Bergeron to wing please

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : Missed the point.... if you play wing does not mean you cannot take the draw.  It is confusing only after a transition to either defense or offense. In my book, he was quite effective when Krejci and Savard were out of the lineup.  He has enough talent to be injected into the second line.  Now the issue you should have with my suggestion is Wheeler at center of the third line.  There is the weakness in my argument.  Cheers.Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    Well put Isla!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : I will grant you the practice wing/center does not exist, so I capitulate.  The fact remains Bergeron would be better with players of his skill and kind.  The fact is the scoring on the Bs team is becoming one line.  Savard's health, Seguin's developemnt with Bergeron on wing to help defense is not an outrageous suggestion.  If CJ would ever get through his "Elmer Fudd" brain to play three lines more frequently then Campbell could serve as a center.  I am not supportive of Wheeler, so I don't what to say other than "potential".  Don't expect you to agree, but the loss of a faceoff man is not a good excuse. Along with creating a viable second line, Bergeron can still be on the  pk (center too) and the pp if needed.  These are the things I think (I am just an avid fan) CJ should do to help balance the offense.  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    The problem is the wingers don't score enough if they aren't wearing #17 or #18.  The problem is Ryder, Wheeler and Recchi are not getting it done and Seguin is not ready to carry the load as a carry-the-weight winger.

    I would love to see Bergeron's ability utilized properly.  He should be the second line center with decent wingers.  In order for that to happen, Krejci, Ryder, Wheeler and Recchi need to be removed.  Until then, Bergeron is a third line center in Boston, playing with junk on his wings.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    I suggested Bergeron to the wing a while back.  It will always be a flawed idea because it's taking a significant advantage - Bergeron's face-off skills - and chucking it in the trash.  And the "he'll take the face-offs but then play wing" idea?  He'd be switching off with 50% man Savard, not 40% man Wheeler.  You're talking about a checking line that would be giving the puck to the opposition's best offensive players 3 of every 5 drops.  Not good.  Overall, that might lead to more goals against than goals for.

    Somehow, though, the equation of playing him with the best available players has to make sense.  On this team, assuming 17-46-18 stays put, that means playing with Savard and Seguin.  He'd have to play the workhorse role on that re-imagining of the 17-91-81, but I could see it.  At very least, could we see that as the short-bench combo?  Move Campbell up to 3rd line duty with Wheeler, who can be a credible checking winger if not a physical one, and Recchi or Ryder?  You'd have Re/Ry on the bench for set plays where you need a shooter, but for the most part you're rolling the Krejci line, then the Three Centre Line, then back around the horn until they need a longer break, so you throw out the Campbell line.  That's plausible.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Let's get things realistic here. Are winning faceoffs important . Yes ! But in games the Bruins have played this year how many goals were the direct result of winning or losing a faceoff ( other then PP's ). Think about it. The Bruins play a lot of low scoring games where goals are hard to come by.
    Puck possession is the name of the game but goals in today's NHL are achieved in so many more different ways then winning a faceoff and scoring as the direct result . 
    Here's a little exercise for all of us . As the season goes along count how many goals in a game were scored with the direct result of winning a faceoff in comparison to other ways the goals were scored. With minimal number of goals being scored nowadays I think we'd all be a little surprised.

    I agree that winning faceoffs is important but certain posters are good at exaggerating things to get their point across. Winning games mostly comes from outscoring the other team by getting to loose pucks, going to the front of the net creating traffic, skilled plays etc., etc. etc. not from having a high faceoff percentage.    Get it !
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]Let's get things realistic here. Are winning faceoffs important . Yes ! But in games the Bruins have played this year how many goals were the direct result of winning or losing a faceoff ( other then PP's ). Think about it. The Bruins play a lot of low scoring games where goals are hard to come by. Puck possession is the name of the game but goals in today's NHL are achieved in so many more different ways then winning a faceoff and scoring as the direct result .  Here's a little exercise for all of us . As the season goes along count how many goals in a game were scored with the direct result of winning a faceoff in comparison to other ways the goals were scored. With minimal number of goals being scored nowadays I think we'd all be a little surprised. I agree that winning faceoffs is important but certain posters are good at exaggerating things to get their point across. Winning games mostly comes from outscoring the other team by getting to loose pucks, going to the front of the net creating traffic, skilled plays etc., etc. etc. not from having a high faceoff percentage.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]

    You can't score if you don't have the puck.  If you win the faceoff, you have the puck.  Odds of scoring are higher when faceoffs are won.

