Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    "2 perfect examples of real and staged.  Iggy. Very real with anger.  ST staged with no benefit." - - 'shuperman'

    Interestingly, this gives me an idea, just spit-balling here (lighting a candle rather than merely shunning the darkness). If they need a 'gentler' path toward phasing fighting out rather than eliminating it right now (though either way fighting will be taken out of the game).

    Is there a distinction to be made between a fight that takes place, say, 30 seconds after a face-off (like Iginla's 'heat-of-the-moment' fight) and a fight that happens right at the face-off (Thornton's 'staged' fight)?

    If there was a distinction to be made, could you extra-penalize two fighters who fight at any time in the first, say, 10 or 20 seconds after a face-off?

    Is there a way - when two players fight in the mere seconds after a puck drop, when most 'staged fights' happen - that they could face potential game misconduct penalties for 'Staged Fighting"?

    With a new rule like this, for two 'Goons' to stage a fight, they would have to plan to follow each other around focussing not on the play but on the fight they were about to have with each other. They would effectively look exactly like two guys planning a fight with each other - as the play raged around them - to the potential and real-time detriment to their team.

    It could expose the staged fight for what it is; an absurd notion.

    It would render the combatants silly, it would render their fight pointless - but more to the point, for a coach, it would be strategically very risky.  They would actually have to play a good portion of a shift first if they were bent on fighting.

    Fights that occur (like say Iginla's) the more reactive, heat-of-the-moment, 'organic' (if you will) fight, that occurs, during the course of play, would be penalized as they are now - with a 5 min. fighting major.

     

     

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    Last night Iginla's fight was about passion and correcting a cheap hit. Keep it in, but eliminate the Thorny step in front of McQ move

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    gord, I seem to remember a few years back they tried out just such a rule, assessing an additional penalty (or something like that) for fights directly off of face-offs.  I don't know what happened to that though.

    -- Proud user of Chambraigne; Now with Wiener Scent! --

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

     

     

    I think fighting will always be part of the game, over time you'll just see less and less enforcers doing it.




     

     



    I keep thinking the same.  Then teams keep bringing them in.  Look at the leafs, they have 2.  Ottawa has Neil, felt the need to bring in Kassian.  Montreal had Prust-White and brought in Parros.  Everyteam but Detroit and possibly the Caps have a legit Clown.    They should grandfather goons.  Have a skill test.   Gotta pass to be considered for the NHL, they is applied from past resume.  

     

     




    And that s it. Soon the days of Parros, Orr etc..will be gone and teams will employ  players like Neil. Guys who can fight, but can play also. Fighting will be down, but the fights will be spirited, not calculated.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    Looks like fighting might be up this year. Tons of it in pre-season and so far numerous fights.

    Looks like, dare I say, the enforcers are going down fighting?....

    Okay, that was bad.




    That was actually funny and I agree.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

     

     

    I think fighting will always be part of the game, over time you'll just see less and less enforcers doing it.




     

     



    I keep thinking the same.  Then teams keep bringing them in.  Look at the leafs, they have 2.  Ottawa has Neil, felt the need to bring in Kassian.  Montreal had Prust-White and brought in Parros.  Everyteam but Detroit and possibly the Caps have a legit Clown.    They should grandfather goons.  Have a skill test.   Gotta pass to be considered for the NHL, they is applied from past resume.  

     

     




    And that s it. Soon the days of Parros, Orr etc..will be gone and teams will employ  players like Neil. Guys who can fight, but can play also. Fighting will be down, but the fights will be spirited, not calculated.

