CJ and Seguin

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]OK, let's try a different analogy.  I can't tell you how many times I heard students complain about their C+ grades in first-year univeristy classes by saying "but in High School, I always got an A+".  Different standards, and you have to learn what's expected in order to adapt.   I get what Wensink's saying and I'm not saying we turn him into a defense-first player, but I don't care how much pure goal-scoring talent he has, if he's a terrible liability over 2/3 of the ice, you can't just feed him ice time and hope you can accelerate his learning that way.  Remember some guy whose response to making defensive mistakes was "so I'll get it back on the next shift"?  As though he was good enough offensively that it didn't matter that he didn't backcheck?  This isn't some all or nothing equation.  Its a process and you have to be patient with it.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    You must have been replying to my criticism of the analogy, the hs analogy is still "not applicable".  All analogies are faulted.  I also don't mind the rookies being placed in the press box or even sitting on the bench.  I would agree as stated above Marchand is a bit older than Seguin and more capable on ice this year with experience in Providence last year.  The major point being made is time has come today with the injuries etc.  Demoting Seguin to the fourth line is fine but TOI should not be limited until the return of Krejci and Savard. Personally speaking, CJ is not a master at handling young players.  Seguin's confidence is not shaken too badly, he will recover.  The coach's pampering philosophy is comparable to Burns pampering of Joe Thornton in his rookie season.  CJ is not an offensive minded genius.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    I'm sure it partly had to do with the multi-goal lead, but Seguin had almost 13 minutes last night.  A lot of that was power-play time, but his even-strength time increased as the game went on, to almost 4 minutes in the third.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Isla - Analogies are never supposed to be perfect; they highlight similarity, and similar doesn't mean identical.  But really, I'm not sure what we're actually arguing about when I look at this:

    "Demoting Seguin to the fourth line is fine but TOI should not be limited until the return of Krejci and Savard." 

    My point all along has been that the rookies should get the TOI they earn via results not simply by virtue of potential.  When they're playing well, reward them.  When they're making mistakes that lead directly to goals against, pull back on the reins.  That's been my point all along.  Remember that this thread started with Tuukka's suggestion that Seguin needs more ice time the day after Seguin's worst game of the season.  Somehow, the problem is he isn't playing enough and with the right players.  I didn't see a guy whose wingers were flubbing soft, perfect feeds.  I saw a kid winging hard passes to guys in awkward positions and frequently trying to do too much with the pass.  It seems completely counterintuitive to suggest that he should play more.  The only way that makes sense is if your primary concern is developing the kid, and even then, it's high risk.  One possible result of letting a kid who has had success at every level fail on the biggest stage is that he loses something - confidence, verve, the joy of the game - and never fulfills his potential.

    This one also doesn't work for me: "The coach's pampering philosophy is comparable to Burns pampering of Joe Thornton in his rookie season."  I wouldn't call what Burns did to Thornton "pampering".  Thornton was awful at 18.  He was always behind the pace of play, got knocked off the puck so easily, looked lost when he had the puck, and wasn't effective when he did try to make a play.  He was the prototype of the highly skilled big kid who goes from playing against kids to men - suddenly he's not the biggest and baddest, so he has to play hard every night.  Thornton didn't learn, so he didn't play. To me, pampering a rookie means taking it easy on him, giving him ice time to make him happy, letting him play with whoever he wants to play with.  That sort of thing.  Julien does this a bit with Seguin.  He's on the 2PP pretty much no matter what.  He's been better on the PP than he is 5 on 5, but even there, he hasn't set the world on fire - and for the record, he gets to think offense first on the PP.  Show me his impressive results on the PP, where he plays with good offensive players and gets to think offense first before you tell me he should get to shed the reins and run wild 5 on 5 (sorry, Isla, that one's not really a response to you...).

