Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

     

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

    no. not even close. 

     

     

     

     

     



    Elaborate please. Who was a better fit and available to be had? Erickson is a lock for 25+ goals and 60+ points and he's missed 3 games in 5 years. Seguin sleeps in more than that. Morrow is a fine prospect and the other 2 players have NHL experience at a young age. People yesterday were happy to just give Peverley away so this deal was essentially 4 for 1. Bruins made out fine in my opinion and I'm on the record against trading Seguin to begin with. Gotta give to get.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't want the guy to be traded. For anyone. I saw seguin adjust quite a bit over his three years here. You say that Eriksson is a lock for 25+. Seguin isn't? 29, and a pro rated 27 in the last two years (the only two years he's really played). He'll score 35 next year, and he would have with the bruins. If this is really a "we want to win now" move why are we taking prospects back. Unless we're wheeling those for another RW or signing a big name, this is a bad move for the future, and for the present. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not trying to badger you but you're only telling me what we shouldn't have got for Seguin. I'm interested in knowing what or who you legitimately think he was worth and if said players were available. Look, i like Seguin and supported him every step of the way but he hasn't proven he's in Eriksson's league yet. Loui has been rock steady for the last 5 years. Seguin has shown flashes of brilliance but a lack of consistency. 

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    what it really comes down to is i didn't want the kid traded. if he had to be traded Evander Kane would have been a player I'd like coming the other way. bobby ryan maybe.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry it took me so long to get that. I see your point and don't disagree. I honestly would prefer we kept Seguin also because I really like his upside. That said, I'm still not upset with the return. I like Eriksson's game a lot and i guarantee other fans will too. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    thrilled to have eriksson on the team. However if the bruins really wanted him i would have much prefer they traded some of their high end prospects, along with peverley for him rather than giving up a guy like seguin. I would have much prefered offer Spooner, Peverley, Krug, and a first for Eriksson 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    No.  They got good talent back, but when trading Seguin you should get an "elite prospect" or pick back, which Chiarelli said he wanted. If one of the prospects excels, then the Bruins may know something the rest of us don't.  But baring that, Seguin is the kind of player that could bring you much more than the Bruins received.




    Why should Seguin return an elite prospect?  He's not elite.  Not even close. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    Is this really necessary:

     

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:


    thrilled to have eriksson on the team. However if the bruins really wanted him i would have much prefer they traded some of their high end prospects, along with peverley for him rather than giving up a guy like seguin. I would have much prefered offer Spooner, Peverley, Krug, and a first for Eriksson 



    Spooner:  Has proved nothing.

    Peverley:  El Bust-o last year, very average at best

    Krug:  Four goals in five games, then spent the rest of the playoffs trying not to get hit

    First round:  Very late first round

    for

    A really good player

    -

    Put down your xbox controller.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Is this really necessary:

     

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:




    hahaha...thanks for this!!!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?


    NAS this is for you:

    what are the Panthers targeting? Is there any news locally....

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:


    NAS this is for you:

    what are the Panthers targeting? Is there any news locally....

     




    The only two things that I know are that Weiss is gone and Horton isn't coming.  I've developed a pretty good relationship with someone pretty damn high up in the organization.  I generally blow him up with my fantastic "Tell Tallon to do this:" emails.  Once in a while I get a tidbit about future plans.  In regards to me admonishing the idea of Horton coming back, the response was "Don't worry".  That says it all to me.

    They bought out Kuba, but did it outside of the compliance, so his money still counts against the cap.  That tells me it's going to be another long season for real Panthers fans.  Management seems to think they have good players from the recent drafts that will bring on some real success. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:


    They bought out Kuba, but did it outside of the compliance, so his money still counts against the cap.  That tells me it's going to be another long season for real Panthers fans.  Management seems to think they have good players from the recent drafts that will bring on some real success. 




    Thanks my man...appreciate the candor.

    Buying out Kuba was prudent...something to be considered for sure.

    They do have the youth to move forward......but I do not anticipate any big UFA bid for them.

    Will you be going to some/or many of their games this upcoming season? Will Matthias be re-signed? Goaltending?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    Buying out Kuba was prudent...something to be considered for sure.

    They do have the youth to move forward......but I do not anticipate any big UFA bid for them.

