Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The IQ thing can be confusing to some.  Seguin has some exceptional natural talents.  Shot, speed, stick-handling.  Those don't automatically translate into a lucrative NHL career.  The maturation process will make him better in many ways, but it will in no way impact that IQ quotient.  Being able to fathom what "will' happen on the ice, how "to' maximise your playing partners strengths....those intangibles can't be taught.  Gretzky wasn't arguably the best ever because he mastered every skill to perfection, it was his ability to see what others couldn't, coupled with high skill levels.  The ability to channel energy as opposed to wasting it,... literally dozens of intangibles.

    RESPONSE: I guess that, by hockey IQ, you're referring to instincts for the game. The ability to anticipate, and to adequately judge when to pass, when to rush, and when to shoot the puck. Gretzky had those things. So did Bobby Orr. 

    Seguin had some knocks in Jrs about his game, then it appearred he overcame them.  The Bruins have had a complete change of heart on this kids overall potential.  A complete 180 in the last year.  I don't think they did that because of his maturation development.  They didn't do it because of the cap.  I'm of the belief they traded Seguin because they've given up on the idea he'll become elite.  They can deal with maturity if neccessary, but they can't teach those other senses that are paramount to eliteness. 



    RESPONSE: Perhaps you're right about the B's losing faith that Seguin would ever reach his full potential. Otherwise, why make this trade?

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Onthe405. Show Onthe405's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    I would have given Seguin another year, but whatever. Throwing Horton out of the discussion, the team right now is better post trade. We'll see what happens with Tyler, but I've seen enough Stars games to know that Eriksson is the better player presently. I think coming close to the cup this year, the B's are in win now mode, not wait for maturity and consistency mode. People waiting for elite level return on the trade when Seguin has 3 years in the league and hasn't shown he was worth elite level trade value=unrealistic. In Tylers defensive, he was only 21, but the sample size was ample. Getting rid of Peverley who was overpaid made this deal worth it. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Onthe405's comment:

    I would have given Seguin another year, but whatever. Throwing Horton out of the discussion, the team right now is better post trade. We'll see what happens with Tyler, but I've seen enough Stars games to know that Eriksson is the better player presently. I think coming close to the cup this year, the B's are in win now mode, not wait for maturity and consistency mode. People waiting for elite level return on the trade when Seguin has 3 years in the league and hasn't shown he was worth elite level trade value=unrealistic. In Tylers defensive, he was only 21, but the sample size was ample. Getting rid of Peverley who was overpaid made this deal worth it. 



    RESPONSE: As currently constructed, do you think that the Bruins have enough talent to challenge the Black Hawks and others next year? What do you see as the team's greatest strength, and weakness?

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    Butler..??? hah

    Thanks for the info......infinitially more valuable than all the bulllshi*t rumours!!

    I am hoping Matthias and Markstrom keep progressing as I see them as the cornerstones of that franchises' success!

    Keep us posted my friend.

    Happy 4rth!!!

     



    I think that Huberdeau kid, along with Barkov, Kulikov, Gudbransonov, Bjugstadov, and maybe Grimaldiov are at least as imporntant as those two. 

    I wonder if Tallon is pitching Markstrom as his goalie just to reap a few more years of top five picks?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:


    I think that Huberdeau kid, along with Barkov, Kulikov, Gudbransonov, Bjugstadov, and maybe Grimaldiov are at least as imporntant as those two. 

    I wonder if Tallon is pitching Markstrom as his goalie just to reap a few more years of top five picks?



    After watching yesterday's display, it's clear that Tallon is completely handcuffed by ownership.  There is no way he was spurned by everyone except Jesse Winchester, Joey Crabb and Mike Freakin' Mottau.

    Seriously, those are the additions. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    "Jesse Winchester, Joey Crabb and Mike Freakin' Mottau."

     

    That's a bad western, you cannot make that up.





     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's comment:

    Trading Seguin for. Ericksson ...even for now ..we dont know yet if Seguin has reached his peak

    Looks like Matt Fraser is the best prospect...interesti g

    Getting Peverley away from the city of Boston...PRICELESS

     

     Stanley Cup to the BRUINS in 2011 & 4 more Cups by 2020



    Matt Fraser was the best prospect Stanley?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?


