College Defensemen

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    College Defensemen

    I'm going to be uncharcteristically brief here: anyone else notice how little luck the Bruins have had with college-trained players?  Hunwick is the latest to be jettisoned after a frustrating tenure in Black and Gold.  Wheeler has to be on the chopping block.  Last year, it was Chucky and that other Gopher kid.  Stuart's start suggests that he will never be more than what he's been.  Every time I look at P-Bruin stats, Colborne is a minus player.  Almost to a man, the problem has been emotional commitment and consistency (I exempt Chucky, who was simply done).

    I look at that list and wonder a) WT F Paul Kelly's going to do about it and b) how does PC continue to show such faith in college trained defensemen?  Excluding Alexandrov, all of the prospects in Providence - the ones the Bruins think will move up - are college defensemen: Penner, Kampfer, Bartkowski, Wild, and now Cohen.  This makes me nervous.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    That's an observation. What I'd like to know ( i"m too lazy ), is to find an NHL roster that has mostly Junior players on defence and see if the stats are any different. Just curious. I know the WHL coaches their teams in the mold of the NHL. I don't believe that is true for the Colleage players.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    It's an interesting thought, but I don't think I agree about the suggestion that college kids are less likely to make it.  I think it is about the same rate of attrition as junior kids.  I look at some of the better defensmen in the league to made a seemingly smooth transition from the college blueline to the pros -- Keith, Liles, Whitney, Bieksa, Poti, Goligoski, Murray, Greene, Carle, Johnson(x2) -- and I think the Bruins are just unlucky recently.  There has been plenty of Lashoff types from junior that have failed too. 

    I do agree with you that the Bruins seem to favor college kids for defensmen with the Providence kids you mentioned and then Cross, Warsofky, and Trotman in the pipeline.  I'm not sure why, except the theory that they are older and further along in development by the time they finish college.  Are Alexandrov, Button, and Chudinov the only non-college D prospects?

    We will see, but I think that some of the B's college prospects are bound to break through the mediocre cieling set by Hunwick, Alberts, et al.  I'm optimistic it is a random dry spell rather than a trend.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Maybe yes, Maybe no. IMO all college players require some AHL experience, some 2+ years before they are capable at the NHL level. Look at Stuart, he has remained a 5/6 guy without much, if any, progress. It took Boychuck 5 years at AHL level after Juniors. It took Chara almost 5 years before he learned to be more than just big. Ference came after Juniors, 2 years NHL, and we still find fault. The Bruins have both college[ more] and Juniors or other experience in Providence and in the draft pipeline. None are expected to be Ray Bourque type. Certainly Don Sweener's experience and education should help mold prospects. Providence is loaded with 21/22 year old players and should start to produce potential after 2 years, so CHIA will still be loking to trade for a more immediate fix. Any clue as to whether or not Sweeney is working with the Providence defense players??
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Most college players don't make it in the NHL.  Of that very small percentage, most of them are bit role players.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    I wouldn't know if it's college or not. What is obvious- is that the fact that this team has many players on the roster and in the system that share the same traits. I recently saw Hamill and Colborne play...I'm not sure, but they could both be Blake Wheeler's first cousin -on his mothers side. Segiun's immense talents are impossible to ignore, but I've never seen anyone so obsessed with avoiding contact. Somebody's got to be willing to do the dirty work, it just seems that those qualities aren't that high up on this management team's list of priorities when evaluating talent -
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: College Defensemen


    I'll go solely with what the Bruins are looking for D-men that can carry , skate the puck; In my eyes the best paring, are Brent Seabrook and Dunkin Kieth (fave team growing up the Bruins)  and these two both come from the CHL, west coast.
    Here are more excellent puck moving D , Drew Doughty, Zach Bogozian (American but developed in OHL), Shea Weber and I'll add an upcoming star PK Suban .  What do they all have in common ? all played juniors in CHL .
    Conclusion BB has a point as the better ones or at least most of them are coming out of the Canadian Juniors system

    Mr Shot you can now change your signature. Looking fwd to the next one.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from thedauber1. Show thedauber1's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Duncan Keith left Michigan State to play in the WHL, he played there for a season.

    Also, don't forget Ryan Button, hes a good prospect
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Button is the exception that proves the rule with this philosophy.  Chudinov is really handcuffed to Alexandrov, who was a Mike O'Connellov decision.