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    If it was about playing time in relation to amount of mistakes - then Hunwick and Wheeler would have been healthy scratches more than once this season. Either the rules apply or they don't- it can't be selective. Here goes an analogy... Willie Mays said - They throw it-I hit it  They hit it- I catch it.

    I think some may have underlying concerns that CJ just might coach the natural skills and talent right out of a kid like this. It seems sometimes in the past that he may not have an appreciation for such gifted offensive types who occasionally stray from the confines of the "system". It's a fine line between "learning" and becoming so self aware of your actions that you might lose touch with the natural gifts that have gotten a player like Seguin this far at his age. I see it with Lucic sometimes, and I feel he's being somewhat restricted. All anyone had to see was Seguin in that shoot-out, let's not turn a Ferrari into a Volvo because they're safer and more efficient.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Thanks BB.  The first paragraph is understood.  I would not argue over the logic (no offense analogies are poor logic btw) of placing Seguin, Caron, or even the current "flash in the pan" Marchand on restricted time on ice.  Seguin's drop passes and poor mid ice passes were blatant.  His positon play was not noticed only because I was not at the game.  His benching and TOI are reflective of my respect for CJ defensive schemes.  Nonetheless as you have defended the treatment of the rookies to "earn to play", I will state the need of CJ to have the rookies learn now in November.  Spatial learning is done practicing and playing.  Despite our positions we do agree the rookies are to be given gradual tutelage.  I said this summer I would be contented if Seguin scored 20 goals and had 20 assists.  Caron is a keeper!  Marchand needs to be on a tight leash.  
    I would disagree on the Thornton analysis as Burns was not a "soft and fuzzy" coach.  CJ for that matter would have been better for Thornton and now Seguin as he does understand personality types.  Your analysis of Seguin on the power play was dead on.  Now that was an excellent counter point!!  DrCC noted the TOI Seguin had against NJ was increased primarliy to CJ trust in his ability to handle the open ice and offensive skills.  

    Lastly, if this team did not have the defensive schemes of CJ and Chara, our conversations would be more along the lines of discussing what picks would receive in the 2011 draft.  Hopefully CJs ears are being filled with the need to be more creative offensively by the likes of CAm Neely.  Cheers BB!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rjd57. Show rjd57's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]Incidentally, the yin and yang that is Hamill/Colborne on the P-Bruin roster continued over the weekend vs. Abbotsford.  Hamill had 4 assists over three games and finished +2.  Colborne had 1 assist and was -6 over three games (2 wins).

     I was at Sunday's Providence-Abbotsford game, and if Bruins fans are counting on Colborne to make the big club this year or next, he's got a long way to go. Hamill set up two clutch, late goals by Reich. Arniel looked good. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin


                          This is the thing.The Bruins are bigger than Seguin.Claude is bigger than Seguin.The future of Seguin is much smaller than the 2.If the 2 trees (Claude and the Bruins) overshadow young Seguin and don't give him any sunlight he will wither and die.It is that simple.The power play should keep some much needed light on him.The player he wants to be vs the player the Bruins want him to be might be in conflict.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]                      This is the thing.The Bruins are bigger than Seguin.Claude is bigger than Seguin.The future of Seguin is much smaller than the 2.If the 2 trees (Claude and the Bruins) overshadow young Seguin and don't give him any sunlight he will wither and die.It is that simple.The power play should keep some much needed light on him.The player he wants to be vs the player the Bruins want him to be might be in conflict.
    Posted by hockey-101[/QUOTE]
    When did Walt Whitman start posting on here?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin : When did Walt Whitman start posting on here?
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

                   I also offer a poetry class if anyone is interested.Poetry 101.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin :                I also offer a poetry class if anyone is interested.Poetry 101.
    Posted by hockey-101[/QUOTE]
    Sounds good.It adds a touch of class to the forum.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Wensink - hey, bang on.  The rule apply or they don't.  Me, I'd love to see the rule applied continuously.

