Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    good points asmaha, but I think there's more. I like what Marsh brings to the team, but I really think the sample size is way to small to bank much on.  As far as wanting to be here/not wanting...that's all posturing, and really means jack, because there is no way to ascertain it's sincerity with any player. Getting back to the sample size.  Marchant really started to come along after Christmas, and his contribution to the cup run was mamoth.  NHL contracts don't pay for what you did though, they pay for what you're going to do.  We've seen plenty of Bruins over the years, play really well for 4 or 5 months, then disappear. It's all about the money.  It doesn't matter how good a player is any more.  It's about how good he is, coupled with how much you have to pay him. I'd like to see Marchant return, but only if he continues to grow as a player, and at a cap hit of about 2.5 for a couple or 3 years.  Even then, I'm not sure where he goes from here. Fans are delusional.  Just look at the TT-Tuuka debate.  12 months ago, most here agreed that TT should be playing in a beer league in Saskatchewan.  Many offered to drive him there.  Marchant is the exact opposite equivalent, 1 year later. The fan base perceives Marchand's value higher than reality.  Most just assume he'll get better, and that's not necessarily correct.  Much better Bruins over the years have peaked at a given time only to fade into oblivian a short time later. Not saying he will, but I am saying the sample size is way to small to consider him a must sign.  First of all, in todays NHL, there is no such thing as a must sign, and if there were, I can think of 5 or 6 other Bruins that would chart higher thin him. I like Marsh.  Hope he comes back, but I'm not part of the "cult following".  The term suggests an illogical, irrational sense of value.  I think PC's assessment is a little more grounded.  I've yet to see an example of PC's frugality.  He doesn't seem adverse to paying market value. In simple terms, if he thinks he's worth 4 mil a year at this stage, and he can get it...the team is probably better off if he's earning it somewhere else.
    Posted by stevegm

    Sorry- I don't know if you meant to word this sentence this way; but it's way off. EVERY CONTRACT a player gets is based on BOTH! Nobody can tell the future. They can only go by the past. The contracts that are handed out are ALWAYS based on what the player has shown so far. BM is no different. This is why I said to pay him $4m in his first yr. Then 2-3 for the next two. Front load it so you're paying him for what he actually did do. Which was very impressive & incentive to continue to keep it going.

    This also is false. There were about 10 posters who wanted TT gone. The rest were idiots who had multiple logins to help state their case. Don't get fooled by the cheaters Steve. Notice how quite a few have disappeared? The true & honest Bruins fan (Soxfan for one) admitted he misjudged & is still here. And now that I've taken the hate blinders off I've found out he's a very knowledgeable poster.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chappy28. Show Chappy28's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    One other factor to consider when talking about Marchand....

    Did playing with Bergeron inflate his value?  Would he have been as good of a player with another center?  Krecji?  Although I would like to think so, part of me thinks that Bergeron is at least partially responsible for his success.  He really wasn't putting up great numbers with the 4th line (understandably) but once he got with Bergeron he really started to take off.  I know he had a couple nice end to end type of goals, but I don't really remember him ripping off any amazing shots or anything like that.  Him and Bergeron together were just so good at picking off passes/stealing the puck and counterattacking.

    It seems to me that you could put anybody with Bergeron and he'd give them enough opportunities to put up 20-25 goals without any real special talent.  Case in point -- Mark Recchi
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    Marchand scored at almost exactly the same pace all year - except for about  weeks where he played at about a point/game pace.  Otherwise, he was pretty consistent - a 30point/year player.

    I think playing with Bergeron did inflate his value, though - both in terms of the ice time he received that he might not have elsewhere and in the role that line plays.  Marchand's at his best playing against skill players he can annoy and pester into mistakes.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    Nope I meant what was written Nite. 
    I don't disagree with what you're saying above, but we're saying different things.  Sure, perceived value moving forward is based on history, but you're not "paying for what's already taken place".  You already did that.  In the present, you're making a decision on previous performance, and your expectation as to whether it will continue, rise or fall.
    Example.
    Player x gets 15 goals and 15 assists.  He's done that 4 of the last 5 years, and is only 26.  He made 2 mil last year, which is about what comparable players are making.  The GM expects the productivity to remain constant for 2 more years, so he offers 4 mil over 2 years.(again, going rate)
    Lets just say that same GM feels he's already got the best from this player.  He expects his productivity to fall significantly.  If that's the case, the GM's offer will go down.

