Boyle. P.K has shown the same kind of skill that Doughty possessed before those games. 

     




    Doughty had to be pretty good to start with to make that team. As good as Doughty is, his worst game is not Subbans best. Little bit of an exaggeration there. Both good young players, with the edge so far to Doughty, who has a little more experience.

     



    Yes he was Kel, but he never came into his zone until the games. He ended up being Canada's top D-man at the end of the games, but he wasn't penciled in to be that at the beginning of the games. He brought his game up about another 3 notches compared to where he was. I'm not talking his offensive #'s here. I'm saying his overall game improved. He did exactly what Lemieux did after the 87' Canada Cup. That's when Mario, became Super. P.K should also be part of team Canada, if he can grow up a bit & that could help too. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:



    Actually, Subban played 24:18 mins a game and was a +9 on one of the worst teams in the league while posting (as you said) 36 points. He's a legit top 2 d-man and the other two you outline are not.

     



    My error!  I thought that looked low.  I was using even strength time.  Here are the right numbers.

     

    Del Zotto:  22:26

    Kulikov:  21:51

    Subban:  24:18

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    My error!  I thought that looked low.  I was using even strength time.  Here are the right numbers.

     

     

    Del Zotto:  22:26

    Kulikov:  21:51

    Subban:  24:18

     



    That's about right. I am no Subban fan. In fact, I loathe him as a player but I cannot deny he is on Montreal's top pairing and should be paid accordingly. No he is not worth star money but probably around $4million/year seems fair. Del Zotto and Kulikov are second paring dmen and are worth the contracts they signed. Just my two cents.

     

    Cheers.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    Del Zotto:  22:26

    Kulikov:  21:51

    Subban:  24:18

     
    That's about right. I am no Subban fan. In fact, I loathe him as a player but I cannot deny he is on Montreal's top pairing and should be paid accordingly. No he is not worth star money but probably around $4million/year seems fair. Del Zotto and Kulikov are second paring dmen and are worth the contracts they signed. Just my two cents.



    Del Zotto gets less ice time because the Rangers have more depth.  Does that mean he has less skill or ability?  I wouldn't say so.

    He's also not a turnover machine like Subban.

    Kulikov carries the puck and skates as well as Subban.  That Florida team is just so pitiful that he can't get any help.

    Subban needs to go for today's market price, not last summer's market price.  If they give him more than 3yr/$9M, they are fools.  I don't think Bergevin will budge, however.  He's been doing an amazing job at keeping those Habs contracts reasonsable.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Del Zotto gets less ice time because the Rangers have more depth.  Does that mean he has less skill or ability?  I wouldn't say so.

     

    He's also not a turnover machine like Subban.

    Kulikov carries the puck and skates as well as Subban.  That Florida team is just so pitiful that he can't get any help.

    Subban needs to go for today's market price, not last summer's market price.  If they give him more than 3yr/$9M, they are fools.  I don't think Bergevin will budge, however.  He's been doing an amazing job at keeping those Habs contracts reasonsable.

     



    For Kulikov to be a second pairing dman on a pitiful Florida team (as you put it) kind of suggests he is not really yet a top-2 dman does it not? He will be a good one but Subban is way ahead in his developement.

     

    As for Del Zotto you may have a point and he is probably the best comparison to Subban (sans the attitude). I think the reason Del Zotto took $2.5 million was simply because the Rangers do have a lot of depth and he is an RFA. In Subban's case, they will eventually need him, meaning Subban has a bit more leverage here.

    Personally, I believe he will soon be traded. There are plenty of teams that are even more desperate for a good quality D man than the Habs at the moment.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Del Zotto gets less ice time because the Rangers have more depth.  Does that mean he has less skill or ability?  I wouldn't say so.

     

    He's also not a turnover machine like Subban.

    Kulikov carries the puck and skates as well as Subban.  That Florida team is just so pitiful that he can't get any help.

    Subban needs to go for today's market price, not last summer's market price.  If they give him more than 3yr/$9M, they are fools.  I don't think Bergevin will budge, however.  He's been doing an amazing job at keeping those Habs contracts reasonsable.

     



    For Kulikov to be a second pairing dman on a pitiful Florida team (as you put it) kind of suggests he is not really yet a top-2 dman does it not? He will be a good one but Subban is way ahead in his developement.

     

    As for Del Zotto you may have a point and he is probably the best comparison to Subban (sans the attitude). I think the reason Del Zotto took $2.5 million was simply because the Rangers do have a lot of depth and he is an RFA. In Subban's case, they will eventually need him, meaning Subban has a bit more leverage here.

    Personally, I believe he will soon be traded. There are plenty of teams that are even more desperate for a good quality D man than the Habs at the moment.