     



    Dont let dez read this.  Neil is a perfect example.  Prust is another.   Clarkson.   guys are gonna have to transform their game.  Prust has some skill, lots of grit, can fight and is a great pk guy.  What does scott, st, parros and orr offer?   Zippo.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to bogie6's comment:

    Last night Iginla's fight was about passion and correcting a cheap hit. Keep it in, but eliminate the Thorny step in front of McQ move



    That was no cheap hit.  It was clean, iggy didn't like it.   I'm ok with him dropping the gloves if he felt he had to though.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to hangnail's comment:

    In response to bogie6's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Last night Iginla's fight was about passion and correcting a cheap hit. Keep it in, but eliminate the Thorny step in front of McQ move

     



    That was no cheap hit.  It was clean, iggy didn't like it.   I'm ok with him dropping the gloves if he felt he had to though.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I didnt see anything dirty. Gudas kid isnt afraid to to get physical.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    I'm still waiting for a bunch of retired boxers to get together and launch a class action lawsuit against the WBC, WBA, for unsafe working conditions and brain injuries resulting from fighting. Its bound to happen, right?  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    I've been thinking a lot about this. What I absolutely love about hockey is the balance between skill and physicality. Any discussion should begin and end with player safety, but a very close second needs to be: does Proposed Change X add to or subtract from the core attributes of hockey: speed, skill and toughness?

     

    The more I think about it, we seem to be trending away from physicality in a move to protect players. Hits to the head, open ice hits, hitting from behind, stick work, etc are all getting legislated out of the game. We've all seen hits that by the letter of the law are legal, but they are so vicious that a penalty is called anyway. Clearly the NHL is willing to sacrifice some of the rough stuff to protect players.

     

    Which makes it all the more hard to understand why fighting is protected.

     

    So I end up in a very selfish place on this issue - why not just eliminate fighting? If the NHL wants to send a message that they are all about player safety, eliminate the ability to jam one's knuckles into another's face repeatedly and with great force. It's a clear message that player health is the most important.

     

    Then, with everyone in a cozy mental place with how good the NHL is on protecting its players, they should ALLOW clean, hard, legal hits - open ice or otherwise. That's how players change momentum in a game. That's how they show their teammates they "got their back". That's how they police the ice and protect their stars. Shawn Thornton shouldn't fight someone because they took liberties with Krejci. Instead, Thornton, Lucic, Boychuck, McQuaid...heck even Krejci himself should be able to line up the other guy and make his life miserable in a legit, legal hard-hitting way.

     

    This way, the game maintains its core attributes, without people's skulls getting damaged. In fact, eliminating fighting should, under such circumstances, only enhance the physical stuff in other facets of the game: like Olympic and playoff hockey does.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to asmaha's comment:

    I've been thinking a lot about this. What I absolutely love about hockey is the balance between skill and physicality. Any discussion should begin and end with player safety, but a very close second needs to be: does Proposed Change X add to or subtract from the core attributes of hockey: speed, skill and toughness?

     

    The more I think about it, we seem to be trending away from physicality in a move to protect players. Hits to the head, open ice hits, hitting from behind, stick work, etc are all getting legislated out of the game. We've all seen hits that by the letter of the law are legal, but they are so vicious that a penalty is called anyway. Clearly the NHL is willing to sacrifice some of the rough stuff to protect players.

     

    Which makes it all the more hard to understand why fighting is protected.

     

    So I end up in a very selfish place on this issue - why not just eliminate fighting? If the NHL wants to send a message that they are all about player safety, eliminate the ability to jam one's knuckles into another's face repeatedly and with great force. It's a clear message that player health is the most important.

     

    Then, with everyone in a cozy mental place with how good the NHL is on protecting its players, they should ALLOW clean, hard, legal hits - open ice or otherwise. That's how players change momentum in a game. That's how they show their teammates they "got their back". That's how they police the ice and protect their stars. Shawn Thornton shouldn't fight someone because they took liberties with Krejci. Instead, Thornton, Lucic, Boychuck, McQuaid...heck even Krejci himself should be able to line up the other guy and make his life miserable in a legit, legal hard-hitting way.

     

    This way, the game maintains its core attributes, without people's skulls getting damaged. In fact, eliminating fighting should, under such circumstances, only enhance the physical stuff in other facets of the game: like Olympic and playoff hockey does.