    A faceoff in the defensive zone is won, the team breaks out and gets the puck in the offensive zone.    Loose puck?  Hustle?  Yes, required, but they can't score from behind their own net.

    A faceoff in the defensive zone is lost.  The other team has the puck and is attacking.  Not really optimal for scoring.

    Let's not pretend that faceoffs and puck possession don't play an integral part to winning hockey.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Being good on faceoffs is not the only vital skill Bergeron brings. Claude uses Bergie to shut down the other team's best line. It would be beneficial if the 4th line could be the shutdown line rather than just an"energy" line, but, as good as Campbell and Marchand play, the shutdown is better with Bergie's skills including  faceoffs that deny possesion to the other team's best scoring line. Putting Bergeron is a scoring first wing position limits the use of his defensive skills, and we all know what comes first with Claude. One solution is to trade Wheeler and bring up Arneil. Another would be to use Recchi on the 4th line in place of Thornton[ I know 5 goals,BUT] where Rechi's ice time could be less, and his smarts more helpful. Then bring back Caron who was very consistent when playing with Bergeron. IMO both rookies handle the puck very well and Arneil has showed a nose for the net in Providence.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : You can't score if you don't have the puck.  If you win the faceoff, you have the puck.  Odds of scoring are higher when faceoffs are won. A faceoff in the defensive zone is won, the team breaks out and gets the puck in the offensive zone.    Loose puck?  Hustle?  Yes, required, but they can't score from behind their own net. A faceoff in the defensive zone is lost.  The other team has the puck and is attacking.  Not really optimal for scoring. Let's not pretend that faceoffs and puck possession don't play an integral part to winning hockey.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    What part of goals that were a direct result of winning or losing a faceoff do you not understand ?

    You miss the point once again. Pretending is not intended at all in my post . I said faceoffs were important along with puck possession. ( you really have to learn how to read what others are saying. And you say duinne makes things up ! ) Try counting goals won directly froma faceoff when puck position is maintained ( no PP's ) and tell me how it affected the scoreboard. I am saying the number will be low ( if you had read my post you would have understood that ). Get back to me on that one.  


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    I just disagree putting Bergeron at wing.  He's the Bruins best defensive center that plays against the best of the other teams.  Give him some real wingers and he'll put up more points.
    The duties of a center is not just taking the faceoff (while important) but it's what he does in the defensive zone coming back to support the defense in a defensive role and to break out of your own zone.  Lastly ,  a play maker.
    Why take off your best player at doing all of the above ?
    You would merely close a hole to create an even bigger hole.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    This post started with the premise that bergeron is a talented scorer and moving him to the wing, presumably with better players around him, would boost his production. I'm not so sure. He has a career shooting % of 9.5% he gets off a respectable number of shots, he just doesn't bury a high percentage of them. So unless the theory is that his scoring chances/shots on net will double by moving him to wing I don't see how his production will change all that much.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Three thoughts:

    1.  Seguin is not ready for prime time on wing but putting him on the fourth line is like using a race horse on a plough.  Play him with a conditioned Savard and a defensive minded wing like Bergeron and bingo.  Bergeron is excellent along the boards btw.  if he falters during a game then put him on the bench.  Learning how to be skilled player not a plugger.   Book, I still dislike analogies btw.  

    2.  Recchi is absolutely amazing for his age.  He can score and he knows how to fore check.  The issue is his skating.  The fourth line is perfect.

    3.  Bergeron became efficient at faceoffs with experience.  Time for someone else to learn how to learn as well.  Wheeler, I cringe to say?  An old adage in the business world was something like this "if you are efficient at your job you will never be promoted".  I believe it is the Peter Principle.  Anyway time for Bergeron to be with skilled players.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheShepherd. Show TheShepherd's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Chowda...

    How is that game against the capitals not FResh in your mind. The bruins battle back to tie the game, Krejci gets kicked out of the circle, lucic has to take the draw, loses and bang, goal for the caps.

    You are right. There are ALOT of goals scored in the NHL that have nothin to do with faceoffs being won directly.