    Yes, history is important,  because GM's and agents use that to help determine future value, but they don't move forward, solely on the past.
    Anyway, we really don't disagree much.  The crux of my post was this:
    1.  The sample size is too small.  Marchand has done a lot in a short time.  Maybe he's coming into his own.  Maybe he played over his head for a while.  The latter is much more common than the first, so he has to show more.
    2.  You can't over pay moving forward for what happenned this past playoff(otherwise Ryder would still be here)
    3.  PC has won me over.  I don't think he's opposed to paying fair market value for any player.  He hasn't yet.  It wouldn't be good business for the B's to "not want" this guy.  In fact it would be plain dumb, so I can only assume BM is holding out for an unreasonable amount of money.  

    I have confidence PC will do the right thing. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    One other factor to consider when talking about Marchand.... Did playing with Bergeron inflate his value?  Would he have been as good of a player with another center?  Krecji?  Although I would like to think so, part of me thinks that Bergeron is at least partially responsible for his success.  He really wasn't putting up great numbers with the 4th line (understandably) but once he got with Bergeron he really started to take off.  I know he had a couple nice end to end type of goals, but I don't really remember him ripping off any amazing shots or anything like that.  Him and Bergeron together were just so good at picking off passes/stealing the puck and counterattacking. It seems to me that you could put anybody with Bergeron and he'd give them enough opportunities to put up 20-25 goals without any real special talent.  Case in point -- Mark Recchi
    Posted by Chappy28



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR16WqB6aC8
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR16WqB6aC8
    Posted by Chowdahkid-

    Nice counter Chowda. Before ANYBODY tries to say that was a bad goal! It was an amazing shot! Rinne; Brizzy; Lunqvist NO BUTTERFLY goalie was stopping that! Shortside or not! That shot had eyes.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    Nope I meant what was written Nite.  I don't disagree with what you're saying above, but we're saying different things.  Sure, perceived value moving forward is based on history, but you're not "paying for what's already taken place".  You already did that.  In the present, you're making a decision on previous performance, and your expectation as to whether it will continue, rise or fall. Example. Player x gets 15 goals and 15 assists.  He's done that 4 of the last 5 years, and is only 26.  He made 2 mil last year, which is about what comparable players are making.  The GM expects the productivity to remain constant for 2 more years, so he offers 4 mil over 2 years.(again, going rate) Lets just say that same GM feels he's already got the best from this player.  He expects his productivity to fall significantly.  If that's the case, the GM's offer will go down. Yes, history is important,  because GM's and agents use that to help determine future value, but they don't move forward, solely on the past. Anyway, we really don't disagree much.  The crux of my post was this: 1.  The sample size is too small.  Marchand has done a lot in a short time.  Maybe he's coming into his own.  Maybe he played over his head for a while.  The latter is much more common than the first, so he has to show more. 2.  You can't over pay moving forward for what happenned this past playoff(otherwise Ryder would still be here) 3.  PC has won me over.  I don't think he's opposed to paying fair market value for any player.  He hasn't yet.  It wouldn't be good business for the B's to "not want" this guy.  In fact it would be plain dumb, so I can only assume BM is holding out for an unreasonable amount of money.   I have confidence PC will do the right thing. 
    Posted by stevegm

    OK; I understand what you're saying better now. I think PC will make the right decision. Especially if anything that's being said about the kid is true. I want the kid back because he's an amazing talent that needs to be reeled in. The way this guy exploded in the play-offs was something us Bruin fans have been waiting for yrs to see! If the kid & his agent are being greedy than PC reserves the right to to make him sit & stew. You don't allow a 23 yr old hold a championship team hostage. IF that's what the delay is.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chappy28. Show Chappy28's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR16WqB6aC8
    Posted by Chowdahkid-


    touchet -- great shot
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brooksy12. Show Brooksy12's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    That's dumb.  why wouldnt they resign him? 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    That's dumb.  why wouldnt they resign him? 
    Posted by Brooksy12