     



    Problem is you replace knuckles with a stick or face wash.  Stars would drop like flies with kaletas flying around.  Yes i know cooke has been getting away with it...hes a different animal.  i like what bieksa said..."we will play with tennis balls before we take fighting out".  The players understand, the bleeding hearts (san) can take up another sport.  I dont like clowns but if you take fighting out, take hitting out as well.  

    im not worried bc the players are so heavily in favor it will never go.  For all those against it, td bank sure liked it when iggy dropped them.   I could have cared less when tbay clown and ST clown dropped their gloves.  Useless waste of a roster spot.  Just think mason raymond is making less then him.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    Very eloquently put, 'asmaha'. I totally agree.

    In hockey as in life, the baseline should always be one of diplomacy. We should always strive for the diplomatic resolution. It is unsustainable - and untrue - to say that the game starts from a foundation of violence, that fighting is one of the game's core values (it isn't), that fighting is the way to keep the peace in the game, to ensure 'honesty' (it doesn't)

    War is when diplomacy ends and the crimes begin.

    it's the first thing we teach our kids, fighting solves nothing.

    To predict worse outcomes in the game if fighting is abolished - stickwork, cheap shots, pickpocketing - brings to mind those who warned that abolishing slavery in the US would wreck its economy. It was plainly simply the right thing to do. The NHL has to gather the courage to do the right thing.

    Fighting keeps the game stuck, clinging to a small and outdated ideology. It's unsustainable in a world that is always trying to fix itself. It is bad for business

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to gord11's comment:

    Very eloquently put, 'asmaha'. I totally agree.

    In hockey as in life, the baseline should always be one of diplomacy. We should always strive for the diplomatic resolution. It is unsustainable - and untrue - to say that the game starts from a foundation of violence, that fighting is one of the game's core values (it isn't), that fighting is the way to keep the peace in the game, to ensure 'honesty' (it doesn't)

    War is when diplomacy ends and the crimes begin.

    it's the first thing we teach our kids, fighting solves nothing.

    To predict worse outcomes in the game if fighting is abolished - stickwork, cheap shots, pickpocketing - brings to mind those who warned that abolishing slavery in the US would wreck its economy. It was plainly simply the right thing to do. The NHL has to gather the courage to do the right thing.

    Fighting keeps the game stuck, clinging to a small and outdated ideology. It's unsustainable in a world that is always trying to fix itself. It is bad for business



    Thats the biggest load of junk i have ever read on here.  And i say that with as much respect as possible.  

    The players are the ones that play the game.  They voted 98% in favor of fighting.  They know that without fighting there will be madness.  

    I beg you to go watch some university hockey.  I wont teach my kid that fighting solves nothing.  I dont live in a gingerbread world.  I dont want him starting fights.  But when pushed we are human.  We will react.  

    I work in the police world.  We seem to be hiring more of this train of thought type individuals.  They score great on the tests, have zero life skill and are brought in to try and assist with things they have no idea how to fix or mend.  Early childhood development touches on this.  if hidden in a shell kids dont know how to respond.  I watched my little guy playing with a kid the other day who is an obvious bully.  It was heart aching to watch and we left a while later.  I dont want him to be bullied but he needs to see it, know it exists and learn how to deal with it.  When he hits a certain age i will have that little talk with him.  

    Hockey is a physical sport, more people have been hurt in icing chases then in hockey fights.   I remember a few yrs ago everyone was rightfully concerned about the suicides of nhl tough guys.  It faded, we moved on, we didnt forget but fighting didnt stop.   I would rather take a punch in the nose over a stick.   

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to gord11's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Very eloquently put, 'asmaha'. I totally agree.

    In hockey as in life, the baseline should always be one of diplomacy. We should always strive for the diplomatic resolution. It is unsustainable - and untrue - to say that the game starts from a foundation of violence, that fighting is one of the game's core values (it isn't), that fighting is the way to keep the peace in the game, to ensure 'honesty' (it doesn't)

    War is when diplomacy ends and the crimes begin.

    it's the first thing we teach our kids, fighting solves nothing.

    To predict worse outcomes in the game if fighting is abolished - stickwork, cheap shots, pickpocketing - brings to mind those who warned that abolishing slavery in the US would wreck its economy. It was plainly simply the right thing to do. The NHL has to gather the courage to do the right thing.