    The claude point of view. Think of how many goals ARENT scored because face offs are lost.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    I said it in another thread, and I will say it here.  The solution may not be to move Bergeron to wing as a set line, but to be more willing to put him there in the "we really need a goal" situations.  Heck, throw him out there as a 4th forward sometimes, he can play the point reasonably well, and brings more offense than most of the defense.  
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    BTW, puck possession is important and faceoffs are a big part of that. Go back and watch the Blackhawks cup games from last year. They won faceoffs (Toews is very good at this)  and controlled the puck more than the other team more often than not. Just as time of possession is important in football, although it is not a guarantee of victory, it sure boosts your odds.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]Chowda... How is that game against the capitals not FResh in your mind. The bruins battle back to tie the game, Krejci gets kicked out of the circle, lucic has to take the draw, loses and bang, goal for the caps. You are right. There are ALOT of goals scored in the NHL that have nothin to do with faceoffs being won directly. The claude point of view. Think of how many goals ARENT scored because face offs are lost.
    Posted by TheShepherd[/QUOTE]

    Shepherd , and that was the point I was trying to make. I didn't say any goals. I said that there were very few as the result of a direct faceoff win. Just wondering if you can think of another recent one. Pretty hard because there are not a lot of them.
     
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    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : Shepherd , and that was the point I was trying to make. I didn't say any goals. I said that there were very few as the result of a direct faceoff win. Just wondering if you can think of another recent one. Pretty hard because there are not a lot of them.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]

    I think your being far to narrow sighted in your thinking of this, "direct result" sounds like your assuming face off back to the point and in, how many goals get scored off a faceoff loss when the team is unable to break the puck out of the zone?? 

    Lucic has several this year off the draw..

    but saying not many are a direct result of losing a draw would be similar to saying how many goals are a "direct" result of not breaking the puck out effectively, rarely do you see turnovers like the horton goal vs florida where its on his stick and he scores, but you fail to get that puck out and there are goals, you fail to win face offs in the zone and it leads to goals...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : I think your being far to narrow sighted in your thinking of this, "direct result" sounds like your assuming face off back to the point and in, how many goals get scored off a faceoff loss when the team is unable to break the puck out of the zone??  Lucic has several this year off the draw.. but saying not many are a direct result of losing a draw would be similar to saying how many goals are a "direct" result of not breaking the puck out effectively, rarely do you see turnovers like the horton goal vs florida where its on his stick and he scores, but you fail to get that puck out and there are goals, you fail to win face offs in the zone and it leads to goals...
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    Narrow Sighted ? Roler please read a little more carefully in what I've posted.
    I am not saying faceoffs are not important and don't lead to scoring chances. I am saying goals scored with direct result while maintaining possession. How many times must this be pointed out ? I'm feeling like a broken record because you guys haven't read what I've posted. Nothing more or nothing less . That is the only thing I'm saying. You guys are reading into something that my posts have not said anything about.

     BTW winning faceoffs in your own end doesn't always lead to clean breakouts if the attacking team is pressuring you just as winning faceoffs in the opposing end doesn't always lead to scoring chances.

    Is Shepherd the only one who ....uh..... GETS IT .
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Dale Hawerchuk was one of the most skilled centres of the 80s, but if he'd have been asked, he would have been a perennial Selke candidate.  Ditto Ron Francis.  Ditto Bryan Trottier, Doug Gilmour, Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov etc. etc. 

    In so many ways, being an NHL coach comes down to "hockey is a simple game: you try to put the puck in the net and keep the other guy from doing the same."  So, cue up Dirty Harry, cause what you gotta ask yourself, coach, is are you gonna get five more goals putting that player in an offensive role or six.  If it's five, it's probably a wash, because you're going to give up some defensive prowess and thus a few more goals (say, five).  If it's six, make the move, because even that one extra goal may be the difference between a win and a loss, and that one win may be the difference between playoffs and not, home ice advantage and not.

    If you don't think about it that way, if you think about it in the absolute terms you see around here, you're paralyzed (and if you think Claude is rigid now...).  Then you can't put Bergeron in a defensive role because he's one of the top 5 offensive players on the team.  But you can't put him in an offensive role because he's the best defensive centre on the team.  Leave him at centre you're wasting his talents because he doesn't get to play with quality wingers, but move him to wing and you're wasting his talent for things only centres do.  See what I mean?