    Those two examples?  Perfect nutshell for this whole thread.  Wheeler has been fed minutes despite poor, dispassionate performance for a long, long time.  All he's done is continue to play listless, unproductive hockey for the most part.  Hunwick has been fed minutes at the expense of McQuaid, Boychuck, and most recently Bartkowski, and maybe it's just me here, but he's been much, much better the last three weeks.  Not doing anything flashy with the puck, winning a lot of down low one-on-ones, and playing a harder, stronger game than I've ever seen from him.  So to recap - Wheeler fed minutes, no results.  Hunwick fed minutes and hey, presto - results.

    And I agree on not turning Seguin into a Volvo.  He's here to be an offensive cornerstone (in time), and I doubt a kid with his wheels and hands could ever be fully neutered as an offensive force.  Ferrari's are great, just...get the brakes checked, change your tires regularly, and wear your seatbelt.  Blaze a little safer.  And, oh yeah, go out an earn your millions so you can afford that little luxury.

    PS - Isla - always a pleasure debating points with you. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]I'm sure it partly had to do with the multi-goal lead, but Seguin had almost 13 minutes last night.  A lot of that was power-play time, but his even-strength time increased as the game went on, to almost 4 minutes in the third.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    He played a bit better last night, making some solid defensive plays. When their performance warrants extra ice time, they get it.

    I didn't read through the whole thread, but from the OP, its appears my prediciton was partially right (channeling Stanley here). Seguin was going to struggle at the start of the season, and some people would get on his case, but I didn't foresee Julien getting the blame (should have, I suppose. Some I'm sure would blame Julien for bad traffic on the Mass Pike).

    Julien has coached in junior and in the AHL. Since he's been coach of the Bruins, he's extensively played rookies like Milan Lucic, David Krejci, Blake Wheeler, Matt Hunwick and Johnny Boychuk. From what I've seen, the guy knows how to handle young players, and isn't afraid to use them.

    Seguin got a lot of publicity for being a No. 2 draft pick, but I wish people would please bear in mind that he is 18 years old. It's going to take him a while.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]Wensink - hey, bang on.  The rule apply or they don't.  Me, I'd love to see the rule applied continuously. Those two examples?  Perfect nutshell for this whole thread.  Wheeler has been fed minutes despite poor, dispassionate performance for a long, long time.  All he's done is continue to play listless, unproductive hockey for the most part.  Hunwick has been fed minutes at the expense of McQuaid, Boychuck, and most recently Bartkowski, and maybe it's just me here, but he's been much, much better the last three weeks.  Not doing anything flashy with the puck, winning a lot of down low one-on-ones, and playing a harder, stronger game than I've ever seen from him.  So to recap - Wheeler fed minutes, no results.  Hunwick fed minutes and hey, presto - results. And I agree on not turning Seguin into a Volvo.  He's here to be an offensive cornerstone (in time), and I doubt a kid with his wheels and hands could ever be fully neutered as an offensive force.  Ferrari's are great, just...get the brakes checked, change your tires regularly, and wear your seatbelt.  Blaze a little safer.  And, oh yeah, go out an earn your millions so you can afford that little luxury. PS - Isla - always a pleasure debating points with you. 
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]
    i have to disagree  with you on Wheeler.He's making more  checks and playing a solid 2 way game.Even the slow start still has him on pace for around 20 goals.As a young player I'll cut him way more slack than Ryder for example.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from huscroft28. Show huscroft28's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    I just love Wheeler's self-passes to nowhere down the wing, even when he's playing center and losing 8 out of 10 face-offs.  He's continuously and consistently non-productive.  Trade Big Blake out west for a high draft pick when Krejci returns - stockpile for the future (Toronto losing 3-0 to Nashville).
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from bhanlon156. Show bhanlon156's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Seguin just needs to figure out how to make space for himself.  The way to take away a fast guy is to check him tight.  He hasn't figured out how to get away yet. 
     

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