    BadHabitude
    Posts: 13032
    First: 7/2/2008
    Last: 1/31/2015
    In response to StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's comment:

    In order my 3 picks I will strongly recommand to PC in Philadelphia :

     

    no.1 : Nikita Sherbak

     

    no 2 : Jakub Vrana

     

    no 3 : Nicolay Goldobin

     

     

     

    Stanley Cup to the BRUINS in 2011 & 3 more Cups by 2020

     

    And NOT ONE of Stanley's picks has played a SINGLE GAME in the NHL.
    Stanley proves his ability to evaluate talent.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    No.  They got good talent back, but when trading Seguin you should get an "elite prospect" or pick back, which Chiarelli said he wanted. If one of the prospects excels, then the Bruins may know something the rest of us don't.  But baring that, Seguin is the kind of player that could bring you much more than the Bruins received.




    Why should Seguin return an elite prospect?  He's not elite.  Not even close


    And you can take that to the bank!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Is this really necessary:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:



    And almost two years later...yep apparently 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    Bhab, why are you ripping Stanley?  Are you headed to the Special Olympics with geometry quizzes later, too?

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:


    The only two things that I know are that Weiss is gone and Horton isn't coming.  I've developed a pretty good relationship with someone pretty damn high up in the organization.  I generally blow him up with my fantastic "Tell Tallon to do this:" emails.  Once in a while I get a tidbit about future plans.  In regards to me admonishing the idea of Horton coming back, the response was "Don't worry".  That says it all to me.

    They bought out Kuba, but did it outside of the compliance, so his money still counts against the cap.  That tells me it's going to be another long season for real Panthers fans.  Management seems to think they have good players from the recent drafts that will bring on some real success. 



    When Yormark left, my info pipeline was shut down.  That guy was so cool. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Bhab, why are you ripping Stanley?  Are you headed to the Special Olympics with geometry quizzes later, too?

    Because he deserves to be ripped.  For being the longest lasting biggest troll on this forum.  

    He can take his fantasies somewhere else and leave this forum.



     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    No.  They got good talent back, but when trading Seguin you should get an "elite prospect" or pick back, which Chiarelli said he wanted. If one of the prospects excels, then the Bruins may know something the rest of us don't.  But baring that, Seguin is the kind of player that could bring you much more than the Bruins received.




    Why should Seguin return an elite prospect?  He's not elite.  Not even close


    And you can take that to the bank!


    lol.  I still maintain that the Bruins should have got a young player back with potential to be a star.  Like Philly getting Voracek and the 8th pick for Carter.  For me you should always be trading for more potential and youth if you're not doing a straight up player for equal player swap, or bringing in a vet for a playoff run.  I'm sure the Bruins could have gotten a second line forward and a top-5 pick.  The closer Eriksson gets to free agency the worse the deal looks for Boston.

    Lucky for PC, Smith really seems like a fantastic pick up.  The Smith-Eriksson combo is a real nice return, with Morrow also having potential.  But I still think they could have gotten something better/younger.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

     response to OatesCam's comment:



    lol.  I still maintain that the Bruins should have got a young player back with potential to be a star.  Like Philly getting Voracek and the 8th pick for Carter.  For me you should always be trading for more potential and youth if you're not doing a straight up player for equal player swap, or bringing in a vet for a playoff run.  I'm sure the Bruins could have gotten a second line forward and a top-5 pick.  The closer Eriksson gets to free agency the worse the deal looks for Boston.

    Lucky for PC, Smith really seems like a fantastic pick up.  The Smith-Eriksson combo is a real nice return, with Morrow also having potential.  But I still think they could have gotten something better/younger.



    Thing is though, the B's were at a different place than Philly.  The Bruins were tinkering with a great shot to win it all.  Philly was dismantleing.

    The prospect thing, made for a throw away season post Kessel.  I wasn't a big fan of that.  The window of opportunity isn't very large.  I guess there's always the thought of something better, but I believe this team has been tougher to beat with Smith and Ericsson, than it would have been with Tyler, and some AHL forward which would have been a necessary roster fill in.

    Regardless what happens to Louis down the road(or Morrow for that matter), to date...it's fairly clear to me it wasn't a bad deal.