    Will you be going to some/or many of their games this upcoming season? Will Matthias be re-signed? Goaltending?



    I'll be floored if they pick up any UFAs.

    Yes, I'll be going to most games.  I'm moving down there permanently soon.   I got my season tickets last week.  Club seats with free parking:  $770!  What a joke.

    I expect Mattias to be back.  He and Versteeg are the only guys with real potential to be better than okay. 

    The team is hitching it's wagon to Markstrom.  He was Swiss Cheese last season, but the defense was patchwork at best.  Gudbranson was injured, Kulikov was injured.  Jovo barely played. 

    Here's how bad Tallon is:

    Keaton Ellerby was a first round pick.

    He was traded to LA for a fifth round pick.

    That fifth round pick went to Buffalo for TJ Brennan.  Brennan played well.

    Brennan was just traded to Nashville for BOBBY BUTLER.

    Where did Nashville get Butler?  Waiver wire from NJ three months ago.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    Just got off the phone with a freind who is a Dallas Stars season ticket holder, one who actually watches the games while he's there. He says we are going to love Eriksson, his game is a perfect fit for Juliens system.

    He says he excited, but skeptical about Seguin. Never saw this trade coming.




     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    NAS my point was if this is a trade the future for now move, then dig a little bit deeper and trade prospects, not a guy that would probably lead your team in goals. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    Just got off the phone with a freind who is a Dallas Stars season ticket holder, one who actually watches the games while he's there. He says we are going to love Eriksson, his game is a perfect fit for Juliens system.

    He says he excited, but skeptical about Seguin. Never saw this trade coming.






    I'm believing everything I'm hearing about Ericksson.  If anything it appears he worked largely in anonymity down there.  Is your friend skeptical in the sense Seguin will not live up to the expectations of him for the Bruins to trade him, kel? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hanrahan1. Show Hanrahan1's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

     

     

     

    No.  They got good talent back, but when trading Seguin you should get an "elite prospect" or pick back, which Chiarelli said he wanted. If one of the prospects excels, then the Bruins may know something the rest of us don't.  But baring that, Seguin is the kind of player that could bring you much more than the Bruins received.

     

     




    Why should Seguin return an elite prospect?  He's not elite.  Not even close. 

     

     

     



     

     

    Absolutely. Imagine paying $4.5 M for that next year. Does anyone really believe that Seguin will embrace his hockey professionalism? With that sort of money and a guaranteed $29.5M coming in the following 5 years where's the motivation to change? I'm sure PC is breathing easier now.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:



    I'll be floored if they pick up any UFAs.

    Yes, I'll be going to most games.  I'm moving down there permanently soon.   I got my season tickets last week.  Club seats with free parking:  $770!  What a joke.

    I expect Mattias to be back.  He and Versteeg are the only guys with real potential to be better than okay. 

    The team is hitching it's wagon to Markstrom.  He was Swiss Cheese last season, but the defense was patchwork at best.  Gudbranson was injured, Kulikov was injured.  Jovo barely played. 

    Here's how bad Tallon is:

    Keaton Ellerby was a first round pick.

    He was traded to LA for a fifth round pick.

    That fifth round pick went to Buffalo for TJ Brennan.  Brennan played well.

    Brennan was just traded to Nashville for BOBBY BUTLER.

    Where did Nashville get Butler?  Waiver wire from NJ three months ago.

     

    Butler..??? hah

    Thanks for the info......infinitially more valuable than all the bulllshi*t rumours!!

    I am hoping Matthias and Markstrom keep progressing as I see them as the cornerstones of that franchises' success!

    Keep us posted my friend.

    Happy 4rth!!!

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from lordy4. Show lordy4's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    I'm a big Seguin fan, but this trade isn't as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. Will Seguin tear it up in Dallas? Probably. However, we got a lot in return. Eriksson is an all-star winger who is a good scorer & is good defensively. He is an underrated player because he was playing for the Stars. He will fit in nicely on the top line. The key to this deal is how the kids turn out. Craig Button thinks Smith will score 20-25 goals a season in the NHL. Many project Morrow has a #2 defenseman. If that happens, this is a trade that will work out for both teams.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    I would have much prefered offer Spooner, Peverley, Krug, and a first for Eriksson 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Keep Seguin ........bring in Eriksson..........sign Rask. 