    Fighting keeps the game stuck, clinging to a small and outdated ideology. It's unsustainable in a world that is always trying to fix itself. It is bad for business

     



    Thats the biggest load of junk i have ever read on here.  And i say that with as much respect as possible.  

     

    The players are the ones that play the game.  They voted 98% in favor of fighting.  They know that without fighting there will be madness.  

    I beg you to go watch some university hockey.  I wont teach my kid that fighting solves nothing.  I dont live in a gingerbread world.  I dont want him starting fights.  But when pushed we are human.  We will react.  

    I work in the police world.  We seem to be hiring more of this train of thought type individuals.  They score great on the tests, have zero life skill and are brought in to try and assist with things they have no idea how to fix or mend.  Early childhood development touches on this.  if hidden in a shell kids dont know how to respond.  I watched my little guy playing with a kid the other day who is an obvious bully.  It was heart aching to watch and we left a while later.  I dont want him to be bullied but he needs to see it, know it exists and learn how to deal with it.  When he hits a certain age i will have that little talk with him.  

    Hockey is a physical sport, more people have been hurt in icing chases then in hockey fights.   I remember a few yrs ago everyone was rightfully concerned about the suicides of nhl tough guys.  It faded, we moved on, we didnt forget but fighting didnt stop.   I would rather take a punch in the nose over a stick.   

    [/QUOTE]

    Well said Shupe.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    "Well said Shupe." - '50belowzero'


    Not really.

     

    And I say that with as much respect as possible.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    gord,

    answer me this, 2 incidents.  

    1.  Marchand abusing Sedin

    2.  Kasper owning Lemieux

    please explain to me how this wont become a nightly event.  Go watch both on youtube.  If someone can paste them please do.  

    Ulf, claude lemieux, marchand, kasper, cooke, kaleta, torres, marchment, ken the rat, lapierre etc etc etc.  this is the reason fighting must exist.  

    Cam getting kneed by ulf, response was to beat him down or domi him.  

    The 70s and 80s were much more violent then now.  There was also a lot more respect for the other player.  This new age has no respect, likely why fighting is up as well.  

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    gord,

    answer me this, 2 incidents.  

    1.  Marchand abusing Sedin

    2.  Kasper owning Lemieux

    please explain to me how this wont become a nightly event.  Go watch both on youtube.  If someone can paste them please do.  

    Ulf, claude lemieux, marchand, kasper, cooke, kaleta, torres, marchment, ken the rat, lapierre etc etc etc.  this is the reason fighting must exist.  

    Cam getting kneed by ulf, response was to beat him down or domi him.  

    The 70s and 80s were much more violent then now.  There was also a lot more respect for the other player.  This new age has no respect, likely why fighting is up as well.  




    Number one reason why fighting will stay in the game and should stay in the game. The second you take fighting out, I give it the until the first period of the first game before people star pointing out how this would never have happened if fighting were still allowed.

    No fighting in the Olympics. Great hockey. let those teams play each other over the course of a couple of months and you'd have to allow fighting or they would just do it until they make it legal.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to gord11's comment:

    "Well said Shupe." - '50belowzero'


    Not really.

     

    And I say that with as much respect as possible.



    Diplomacy only exists if everyone lives in this same gingerbread house.  The world does not work this way.  Not even close.  Come to work with me or kelv for a month.  

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    gord,

    answer me this, 2 incidents.  

    1.  Marchand abusing Sedin

    2.  Kasper owning Lemieux

    please explain to me how this wont become a nightly event.  Go watch both on youtube.  If someone can paste them please do.  

    Ulf, claude lemieux, marchand, kasper, cooke, kaleta, torres, marchment, ken the rat, lapierre etc etc etc.  this is the reason fighting must exist.  

    Cam getting kneed by ulf, response was to beat him down or domi him.  

    The 70s and 80s were much more violent then now.  There was also a lot more respect for the other player.  This new age has no respect, likely why fighting is up as well.  

     




    Number one reason why fighting will stay in the game and should stay in the game. The second you take fighting out, I give it the until the first period of the first game before people star pointing out how this would never have happened if fighting were still allowed.

