Census data and relocation/expansion

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Census data and relocation/expansion

    So for my job I spent much of my day today pouring over the metropolitan area census data for the US (don't ask).
    As I was looking through all the regions and population numbers I noticed something interesting about the largest markets not currently served by the NHL.  So I thought I'd throw up those in the top 40 that are not currently served (taking into consideration that some of the metropolitan areas without a team that I cut out have easy access to a team in an adjacent area - the two NYC and LA met areas for example) and maybe get input into the pros and/or cons of expanding or relocating to any of these markets. I put the number beside them of where they are in the overall popualtion list.

    6. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX (If it can make a go in Dallas, MAYBE Houston has a shot)

    9. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA (Never again.)

    15. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA (If Levin gets his rink, this may be the best American option)

    17. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA (with three teams, the California market is likely at its saturation point.)

    23. Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA (Maybe?)

    24. Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Roseville, CA (See San Diego)

    25. San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX (If there’s Texas expansion, it will be to Houston. Also, hockey in the desert has not worked that well.)

    27. Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN (Hockey in Ohio for the NHL has had some real struggles. Columbus can barely survive and Cleveland didn’t. A second team won’t make matters better.)

    28. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH (See Cincy.)

    29. Kansas City, MO-KS (Has the rink, but no owner.)

    30. Las Vegas-Paradise, NV (Again, hockey in the desert. Plus there’s simply too much else to do in Vegas.)

    33. Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC (Can’t see the Carolinas supporting two teams.)

    34. Indianapolis-Carmel, IN (Maybe?)

    35. Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, TX (Eclipsed by Houston.)

    37. Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA (Can’t see the Bruins going for it.)

    39. Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI (Maybe, but could they support both the Bucks and the NHL?)


    Six of these areas are currently able to support the AHL - Houston, San Antonio, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Charlotte and Providence.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    I think Indianapolis will be like the Ohio cities ... not so great. I agree with Seattle being the best option of those cities.

    Hamilton in Canada (near Toronto) would probably be better than anyone of those cities though.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CarolinaClamMan. Show CarolinaClamMan's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    I have always wondered why no team in Seattle or Portland, with their love of winter sports.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    I think Indianapolis will be like the Ohio cities ... not so great. I agree with Seattle being the best option of those cities. Hamilton in Canada (near Toronto) would probably be better than anyone of those cities though.
    Posted by Klaas


    Agreed, but Hamilton has a similar problem to Providence. The Sabres and Leafs won't let it happen. (And before anyone asks, Hartford's not in the top 40, which is why they aren't in this list. They're 45.)
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    I think the NHL is done with emerging markets for the next 20+ years. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    I think the NHL is done with emerging markets for the next 20+ years. 
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    I wish that was the case, but there will likely be two or three teams that need to move within the next five years and thanks to the the Leafs and Sabres opposition to Hamilton, only Quebec is a potentially viable option in Canada. So in all likely-hood, some of these are on the table (like Seattle, KC, Milwaukee, Portland, Houston, Providence, and the aforementioned Hartford.) Some of those are not emerging markets but have solid hockey history and/or culture (including Providence , Seattle, Milwaukee, and Hartford) I'd be willing to bet all the money in my pockets that at least one of the cities on that list get a team by the end of the decade.

    and ClamMan, Washington (at least the Northern part) is hockey nuts, so I agree. When I drive through Tacoma or Bellevue, I see nearly as many Canucks jerseys as I do in Vancouver.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from john6345. Show john6345's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Canada there will be a 2nd team in Toronto, despite what the Leafs think is theirs territorially.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from beantowngm15. Show beantowngm15's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : I wish that was the case, but there will likely be two or three teams that need to move within the next five years and thanks to the the Leafs and Sabres opposition to Hamilton, only Quebec is a potentially viable option in Canada. So in all likely-hood, some of these are on the table (like Seattle, KC, Milwaukee, Portland, Houston, Providence, and the aforementioned Hartford.) Some of those are not emerging markets but have solid hockey history and/or culture (including Providence , Seattle, Milwaukee, and Hartford) I'd be willing to bet all the money in my pockets that at least one of the cities on that list get a team by the end of the decade. and ClamMan, Washington (at least the Northern part) is hockey nuts, so I agree. When I drive through Tacoma or Bellevue, I see nearly as many Canucks jerseys as I do in Vancouver.
    Posted by red75