    That's a lot of money with the cap going down.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to lordy4's comment:

    I'm a big Seguin fan, but this trade isn't as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. Will Seguin tear it up in Dallas? Probably. However, we got a lot in return. Eriksson is an all-star winger who is a good scorer & is good defensively. He is an underrated player because he was playing for the Stars. He will fit in nicely on the top line. The key to this deal is how the kids turn out. Craig Button thinks Smith will score 20-25 goals a season in the NHL. Many project Morrow has a #2 defenseman. If that happens, this is a trade that will work out for both teams.



         The reason why I started this thread is that I'm not familiar with the current NHL players. I don't follow hockey anywhere near as closely as I did, in the 70s and 80s. So...I was very interested in hearing from Bruins fans who follow the B's as closely as I once did, to get their opinions.

         My main concern is that a center, defenceman, and a goalie are far more valuable commodities, than a winger. Decent wingers are more easier to find. That said, the B's need to add some scoring...while not reducing their strong defensive style of play. Erikkson sounds like a solid, two-way player. 

         To me, this trade was about creating cap space...getting rid of a headache off the ice who, though young and talented, was underachieving...and Joe Morrow. Solid defencemen with offensive skills are as valuable to a hockey team as a good defensive catcher who can also hit is, in baseball. Anything that the Pats get out of wingers Smith and Fraser is gravy.  

         I appreciate the comments and informed opinions from y'all.  It's been my experience that knowledgable fans know more about the abilities of players and teams, than the local so-called  "experts", who cover the sport.     
     

     

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to jmwalters' comment:

    In response to jerrynewyork's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    at this point in their careers Eriksson is the better player. if Sequin becomes the player the experts think he is then the players the B's got in the trade will determine if they got enough. well,that's what i think anyway.


    "the world is full of crashing bores"-Morrissey




    Very true my man.

     

    Next season will be very intersting to see how this pans out.

    In TO (RHO may be able to back em up here) they are crowing about how it is now definitive proof the Kessel trade was a complete success for the Buds. Very annoying.

    [/QUOTE]


    It's stupid.  The deal was never just Kessel for Seguin, and the Leafs have one more year of Kessel before they have to re-sign him.  Think he likes it in Toronto?  Maybe he and Horton can play together in Columbus. 

    But even if it was Seguin for Kessel, it's now Kessel for Eriksson (2 years older, outscored Kessel the year of the Bos-Tor trade, better all-around player) Morrow, Smith and Fraser plus cap room.  The Kessel deal also meant the Bruins could keep Krejci.  So...yeah...I'm happy for them and their need to feel better about the fact they floundered in the wilderness for four more years because they dealt away a #2 overall and a #9 overall to go with the franchise goalie they sent to Boston.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't want the guy to be traded. For anyone. I saw seguin adjust quite a bit over his three years here. You say that Eriksson is a lock for 25+. Seguin isn't? 29, and a pro rated 27 in the last two years (the only two years he's really played). He'll score 35 next year, and he would have with the bruins. If this is really a "we want to win now" move why are we taking prospects back. Unless we're wheeling those for another RW or signing a big name, this is a bad move for the future, and for the present. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not trying to badger you but you're only telling me what we shouldn't have got for Seguin. I'm interested in knowing what or who you legitimately think he was worth and if said players were available. Look, i like Seguin and supported him every step of the way but he hasn't proven he's in Eriksson's league yet. Loui has been rock steady for the last 5 years. Seguin has shown flashes of brilliance but a lack of consistency. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    what it really comes down to is i didn't want the kid traded. if he had to be traded Evander Kane would have been a player I'd like coming the other way. bobby ryan maybe.

     

     

     

     


    [/QUOTE]

    thrilled to have eriksson on the team. However if the bruins really wanted him i would have much prefer they traded some of their high end prospects, along with peverley for him rather than giving up a guy like seguin. I would have much prefered offer Spooner, Peverley, Krug, and a first for Eriksson 

     

     

    (RESPONSE)

    Several glaring holes in that scenario.  First is the salary cap, which in itself makes this virtually impossible, then there's the future you mentioned earlier..  Perhaps the biggest flaw is the suggestion Dallas would've agreed to those terms. 