     

    No fighting in the Olympics. Great hockey. let those teams play each other over the course of a couple of months and you'd have to allow fighting or they would just do it until they make it legal.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ever watch sweden vs finland.  Ruthless stick work.  Also diving at an all time high.  Soccer has nothing on them.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    Guess what? All the things listed that supposedly would happen if fighting were eliminated happen anyway - WITH fighting as a supposed deterrent. "Ruthless stick work"?  "Diving at an all time high"? "Headshots"? "Cheap shots"? "Lack of respect"? Fighting does nothing. It just makes more fighting. Shawn Thornton has done nothing to make the game better or safer or more honest.

    Marchand abuses Sedin with full knowledge that the prosepct of getting 'beat down' for it exists. He does it anyway, doesn't get 'beat down' BUT receives a suspension. Sedin plays the next game, Marchand doesn't. As it should be. What should Sedin have done differently to reform or correct Brad Marchand? Fighting him is not going to change Marchand's mind or judgement. Putting him in the penalty box or suspending him will, incuring the wrath of his coach for putting his team in jeopardy will. As it should be. Matt Cooke - to the extent that he has reformed - was not reformed by being 'beat down' (even that charade of a thing with Shawn Thornton). He was changed by seeing that his actions were hurting his own team.

    Diplomacy might exist only in a gingerbread house - whatever that means

    But fighting exists in a vacuum - affected and affecting nothing

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to gord11's comment:

    Guess what? All the things listed that supposedly would happen if fighting were eliminated happen anyway - WITH fighting as a supposed deterrent. "Ruthless stick work"?  "Diving at an all time high"? "Headshots"? "Cheap shots"? "Lack of respect"? Fighting does nothing. It just makes more fighting. Shawn Thornton has done nothing to make the game better or safer or more honest.

    Marchand abuses Sedin with full knowledge that the prosepct of getting 'beat down' for it exists. He does it anyway, doesn't get 'beat down' BUT receives a suspension. Sedin plays the next game, Marchand doesn't. As it should be. What should Sedin have done differently to reform or correct Brad Marchand? Fighting him is not going to change Marchand's mind or judgement. Putting him in the penalty box or suspending him will, incuring the wrath of his coach for putting his team in jeopardy will. As it should be. Matt Cooke - to the extent that he has reformed - was not reformed by being 'beat down' (even that charade of a thing with Shawn Thornton). He was changed by seeing that his actions were hurting his own team.

    Diplomacy might exist only in a gingerbread house - whatever that means

    But fighting exists in a vacuum - affected and affecting nothing



    You think gretzky would have been punked like that?  Hello semenko, please take of this annoying person.  Mario had NO ONE, Sedin had NO ONE, cams career ruined, he beat the tar outta him before leaving, ulf gets kod by domi(sweet justice) Take the instigator out and watch it go back to the ways of old.  Back in the day how many ulfs were their?   Seems every team has one now.  Why?  Bc the players cant police it like they used to.  

    What should have haapened to marchand is that someone should have responded, they have been labelled yellow and have never found their way since, they even traded for guys to try and make them harder to play against should that happen again.   You can only live in this diplomacy if everyone buys into it.  They dont!  Matt Cooke wouldnt have lived in the 70s and 80s.  Someone would have hurt him.  Remember ken linesman getting a face rake with stick.  

    So yes, sedin did the appropriate thing, his team lost all mojo, they were beat down and lost their will.  ST also played a role in the finals.  He threw players off their game, he also abused Sedin.  Guess what team won the cup.   The physical abuse took them off their game.  No push back.  Had they had an ounce of sack they respond.   The montreal beat down the other year was a massacre...but i gained respect for them for at least showing up. 

    marios team was supposed to win the cup until kasper came along.  There is no way in heck i want my superstar getting abused like that.  Gretzky and Yzerman never seemed to get that treatment.   Had probert or semenko been on the ice when cooke ended savards career guess who would have been throttled.  ST is useless in his role bc he is too diplomatic.  Orr is crazy.  Orr watched his team mate get run, he cross checks buddy in the head.  You think hes gonna run buddy again?  

    go watch some leagues with no fighting or game misconducts.   The stick work is brutal.  Every guy is a tough guy.  