    Here's what I could maybe agree with though.  Had the Bruins kept him...Tyler would be worth considerably more now...than he was when they moved him.  What he's done in Dallas shouldn't be a shocker to anyone.  He's a gifted offensive player, and while he was only a kid when he was here...., his body of work, made it logical to assume he'd grow as a player.  At the time...his overal "value"(see cap hit) was really questionable, and that is huge for a cup contending team to deal with.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to stevegm's comment:

     response to OatesCam's comment:



    lol.  I still maintain that the Bruins should have got a young player back with potential to be a star.  Like Philly getting Voracek and the 8th pick for Carter.  For me you should always be trading for more potential and youth if you're not doing a straight up player for equal player swap, or bringing in a vet for a playoff run.  I'm sure the Bruins could have gotten a second line forward and a top-5 pick.  The closer Eriksson gets to free agency the worse the deal looks for Boston.

    Lucky for PC, Smith really seems like a fantastic pick up.  The Smith-Eriksson combo is a real nice return, with Morrow also having potential.  But I still think they could have gotten something better/younger.



    Thing is though, the B's were at a different place than Philly.  The Bruins were tinkering with a great shot to win it all.  Philly was dismantleing.

    The prospect thing, made for a throw away season post Kessel.  I wasn't a big fan of that.  The window of opportunity isn't very large.  I guess there's always the thought of something better, but I believe this team has been tougher to beat with Smith and Ericsson, than it would have been with Tyler, and some AHL forward which would have been a necessary roster fill in.

    Regardless what happens to Louis down the road(or Morrow for that matter), to date...it's fairly clear to me it wasn't a bad deal.

    Here's what I could maybe agree with though.  Had the Bruins kept him...Tyler would be worth considerably more now...than he was when they moved him.  What he's done in Dallas shouldn't be a shocker to anyone.  He's a gifted offensive player, and while he was only a kid when he was here...., his body of work, made it logical to assume he'd grow as a player.  At the time...his overal "value"(see cap hit) was really questionable, and that is huge for a cup contending team to deal with.



    The key would have been to make multiple moves, just as the Bruins did do with the Seguin deal they made.  I don't think they really expected Smith to be as good as he was as quick as he was.  Their plan was for Eriksson to come in and fill line 2, and they used the cash saved to sign Iginla.  So assume they still sign Iginla, but then make some hypothetical deal for a top-6 type player and an elite prospect.  Hypothetically lets say the rumoured Drouin deal happened and the Bruins got Teddy Purcell and Jonathan Drouin for Seguin.  Purcell rounds out line 2 and gets his usual 20ish goals and 50ish points which is just fine for that role.  Drouin doesn't make the team, but the Bruins fill out their 3rd line as best they can and swing a deal to add some talent at the deadline.  Today they would have the rookie Drouin in the lineup looking real good and with a lot of time playing for the Bruins before UFA status comes into it.  Cheap, high-end talent for this year and the next two meaning cap concerns would be moot.

    I'm a big fan of both Eriksson and Smith - and there's little to deny that the team is better today than if they either made the trade I'm proposing or kept Tyler - but I think in terms of talent and value, having an elite young talent would be better and you could spend the cash saved to round out your team.  And if in two years Drouin was too expensive you could do it all again and deal him for more talent like Kessel and Seguin.  I just like the idea of dealing to get younger, cheaper and further from UFA status.  If you constantly deal a high-end young talent for one or two younger high-end talents, eventually you have so much talent you're a dynasty.

    Now, I don't know if a deal like that was out there, but I think if it wasn't the Bruins should have held on to Seguin like you say and played him bunch until his trade value rose. He was already a 29G and 67 point guy at 20, there was no denying he could score 40 and 80 at some point.  If you don't like the rest of his game, let him score the points, then sell him high.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    "Should have" is always a dead zone.  The Canucks got burned on Luongo because someone thought they "should have" gotten an elite return for a goalie with an Olympic gold medal and a long term starter's pedigree.  The Oilers are getting burned right this very minute based on the perception that they "should" be able to trade their underperforming high end young players for someone else's high end young players who ARE performing AND some extra pieces AND a bucket of chicken.