    Maybe because he's asking for too long of a period & too much money. It's dumb to pay somebody too much for a longer period than necessary.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : Maybe because he's asking for too long of a period & too much money. It's dumb to pay somebody too much for a longer period than necessary.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    AND, because you don't want to set a negative precedent for the team.  You don't want the agent of every young player who's had one decent season and a good playoff to come knocking on PC's door demanding a 4-yr, $14m contract.  It's just bad business. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : AND, because you don't want to set a negative precedent for the team.  You don't want the agent of every young player who's had one decent season and a good playoff to come knocking on PC's door demanding a 4-yr, $14m contract.  It's just bad business. 
    Posted by 49-North

    I agree; but if it's PC who's balking that's another story. Who's dug their feet into the cement. Maybe the negotiations are fine. Maybe both parties have just said. "Look it's been a long season, we're the champs. Brad wants to be here, we want Brad in Boston. Let's just chill till close to training camp.
    If you think about it. PC hasn't STOPPED. He had the finals; then the draft; then free agency; other contracts; then this reasearch camp. Maybe JJ told him to take a few weeks off & spend it just on his family. BM's deal is gonna happen & it's not a concern. Is this not a reasonable possibility?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : AND, because you don't want to set a negative precedent for the team.  You don't want the agent of every young player who's had one decent season and a good playoff to come knocking on PC's door demanding a 4-yr, $14m contract.  It's just bad business. 
    Posted by 49-North


    Best post on Marchand in a long time.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    They don't win the cup without him.
    Posted by JWensink


    I cannot stand statements like this.  If they didn't have Marchand on that wing, who would have played there?  Unknown.  How would that player have done?  Unknown.  What would the outcome of the series have been?  Unknown.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : I cannot stand statements like this.  If they didn't have Marchand on that wing, who would have played there?  Unknown.  How would that player have done?  Unknown.  What would the outcome of the series have been?  Unknown.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    Yea. I to have a problem with people talking in absolutes NAS; but the kid came thru in the clutch. You & I are in agreement with neither of us liking his shananigans & being cocky. However; BM; Horton & TT are probably the 3 biggest clutch performers in a Boston Bruins uniform in pretty much our entire lives. I want the kid signed; but I don't want him signed if he's being as ridiculous as sometimes his actions on the ice are with regards to his final price. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? :  However; BM; Horton & TT are probably the 3 biggest clutch performers in a Boston Bruins uniform in pretty much our entire lives.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    Insanity.

    He had a couple of important goals.

    This reminds me of something Gretzky once said about a milestone goal.  (not a direct quote)  'When it happens, it'll probably be something flukey, but when I'm telling my grand kids, it'll be an end to end rush.'

    To label Marchand as one of the top three clutch performers in the past 30 years might be as crazy as anything else I've read here...in the past 30 years.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BorisTheGorilla. Show BorisTheGorilla's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    Marchand is a Top 6 forward.  Market price for that is about $3M per year.  Give him 3 years, $9M.  Get it done.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    Marchand is a Top 6 forward.  Market price for that is about $3M per year.  Give him 3 years, $9M.  Get it done.
    Posted by BorisTheGorilla


    I would be shocked if Chiarelli committed $9,000,000 to a guy with 21 career NHL goals and 21 career NHL assists.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : Insanity. He had a couple of important goals. This reminds me of something Gretzky once said about a milestone goal.  (not a direct quote)  'When it happens, it'll probably be something flukey, but when I'm telling my grand kids, it'll be an end to end rush.' To label Marchand as one of the top three clutch performers in the past 30 years might be as crazy as anything else I've read here...in the past 30 years.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    They weren't just important goals. They were goals scored on the path to getting to the ultimate prize. Who's scored more important goals than BM & Horton in the past 30 yrs NAS? Who assisted & did MOST OF THE WORK on the Stanley cup winner? Who scored the 2nd & 4th goal in a game 7 Stanley Cup final?  You can stamp your feet & cry foul all you want; but these are absolutes in what I'm saying. I'm not making it my opinion. It actually happened. The kid so FAR has shown he's a gamer! I'm not saying to break the bank to keep him. I'm also not going to let my negative feelings that I have for the guy get in the way of how valuable he is to this team.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    Marchand is a Top 6 forward.  Market price for that is about $3M per year.  Give him 3 years, $9M.  Get it done.
    Posted by BorisTheGorilla

    Too much!!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : They weren't just important goals. They were goals scored on the path to getting to the ultimate prize. Who's scored more important goals than BM & Horton in the past 30 yrs NAS? Who assisted & did MOST OF THE WORK on the Stanley cup winner? Who scored the 2nd & 4th goal in a game 7 Stanley Cup final?  You can stamp your feet & cry foul all you want; but these are absolutes in what I'm saying. I'm not making it my opinion. It actually happened. The kid so FAR has shown he's a gamer! I'm not saying to break the bank to keep him. I'm also not going to let my negative feelings that I have for the guy get in the way of how valuable he is to this team.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    I'm not letting any negative feelings get in the way.  I have said time and time again that he has skills.  How many Bruins over the last 30 years have played in a Game 7?  How many have had the opportunity to score or assist a Cup winning goal?