    Would a team in Halifax meet any opposition Red? I don't know too much about the marketing side of hockey, so I wouldn't know.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : Would a team in Halifax meet any opposition Red? I don't know too much about the marketing side of hockey, so I wouldn't know.
    Posted by beantowngm15


    I don't think so, but Greater Halifax only has 400,000 people. All of Nova Scotia has 944,251. I would love a team in the Maritimes, but don't think they have the population for it.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Canada there will be a 2nd team in Toronto, despite what the Leafs think is theirs territorially.
    Posted by john6345


    Hope you're right, but I think Hamilton has more to do with concerns over Buffalo than the Leafs. Maybe Mississauga?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from joebondo. Show joebondo's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    23.  Portland, Or

    I live in Portland and the city proved this year it will get behind a winner with the Winterhawks, we have the Arena (the Rose Garden would be great for hockey, built more for hockey than BBall).  The billion dollar question is, how much does Paul Allen love hockey, if at all?  Rumor in town has it that before Mario bought the Pens, PA was about to write the check.  He has the money, he has a football and basketball team, could hockey be next?  It would be good for the league with him as an owner as he is willing to spend cash to build a team.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    23.  Portland, Or I live in Portland and the city proved this year it will get behind a winner with the Winterhawks, we have the Arena (the Rose Garden would be great for hockey, built more for hockey than BBall).  The billion dollar question is, how much does Paul Allen love hockey, if at all?  Rumor in town has it that before Mario bought the Pens, PA was about to write the check.  He has the money, he has a football and basketball team, could hockey be next?  It would be good for the league with him as an owner as he is willing to spend cash to build a team.
    Posted by joebondo


    Yeah, with Portland I figured it all comes down to the whims of Paul Allen. Plus, like you said, the Winterhawks have great support. He'd be the second richest owner in the league, right behind Thomson, so I think the league would welcome him with open arms. And he actually already owns three sports teams - he also owns the MLS Sounders.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from joebondo. Show joebondo's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : Yeah, with Portland I figured it all comes down to the whims of Paul Allen. Plus, like you said, the Winterhawks have great support. He'd be the second richest owner in the league, right behind Thomson, so I think the league would welcome him with open arms.
    Posted by red75


    I'd get season tickets in a heartbeat, the WHL is fun, but NOTHING beats the NHL. Actually, id do 10 games or so in Seattle as well.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : I'd get season tickets in a heartbeat, the WHL is fun, but NOTHING beats the NHL. Actually, id do 10 games or so in Seattle as well.
    Posted by joebondo


    So of that list I think we can completely cross out Atlanta, San Diego, Sacramento, San Antonio, Cinci, Cleveland, Vegas, Charlotte and Austin.

    Leaving solid choices in Seattle, Portland, and Providence, and questionable choices at Houston, Indy, Milwaukee and KC. From off the list there's Hartford, Quebec, Southern Ontario, and a very outside shot at Halifax (who could work if they were publicly owned like Green Bay). I think two maybe three of the cities in this paragraph will get a team within the decade.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    "17. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA (with three teams, the California market is likely at its saturation point.)"

    Even with 62 wins in 92' the Gulls only averaged about 5K per game that was allot for the IHL back then. Kansas City's franchise does very well and so does Milwaukee as far as attendance but getting the league minimum attendance that Atlanta just could not do is tuff.