    The great thing is the players want it to stay,   they understand that the pests need raid to keep them from multiplying.  Its not to keep the goons in check.  

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    In response to gord11's comment:

    Very eloquently put, 'asmaha'. I totally agree.

    In hockey as in life, the baseline should always be one of diplomacy. We should always strive for the diplomatic resolution. It is unsustainable - and untrue - to say that the game starts from a foundation of violence, that fighting is one of the game's core values (it isn't), that fighting is the way to keep the peace in the game, to ensure 'honesty' (it doesn't)

    War is when diplomacy ends and the crimes begin.

    it's the first thing we teach our kids, fighting solves nothing.

    To predict worse outcomes in the game if fighting is abolished - stickwork, cheap shots, pickpocketing - brings to mind those who warned that abolishing slavery in the US would wreck its economy. It was plainly simply the right thing to do. The NHL has to gather the courage to do the right thing.

    Fighting keeps the game stuck, clinging to a small and outdated ideology. It's unsustainable in a world that is always trying to fix itself. It is bad for business

    Gord, you are bright guy and craft a great argument but you are missing something. Hockey is not the real world. It's a sport and exists for entertainment and like most forms of entertainment, does not exist or thrive by convention. You are trying to impose a logical, even legal argument on something that exists in an insular world set apart from normal society.

    Of course hockey is an unsafe workplace. If it wasn't it wouldn't exist. Allowing fighting is less of an unsafe element than allowing checking. Should that be banned too? Of course not. If you think fighting will be pushed out of the game by those who don't like it you are simply dead wrong.

    Cheers

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    I fall into the camp that is set against the skating clowns but support fighting in other limited circumstances. Get rid of the clowns, and get rid of the scraps over a clean hit, but leave it in for the players who take cheap shots.

    Now that may sound fine and dandy but it causes another problem which I think would make it impossible to get rid of the clowns entirely. If you leave it in so as to discourage the pests you still are going to need players who can fight but who can also contribute as hockey players. If the goons are gone, and you're going to allow fighting still, someone with a better skill set will have to answer the bell. That's fine by me, but it leaves a void because some teams just simply do not have those types of players.

    Teams like the Bruins are stacked top to bottom with skilled players who are willing to drop the gloves - and can do so effectively - in order to stand up for themselves or a teammate. But not every team has a Zdeno Chara, Adam McQuaid, Milan Lucic, Jarome Iginla, Gregory Campbell, Chris Kelly - lord even Patrice Bergeron and Marc Savard have been willing to fight for the Bruins. They can get by without a goon, and so can other teams like the Hawks, Kings and Jets. 

    But then you have teams like the Canucks. They sorely lack players with at least a modicum of skill that will also scrap when needed. So they grab a goon (the late Rick Rypien for example since I mentioned the Canucks) in order to compensate. This causes an arms escalation of sorts as you're faced with either having Lucic trade time in the box with someone of a much lower skill set, or you get your own goon so you don't lose a skilled player to the box while the opponent only loses a clown. That's why we have ST or a team like the Jets have Thorburn. They have better fighters on their teams than either of those two players, but it makes no sense to have Chara or Byfuglien sitting in the box when your opponent only loses John Scott for 5 minutes.

    The best solution? Get the weakass teams to hire tougher skilled players. Unfortunately they aren't always easy to find - it doesn't seem to be as common a skillset as it once was - and I don't think you can, to continue the arms analogy, ask some teams to just unilaterally disarm.

    You could get rid of all the staged fights just by getting all the teams in the NHL to hire real hockey players. That seems a lot easier said than done.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Cue the Bugle Corps: The end of Fighting is Near

    "Hockey is not the real world..." - 'WalkTheLine'

    You are absolutely correct.

    And it is for this reason that hockey - and indeed all sports - are meant to hint at, to strive for  man's ideal, they are nor meant to merely mirror our reality.

    Fighting does not hint at man's ideal. 

     
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