    Fletch - that list might prove my point.  Liles is like El Nino - he comes around every few years.  There's a reason Whitney and Poti  keep getting dealt.  The No More Tears Twins are top-of-the-draft guys who are still early enough in their careers for the jury to be out.  The majority of those guys have good puck skills but are liabilities in the defensive zone - and more so than having an offensive green light would account for.  Now, for the record, I'm not knocking college hockey products entirely - Toews is one of my favorite non-Bruins, for example, and Adam Oates was as slick as they come.  But Boston has had terrible terrible luck with college players over the last ten years and that makes me leery of the strategic direction PC has chosen with the defense corps. 

    The popular pundit opinion of the Bruins is that they need a "puck-moving defensemen", but does anyone else think that they need an attitude adjustment first?  A dose of physical and emotional red bull?  And if that's the case, looking at the recent college-trained Bruins, anyone think solving problem one will help problem two?  Because it looks like that's the direction they're going.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    "The popular pundit opinion of the Bruins is that they need a "puck-moving defensemen", but does anyone else think that they need an attitude adjustment first?  A dose of physical and emotional red bull? "

    Yeah - Somebody else does...And I think the coach should be serving the cocktails - chicken or the egg thing
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheShepherd. Show TheShepherd's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Is it bad luck, or poor scouting?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Well, Liles was just listed as an early front runner for the Norris trophy and I listed a lot of the other guys because they all seem to fit into productive top-four NHL defensemen as former college players, instead of being Andrew Alberts types that just hang onto an NHL job in mediocrity.

    I would love to have either of the Johnson brothers on the Bruins, too.


    To your point though, I do think that college players typically have different type of skill set than junior players and the Bruins seem to be a little heavy with that skill set.  A rugged junior prospect like Gudbranson was almost as appealing as Tyler Seguin for that reason.

    In terms of physical tools and attitude though, it seems like Lashoff and Button were drafted as "puck-movers" that play more like college guys too.  I still think it is largely about the individual as opposed to the league.  Perhaps the Bruins are drafting many of the same player-types, but I don't think it is because they are college guys or not.


    From what little I have heard and seen Bartkowski, Cross, and Trotman are all more rugged, defense-first type players.  Hopefully there is some diversity in the group though and guys with traditional Bruin type attitudes.  I share your concern, if not your premise entirely.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    I hear you Fletch.  My only point in qualifying was that most of the players on your list have checkered histories.  Most have been dumped in disgust at one point or another - no, not J&J, but Carle, Whitney, Poti for sure.  And Alberts was a BC Eagle, in case you intended him as a CHL pylon.  Lots of CHL pylons, true....

    My original post, though, was about the Bruins having a bad run with college players.  Must be scouting in part, but terrible luck too. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheShepherd. Show TheShepherd's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    lou lamoriello is the master of drafting college players... its obvious he likes the way jerry york coaches... dont forget Mike mottau.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheShepherd. Show TheShepherd's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    i was just thinking... I dont think its so much the bruins and college defenseman, but more American born defenseman... Which are more likely to play college, and are less likely to be successful in the NHL.  College produces small, goal scoring forwards: Parise, kessel, vanek,gionta, toews... canada produces the best defensemen. and i guess europe produces players that disappear in the playoffs.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from screw-cindy-and-ovie. Show screw-cindy-and-ovie's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    In Response to Re: College Defensemen:
    Well, Liles was just listed as an early front runner for the Norris trophy and I listed a lot of the other guys because they all seem to fit into productive top-four NHL defensemen as former college players, instead of being Andrew Alberts types that just hang onto an NHL job in mediocrity. I would love to have either of the Johnson brothers on the Bruins, too. To your point though, I do think that college players typically have different type of skill set than junior players and the Bruins seem to be a little heavy with that skill set.  A rugged junior prospect like Gudbranson was almost as appealing as Tyler Seguin for that reason. In terms of physical tools and attitude though, it seems like Lashoff and Button were drafted as "puck-movers" that play more like college guys too.  I still think it is largely about the individual as opposed to the league.  Perhaps the Bruins are drafting many of the same player-types, but I don't think it is because they are college guys or not. From what little I have heard and seen Bartkowski, Cross, and Trotman are all more rugged, defense-first type players.  Hopefully there is some diversity in the group though and guys with traditional Bruin type attitudes.  I share your concern, if not your premise entirely.
    Posted by Fletcher1

    If your talking about Erik Johnson and Jack Johnson, Im pretty sure they are not related
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    You know BB you may have a good point . Bruins scouts for college are Mike McGraw (High School & Collegiate Scout) and Ryan Nadeau (Director of Hockey Administration Collegiate Scout).
    Maybe these two need a wakeup call ?