    This is why I come back to the idea of at least having a look where Bergeron's on the wing.  Maybe you never start a game that way, but there are times when you want to go that route - to generate momentum, to play catch-up.  In those circumstances, having Bergeron take draws then switch with Savard would be no different than the 5-10 time a game Savard gets thrown out of the circle anyway. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Can we clean up the whole goals-from-faceoffs thing by saying more bad things happen when the other team controls the puck, and more good things happen when your team controls it (Dennis Wideman excepted)?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : Narrow Sighted ? Roler please read a little more carefully in what I've posted. I am not saying faceoffs are not important and don't lead to scoring chances. I am saying goals scored with direct result while maintaining possession. How many times must this be pointed out ? I'm feeling like a broken record because you guys haven't read what I've posted. Nothing more or nothing less . That is the only thing I'm saying. You guys are reading into something that my posts have not said anything about.  BTW winning faceoffs in your own end doesn't always lead to clean breakouts if the attacking team is pressuring you just as winning faceoffs in the opposing end doesn't always lead to scoring chances. Is Shepherd the only one who ....uh..... GETS IT .
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]

    Still being narrow sighted, winning the faceoff and continuous possession before a goal is scored is still under valuing winning a faceoff...

    Win the face off to the point dump it down low, keep it in etc, is far more easier then losing the face off as a start point, there is a reason faceoff percentage is a tracked and important stat..

    And yes winning a face off in the opposing end does not always lead to a scoring chance, but losing a face off in your own end never leads to a scoring chance.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE], but losing a face off in your own end never leads to a scoring chance.
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    It could. The other team wins the face off takes a shot big huge rebound odd man break starts.

    Other team wins the faceoff D mishandles it at the point breakaway.

    You win the faceoff D mishandles the puck in the corner scoring chance for the other team.

    Theres wayy to many variables to say  here. But if he would score 5more goals at wing I would make that move. Lets say you have Lucic-Savard-Bergeron on the ice after an icing penalty. Savard gets tossed. You'd be glad you had bergy out there to take the draw. But its not the main reason he's on the ice.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : It could. The other team wins the face off takes a shot big huge rebound odd man break starts. Other team wins the faceoff D mishandles it at the point breakaway. You win the faceoff D mishandles the puck in the corner scoring chance for the other team. Theres wayy to many variables to say  here. But if he would score 5more goals at wing I would make that move. Lets say you have Lucic-Savard-Bergeron on the ice after an icing penalty. Savard gets tossed. You'd be glad you had bergy out there to take the draw. But its not the main reason he's on the ice.
    Posted by I-Like-Hockey[/QUOTE]


    Your examples have little to do with winning the drawer though, your adding variables of mis playing the puck, not to mention you still have to get up ice in those.. That scoring chance didnt happen at the win of the face off, it happened at the mis play of the point, theres a reason you don't lose faceoffs and hope for a mis que etc..

    on the other note though, bergeron scoring 5 more goals on the wing, may not result in the bruins having more success, and thats far more important dont you think??

    Kessel was moved from center to wing cause he was a lousy center, and was more valuable on wing, bergeron is not.. I am sure there are some obscure stats some one can dig up that shows your "wins added by such a player" similar to what you find in baseball etc, centers are more valuable then wings, centers put up more points then wings (typically) 7 of the top 10 players in scoring last year were all centers, moving bergeron to wing doesnt look to do much..
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    Unbelievable lol....

    http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=35&id=87063&navid=nhl-rr-topvids


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    This is what you get when you have 5 centers on the roster, add to that that the 2nd and 3rd line wingers are vanilla ice cream ...This dysfunctional roster is on the GM. Did he really believe that Ryder, Wheeler, Recchi, Caron, and Paille were going to compete with elite NHL opponents? Guess what the big offensive prospects are in Providence? Two more soft centers who can't break an egg-
    Nice job Pete -
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bergeron to wing please

    In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bergeron to wing please : Still being narrow sighted, winning the faceoff and continuous possession before a goal is scored is still under valuing winning a faceoff... Win the face off to the point dump it down low, keep it in etc, is far more easier then losing the face off as a start point, there is a reason faceoff percentage is a tracked and important stat.. And yes winning a face off in the opposing end does not always lead to a scoring chance, but losing a face off in your own end never leads to a scoring chance.
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    I don't know anything else to say but I agree with everything you've said . Problem is ......it has nothing to do with my original comments and what point I was making . It's pointless to talk about this any further because I agree with you and you haven't a clue what I'm talking about. It's been great agreeing with you on what you've said and not discussing anything about my original comment. Thanks also for opening my eyes to me being narrow sighted on my comments which we didn't discuss..........um.......I think. 

    BTW that had to be the biggest "Huh" discussion I've ever been involved with yet since joining this forum. Discussing something I originally stated I agreed with while totally disregarding the main point I put forth. Weird ! Roler I respect what you say sometimes but where you were trying to go with this beats me.
     
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