    As we get further from the games, the Legend of Brad Marchand continues to grow. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : I'm not letting any negative feelings get in the way.  I have said time and time again that he has skills.  How many Bruins over the last 30 years have played in a Game 7?  How many have had the opportunity to score or assist a Cup winning goal? As we get further from the games, the Legend of Brad Marchand continues to grow. 
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    Exactly! Which is why he's one of the most clutch performers. He was part of a team that got there. He provided what was needed. I know ANY player has the ability to do what BM did. Max Talbot comes to mind. However; not EVERY PLAYER who's in the same situation does what Brad did. He had the opportunity to do it & he did it! Therefore; he has to be considered a clutch performer.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : Exactly! Which is why he's one of the most clutch performers. He was part of a team that got there. He provided what was needed. I know ANY player has the ability to do what BM did. Max Talbot comes to mind. However; not EVERY PLAYER who's in the same situation does what Brad did. He had the opportunity to do it & he did it! Therefore; he has to be considered a clutch performer.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    Oh, I see.  I was looking at it differently.  I was looking at it as a high quality attribute, similar to a player like Claude Lemieux.

    Here, it is more of a fluke than anything else.  Hey, he had an opportunity that few have had and was able to score.

    Great.


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoyalBlackNGold. Show LoyalBlackNGold's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand??? : AND, because you don't want to set a negative precedent for the team.  You don't want the agent of every young player who's had one decent season and a good playoff to come knocking on PC's door demanding a 4-yr, $14m contract.  It's just bad business. 
    Posted by 49-North[/QUO

    i totally hear the whole bad precedent thing 49. the last thing chairelli or any gm for that matter needs is any rookie who manages the score 21 goals 20 assists asking for 9 million over 3 years but how many of those rookies will be able to follow up a season with 11 goals and 8 assists in 25 playoff games? in that scenario charelli or any gm would or should be looking to lock up said rookie to even your numbers 14 million over 4 years. lets also remember that the bigger the stage got with marchand the better his game got from Montreal to Philly,Tampa bay and his best series Vancouver were he was an absolute monster out there. signing marchand to the numbers that are being reported is nowhere near bad business.

    u know what bad business is? its trading mikael grabner, steve bernier and a 1st rounder last year(quinton howden) for victor oreskovich and keith ballard with 5 years left on his contact at 4.2 a season for 21 million dollars. that sounds like bad business to me.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobbyOrrAlumni. Show BobbyOrrAlumni's posts

    Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???

    In Response to Re: Bruins NOT interested in extending Marchand???:
    The problem I have with losing Marchand for "X" return is that the return in this case will never be as valuable to the Bruins as the player they'd lose. Kessel was a different situation...there were GMs out there willing to pay a King's ransom to land him. Add the fact that there was friction with the coach, an inability to grasp the system and Kessel's desire to leave town, and the deal was a no-brainer. Marchand is different. Other teams in the league would obviously want to have him on their side, but I don't see a GM giving up even a fraction of what Burke gave for Kessel in some sort of rare sign-and-trade situation. We're talking base compensation for a RFA, which to me isn't enough. Marchand plays the exact game Julien wants from his players...be an agitator, responsible in your own end, fight for pucks and know your role. Add to this Marchand's stated preference to be a Bruin, his cult following among fans and the way he fits nicely into overall depth of the team. He wants to be here...they want him here. The compensation for shipping him isn't enough. A contract should be forthcoming.
    Posted by asmaha


    On the one hand you say compensation for Marchand will not be good enough and on the other you say he's soooo good that Boston has to sign him no matter the price !  If you're right about him being soooooooo good then management in other teams will see his worth and make Boston an offer we can't refuse !

    PC will listen to any  team  with an offer and then make up his mind. We're talking about an RFA here....PC holds all the cards ! Let's not rush him into a situation that we'll regret later on.
     
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