    BTW how is Tommy Cross doing ? Injured way too often.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    The one overlooked stat is the number of Americans now playing in the NHL.  It has increased in the past ten years to the point Americans are 20% of NHL players.  Now not all these players go through the college/university system of the United States, but a major of them do.  The number of great defenseman, near their 30s are Canadian is true, this is not to say that some of the younger American college and university players will not become excellent.  Especially if the number of Americans are increasing as the number of Russian and Canadian players diminishes in the NHL future.  Also Chiarelli has been focusing on drafting forwards in the past few years.  I think he is trading for college players in the minor leagues as a way to gain more of an evaluation on their talents facing professional players.  Now will it work out..... ??? Is it an attempt to gain an advantage for untapped future defenseman.... maybe.  Certainly I will look forward to the future for statistical answers not backward to the past.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    http://www.nesn.com/2010/11/new-bruins-acquisition-colin-cohen-doesnt-like-edmonton-and-five-other-bruins-thoughts.html

    "5. The Bruins picking up a college-trained defenseman in Cohen should come as no surprise. Peter Chiarelli has focused on bolstering the blue-line depth in the organization by acquiring players with college backgrounds. Last year, he traded for Steve Kampfer (Michigan), Matt Bartkowski (Ohio State) and Cody Wild (Providence College) at the deadline and David Warsofsky (Boston University) at the draft. They join Mark Stuart (Colorado College), Jeff Penner (Alaska-Fairbanks), Tommy Cross (Boston College) and Mark Goggin (Dartmouth) as college defensemen in the Bruins system."

    Playing the percentages of whom will fight their way up to the big Bs is going to happen with some of these players. Chiarelli allowed McQuaid (not a collegian) to compete for the number 6 spot and  Adam won. Mark Stuart needs to step it up tonight would be a nice start or he might be losing a spot come next September.

    PS. Chris Chelios, Rob Blake and Duncan Keith (to name a few) were college hockey players don't think they were role players whatsoever.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    In Response to Re: College Defensemen:
    In Response to Re: College Defensemen : If your talking about Erik Johnson and Jack Johnson, Im pretty sure they are not related
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie


    That is correct -- it was a joke about the shampoo.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Hey SanDogBrewin....I wonder if it's because the Colleage kids come cheaper than out of the Major Junior that our GM likes the Colleage kids ?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheShepherd. Show TheShepherd's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    Theres no question there  are great american born defenseman that played college hockey, and there may be some great ones to come out in the future... what im saying is they are so few and far between, the odds of drafting one are very slim. its a risk.

    I also think this is just a phase that PC is in. If i remember correctly, it was oconnel and/or sinden that used a lot of picks in the early 2000's on a bunch of guys from across the pond.

    looking for diamonds in the coal
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jalvis. Show jalvis's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    In Response to Re: College Defensemen:
    Segiun's immense talents are impossible to ignore, but I've never seen anyone so obsessed with avoiding contact.
    Posted by JWensink


    Two words: Phil Kessel.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    In Response to Re: College Defensemen:
    Hey SanDogBrewin....I wonder if it's because the Colleage kids come cheaper than out of the Major Junior that our GM likes the Colleage kids ? Posted by Stuke50


    Stuke, I'm trying to figure out his formula as well. Fletcher thinks play percentages to which Dman will rise to the top. I'm not comparing Kampfer and Bartkowski to Duncan Keith by no means but did Dale Tallon know that

    2003-2004     Norfolk Admirals-AHL     75     7     18     25          
    2004-2005     Norfolk Admirals-AHL     79     9     17     26

    ...Would translate to Norris what are your thoughts ? Keith wasn't an overnight star...
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: College Defensemen

    God! The only Bruin defenseman that I remember being from a college that had an excellent career is Don Sweeny, but he played a lot of yrs with Raymond as his partner. BB is it only college d-men that the B's had trouble with? Just quickly off the top of my head. I'm thinking Bryan Smolinski- MSU, Blaine Lacher- LS, are 2 that pop out. Did Ted Donato & Steve Heize have the careers they should've, or were they disappointments too? Also where Fletch mentions that coming out of college they end up being more mature therefore more ready. Is that a true statement? I figured in JR you play a lot more games & especailly now where you're going up against players from across the planet. Wouldn't more play & ice prepare you more? Not saying Fletch is wrong. Just asking which way to look to it.

     
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