    The trade OC describes is a rebuilding move, and one that I think more teams should consider.  Double down on your high end player when you have talent deficits all over your roster.  Send your Taylor Hall to a team that's primed to turn the corner, so they don't want to wait for the good, young players in their system to make the jump.  You wonder if there was ever a point where Bold Moves could have called Yzerman and said, I'll give you Hall if you give me Johnson, Palat and a first/Brett Connolly. 

    But Steve's right on the nut.  You're a top 5 contender for the Cup, you can't be locked in a cycle of trading young players for even younger players.  They did it with Kessel at the right time (as it turned out) and it paid handsomely.  I said all along, the guys they got back were chosen for both their potential to grow into bigger roles and their ability to step in at RW right away.  It wasn't a Drouin deal where they wanted another guy with super high potential who might never develop the responsible game the Bruins require - it was that nexus of ready to play/potential to grow that scored these three prospects highest.  Fraser was 4/4 - the last piece of the puzzle and the biggest gamble.  He didn't work out.  The other three look like they'll be valuable contributors for a while yet.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    "Should have" is always a dead zone.  The Canucks got burned on Luongo because someone thought they "should have" gotten an elite return for a goalie with an Olympic gold medal and a long term starter's pedigree.  The Oilers are getting burned right this very minute based on the perception that they "should" be able to trade their underperforming high end young players for someone else's high end young players who ARE performing AND some extra pieces AND a bucket of chicken.

    The trade OC describes is a rebuilding move, and one that I think more teams should consider.  Double down on your high end player when you have talent deficits all over your roster.  Send your Taylor Hall to a team that's primed to turn the corner, so they don't want to wait for the good, young players in their system to make the jump.  You wonder if there was ever a point where Bold Moves could have called Yzerman and said, I'll give you Hall if you give me Johnson, Palat and a first/Brett Connolly. 

    But Steve's right on the nut.  You're a top 5 contender for the Cup, you can't be locked in a cycle of trading young players for even younger players.  They did it with Kessel at the right time (as it turned out) and it paid handsomely.  I said all along, the guys they got back were chosen for both their potential to grow into bigger roles and their ability to step in at RW right away.  It wasn't a Drouin deal where they wanted another guy with super high potential who might never develop the responsible game the Bruins require - it was that nexus of ready to play/potential to grow that scored these three prospects highest.  Fraser was 4/4 - the last piece of the puzzle and the biggest gamble.  He didn't work out.  The other three look like they'll be valuable contributors for a while yet.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!




    I like the talent they got back and it may have been the best possible deal.  But I don't think cyling in young high-end talent means you can't contend.  I'm suggesting you use those guys as third liners while you contend.  Seguin was able to play a limited but valuable role in the cup run, and he was a useful piece in the trip to the finals.  Pastrnak looks like he could fill a similar role now.  Moving Seguin for two real nice prospects could be a great way to round out the lineup, and you use the money saved to sign free agents to man the top lines.  The Bruins core is DK/PB/BM/ML.  Free agent signings could have been used to fill the top RW spots as they did with singing Iginla, and you can contend while recycling young talent and keeping the rest of the roster cheap.  Occasionally you may hit a home run like the Bruins did with Hamilton and he becomes a new part of your core.  If a player has flaws, you swap him for something younger again.

    But I'm not bashing the Segin deal at all.  Smith has turned into a fabulous low-cost option for 1st or 2nd line RW.  You have to give Bruins major credit for scouting him.  If Morrow can be a top-4 D that will look real good.  And Eriksson is a very, very good hockey player.  I'm just saying I would, even as a contender, have dealt for a younger, more talented prospect than Smith, and found my Eriksson type player through free agency.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    I like the talent they got back and it may have been the best possible deal.  But I don't think cyling in young high-end talent means you can't contend.  I'm suggesting you use those guys as third liners while you contend.  Seguin was able to play a limited but valuable role in the cup run, and he was a useful piece in the trip to the finals.  Pastrnak looks like he could fill a similar role now.  Moving Seguin for two real nice prospects could be a great way to round out the lineup, and you use the money saved to sign free agents to man the top lines.  The Bruins core is DK/PB/BM/ML.  Free agent signings could have been used to fill the top RW spots as they did with singing Iginla, and you can contend while recycling young talent and keeping the rest of the roster cheap.  Occasionally you may hit a home run like the Bruins did with Hamilton and he becomes a new part of your core.  If a player has flaws, you swap him for something younger again.