    Have to agree with
    Seattle-Tacoma might work as I i've seen many WHL games up there and those fans are fanatics. One advantage Washington state has is that it already has an arena (abandoned by the Sonics) there as Quebec doesn't plus Paul Allen's deep pockets already owns the Seahawks and Blazers.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Canada there will be a 2nd team in Toronto, despite what the Leafs think is theirs territorially.
    Posted by john6345


    It's more Buffalo then TO. A lot of the Sabers fans come from Canada because it's so hard to get a Leaf ticket! With the Sabers FINALLy finding an owner who's willing to spend.  I don't think the NHL is going to stab the guy in the back & make him compete against a 2nd Canadian team. Not anywhere in the immediate future anyway.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    This might help:

    http://puckthemedia.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/how-game-2-of-the-stanley-cup-final-did-in-nhl-and-non-nhl-markets/
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : It's more Buffalo then TO. A lot of the Sabers fans come from Canada because it's so hard to get a Leaf ticket! With the Sabers FINALLy finding an owner who's willing to spend.  I don't think the NHL is going to stab the guy in the back & make him compete against a 2nd Canadian team. Not anywhere in the immediate future anyway.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    This is exactly true,  I have friends in Markham and Mississauga who go to Buffalo games because of the relative ease in getting tickets.  And lets not forget those original 1970 sox stripe design on the Buffalo uniforms were a tweak against Toronto...
     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    Red, no love for Vegas?

    I vote no on Indy.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LawLaw. Show LawLaw's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    I'm from Seattle originally and would love nothing more than the NHL to go there.  However, you say that Toronto and Buffalo would make it very difficult for a team in Hamilton to exist.  Don't you think that Seattle would face the same barriers with Vancouver?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    I'm from Seattle originally and would love nothing more than the NHL to go there.  However, you say that Toronto and Buffalo would make it very difficult for a team in Hamilton to exist.  Don't you think that Seattle would face the same barriers with Vancouver?
    Posted by LawLaw


    Not as much because Hamilton falls within the competitive zone of both the Sabres and Leafs - Vancouver is 119 miles away from Seattle, well outside that zone.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion:
    In Response to Re: Census data and relocation/expansion : Not as much because Hamilton falls within the competitive zone of both the Sabres and Leafs - Vancouver is 119 miles away from Seattle, well outside that zone.
    Posted by red75


    red - Talk of a second franchise for the Toronto area really ramped up earlier this year when Bill Watters made the bold claim of having inside information on a proposed 20,000 seat arena to be built in Markham, (I think) a town northeast of T. O.  If ever another team is granted, I can't imagine what the hefty indemnity rights this club have to pay to the Leafs and Buffalo would be.  The word massive comes to mind.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    Forget Providence. The support for the Bruins farm team is the same as the support for the Red Sox farm team= low prices. Providence is not an economicaslly vibrant location as one trip through downtown will attest. Quebec and Seattle/Portland are the only real probabilities. KC is another middle of the road economic location, so no go there, and the rest of the south/southwest will fail like Atlanta [twice] and Phoenix [struggling]. Phoenix support is mostly from snowbirds, and the retirement dollar is not easily spent.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsFanInPenTerritory. Show BruinsFanInPenTerritory's posts

    Re: Census data and relocation/expansion

    First, thank you Red for posting this. It's not often that we get original reporting and information in these boards. Most of it's just half-baked trade proposals and the endless Phil Kessel trade discussions. If you're working with census data, you're either in marketing or a journalist. If it's the latter, then sorry!

    Second, everyone seems to like Seattle and for good reason. It would be a great rivalry with the other Stanley Cup finalist who shall not be named (wow, I still can't stand those jerks), and I think the locals would support a team. Can't discount that you have two successful WHL teams (oddly enough, I'm actually in Seattle on vacation and wearing my Thunderbirds jersey at this very moment).  You also have some initial corporate interest in at least an AHL team:
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nba/2015487119_arena02.html

    However, you also have to consider that the locals have been hesitant to provide taxpayer funding for arenas in the past, the city just lost an NBA team, and the Seahawks and Mariners have held tenuous grasps on their homes for years.

    In my view, the 'Yotes are the next to move and after that Bettman is going to do all he can to prevent additional relocations. Which means that the NHL is probably looking for a city with a decent arena either in the works or already there (KC or Quebec City). The NHL eventually comes to Seattle but not for a very, very long time.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share