    I hope he goes to the West then, because with a talented club he'll cause a lot of damage! 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    I hope he goes to the West then, because with a talented club he'll cause a lot of damage! 

     



    lol....me too. That would be the responsible thing to do. Ship him off to Columbus or Phoenix where he will never be seen or heard from again.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    I agree with NAS in that he should sign short deal. He's much better then both players mentioned.   Dreger has stated the return for him would be huge.  I don't think GM moves on this at all.  PK should take a 2 year deal and then give it to hem in 2 yrs when his stock is higher.  Del zotto if not scoring is not noticeable.  PK always does something.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:


    Del Zotto, starting his fourth year in the NHL

    Last year, he had 10 goals and 31 assists while playing about 17 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed last summer pays $2.55M/yr.
    Kulikov, starting his fourth year in the NHL

    Last year, he had 4 goals and 24 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  New two year contract signed recently pays $2.5/yr.

    Subban, two full NHL seasons

    Last year, he had 7 goals and 29 assists while playing about 18 minutes a game.  Holding out for five or six year deal that pays $5M/yr or more.
    I'd say Subban is out to lunch here.




    I'm going with what I think , a hunch , of course a GM has to go with facts and stats.  I say he's worth more than that and also better than the 2 you mentioned by a long shot.

    Not blaming the Bergevin , this is his first job as a GM and he must stand firm .

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    I agree with NAS in that he should sign short deal. He's much better then both players mentioned.   Dreger has stated the return for him would be huge.  I don't think GM moves on this at all.  PK should take a 2 year deal and then give it to hem in 2 yrs when his stock is higher.  Del zotto if not scoring is not noticeable.  PK always does something.  



    Agreed! NAS is wayyyy off in his comparison's. Those two are a couple of notches behind PK. Stats don't tell the full story of a d-man & what he brings to a hockey team. PK does give the puck away, but he also takes it away & gains the offensive zone 3x as much as Del Zotto & Kulikov. And neither of them has the cannon that PK has.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    I really like Kulikov and think the Cats have a bargain. Subban should sign for somewhere around the middle between what kulikov gets and what Pk is asking for.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    I really like Kulikov and think the Cats have a bargain. Subban should sign for somewhere around the middle between what kulikov gets and what Pk is asking for.



    I agree.  Then make Montreal pay in 2 yrs.  not playing isn't helping him

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011. Show StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    Here is the latest rumour here in Montreal..if Subban doesnt get toman agreement with the scabs before another 10 days ..he will be traded to Phil for Sean Couturier..

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's comment:

    Here is the latest rumour here in Montreal..if Subban doesnt get toman agreement with the scabs before another 10 days ..he will be traded to Phil for Sean Couturier..



    Dreger stated earlier he is not enough.  Meaning Couturier plus something.  PK isn't gonna come cheap Via trade.  I'd rather have the top end d-man.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Dreger stated earlier he is not enough.  Meaning Couturier plus something.  PK isn't gonna come cheap Via trade.  I'd rather have the top end d-man.  



    I wish !  Couturier is controlable , Subban .... harder coming from the back on a rush.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    I really like Kulikov and think the Cats have a bargain. Subban should sign for somewhere around the middle between what kulikov gets and what Pk is asking for.



    Not knocking Kully. I think he's a bargin too & I agree that PK is asking for far too much. Heck I hope they make him sit all season...One less dangerous player on the Habs. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Armchair GMs: What's the deal with P.K. Subban?

    This is a pretty robust statistical argument on the relative value of P.K. Subban. Props to cnnsi for pointing it out.

    Basically, it states that P.K. Subban is not in a "development year" as the Habs believe he is in, and that he has very favorable stats to the second-tier type defensemen (like Drew Doughty) that get paid long-term in this league.

    But in any event, it looks like it's going to be a trade situation, and given how much P.K. Out-performed his co-defensemen, I am shocked the habs are going to let him walk.


    http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3884474/p-k-subban-vs-his-peers-habs-montreal-canadiens?sct=uk_bf3_a5

    If I'm P.K. Subban, I am holding out for a new, long-term deal. He has the stats to get it on the open-market.

     

    If anything, I think it is a bad sign for Habs fans that their management team is not looking at these kinds of statistics while making player evaluations. It seems to me that they are aren't even in the same ball-park as the teams that make numbers-based evaluations (which will be shown by his getting the deal he wants from another team). That would reveal that the Habs management either has some unique, arcane methodology for evaluating players, or it's leaving a lot up to gut-instinct guessing games and "my eyes and subjective understanding of hockey is better than statistics". I think science has revealed enough about the brain and the origins of self-deception and confirmation bias to know which one is a more reliable indicator. 

    Not signing P.K. Subban would be a step-backwards for the organization, and a sign that they may be in the stone-ages of player evals.

     
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