    But I'm not bashing the Segin deal at all.  Smith has turned into a fabulous low-cost option for 1st or 2nd line RW.  You have to give Bruins major credit for scouting him.  If Morrow can be a top-4 D that will look real good.  And Eriksson is a very, very good hockey player.  I'm just saying I would, even as a contender, have dealt for a younger, more talented prospect than Smith, and found my Eriksson type player through free agency.



    Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but what about another scenario.

    I'll start my ramble re the hi-lited above.  Hamilton.

    Not sure what Hamiltons cap hit is...but I think it's substantial due to easy bonus thresholds.  Regardless, when mentioning his name..., everything said, inferred, hoped for......is all based on the hype surrounding a top 10 pick.  So far, Hamilton has been anything but a "home run' imo.  His "real' contribution,  could easily be replaced for very little money.  The guy drafted in the back of round 2....whose done exactly what Hamilton has....hardly ever gets mentioned to this point.(not saying he won't be great, but he's been easily replaceable to this point)

    Many of these high draft picks are like UFA's and deadline aquisitions.  Too damn much money, and too much bother.

    And I don't think most of these young hot dogs are capable of doing the type of things that 3rd liners are meant to do.  Be a low risk 40 second investment.  Lots of guys out there for around 2.5 mil and less, that will give a team better value.

    I'm almost thinking the other way.  If I'm Washington, I'm pretty much convinced, Ovi is worth more to me as a bargaining chip...than he is a player, and that's not a knock against a guy I usually knock.  I'll say the same about Crosby.  I think it's a slam dunk, that Pittsburgh could improve their team, by trading him.

    And Edmonton.  I think they could have got much more on draft day for 'any' of these 'can't miss' disappointments they're currently employing, and they'd be much further along in the rebuilding had they dealt them.  Just imagine the haul Edmonton could have harvested, had they put the word out, that Hall was available(see Lindross).  I don't think "youngness" has anything to do with it.  You've got to keep replenishing, but putting too much emphasis on that, and in youth in general, is a mistake imo. 

    People bash Paille.  I think he's great where he's pigeon holed.  But he is a former 1st rounder who was absolute trouble, until the industry actually figured out where he really fit. 

    That wasn't necessarily his fault.  He's a gamer.  He gives it.  He just doesn't have the hands, or the IQ it takes to dominate at the mens level.  The team that drafts him beats their head against the wall, wastes resources then gives up.  Not because he can't play at the NHL level, but because he's a disappointemnt.  A first rounder who didn't end up being the second coming.  The Bruins swoop in and get great value, with no headache.  They weren't blinded by the hype that always comes with these guys.

    With these high picks, teams are deluded into feeling they have something special.  Many 1st round picks aren't, and most of those that are, are hopelessly over valued.

    IMO, all things being equal...I want lots of "s'perience" sprinkled with a bit of youthful exuberance.

    Winning today is all about value.  There are multiple ways to get players you may covet, but it all really comes down to how much they need to be paid.   Placing anything above that reality, ups the chances it could be a poor deal.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    Maybe they had to trade him maybe not

     

    But they absolutely didn't get enough. He wasn't shopped properly

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's comment:

    What a funny question, Seguin will be the best NHL PLAYER FOR THE NEXT 10 years , worst B's trade ever ...PC should be fired for giving away Johnny Rocket and trading a player like Tyler ...Charlie Jacobs will do the job and fire PC before the ned of March ....

     Stanley Cup to the BRUINS in 2011 & 3 more Cups by 2020 (if I become GM)



    You going to fire Charlie Jacobs if he doesn't terminate PC?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to skater68's comment:

    Maybe they had to trade him maybe not

     

    But they absolutely didn't get enough. He wasn't shopped properly

     



    You have no idea if that's the case.  I said above that I would have liked a player like Drouin.  Rumor has it that the Bruins offered Seguin for TB's pick and were rejected.  If that's the case, Seguin's value wasn't that high, or at least as high as it probably should have been.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kitchener. Show kitchener's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    This one never seems to die does it simple answer no but time to move on.

     
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