    When thinking this is a poor deal, all one needs to ask is this.  Is 9 million for Seguin and Peverly money well spent?  Wouldn't you sooner have Crosby plus enough left over to almost buy another grinder?  That's what 9 mil is buying these days.

    On a seperate note, there seems to be an overwhelming fascination with first round draft picks on this site.  That process is a crap shoot.  The Bruins are a really good hockey team and have virtually zero top picks.  That ain't rare either.  The marquee Jrs command a ton of patience, and a ton of money before they're proven, just because of the hoopla.

    Today, talent is only part of the equation.  Teams can't afford to pre-pay for potential.  Value is the only thing that matters.  Paille is a high first rounder.  The B's got him for what he's worth, when he became worth it.  That probably wouldn't have happenned had they drafted him.

    The more I think about this deal...the more it's discussed, the more I like it.  Seguin will have his hi-lite moments(same as Kessel, Samsonov, Denis Savard, Andre Savard, Nillson, and a boatload of danglers who've come before), but I just can't see him ever being a real superstar.  He just doesn't have the hockey IQ of an elite player.  He doesn't fit the Bruin mold.  Think of the upside all we want, but best case scenario is just getting moneys worth.  1 more season mirroring last, and Seguin is absolutely impossible to unload, hog-tieing the B's long term.  Just my opinion.

    Prudent move. 

     



     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    When thinking this is a poor deal, all one needs to ask is this.  Is 9 million for Seguin and Peverly money well spent?  Wouldn't you sooner have Crosby plus enough left over to almost buy another grinder?  That's what 9 mil is buying these days.

    RESPONSE: Good point.

    On a seperate note, there seems to be an overwhelming fascination with first round draft picks on this site.  That process is a crap shoot.  The Bruins are a really good hockey team and have virtually zero top picks.  That ain't rare either.  The marquee Jrs command a ton of patience, and a ton of money before they're proven, just because of the hoopla.

    RESPONSE:When it comes to building teams in any sport, I'm a great believer in building through the draft...especially in this era of the salary cap. Still, in hockey, like in baseball, it seems to be harder to project top prospects, than in football or basketball.

    The more I think about this deal...the more it's discussed, the more I like it.  Seguin will have his hi-lite moments(same as Kessel, Samsonov, Denis Savard, Andre Savard, Nillson, and a boatload of danglers who've come before), but I just can't see him ever being a real superstar.  He just doesn't have the hockey IQ of an elite player.  He doesn't fit the Bruin mold.  Think of the upside all we want, but best case scenario is just getting moneys worth.  1 more season mirroring last, and Seguin is absolutely impossible to unload, hog-tieing the B's long term.  Prudent move. 

    RESPONSE: Not sure about Seguin lacking the "hockey IQ". Based on what I've read on him, he seems to lack maturity, and the motivational drive to fulfill his great potential. Still, he's only 21. Not many players are "mature" at that age. That said, you made an excellent point where you stated, "one more season mirroring last, andSeguin is absolutely impossible to unload, hog-tieing the B's long term."  



    RESPONSE: Good post, Steve. Thanks.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

         Here is a report on what they think of the trade in Dallas...and the prospects which the Bruins received in the deal: http://starsblog.dallasnews.com/2013/07/at-what-cost-so-what-did-the-stars-give-up-to-get-tyler-seguin-and-rich-peverley.html/

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    I would have much prefered offer Spooner, Peverley, Krug, and a first for Eriksson 

     



    Keep Seguin ........bring in Eriksson..........sign Rask. 

    That's a lot of money with the cap going down.

    [/QUOTE]

    you only take in 1 million in that move for eriksson. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    When thinking this is a poor deal, all one needs to ask is this.  Is 9 million for Seguin and Peverly money well spent?  Wouldn't you sooner have Crosby plus enough left over to almost buy another grinder?  That's what 9 mil is buying these days.

    RESPONSE: Good point.

    On a seperate note, there seems to be an overwhelming fascination with first round draft picks on this site.  That process is a crap shoot.  The Bruins are a really good hockey team and have virtually zero top picks.  That ain't rare either.  The marquee Jrs command a ton of patience, and a ton of money before they're proven, just because of the hoopla.

    RESPONSE:When it comes to building teams in any sport, I'm a great believer in building through the draft...especially in this era of the salary cap. Still, in hockey, like in baseball, it seems to be harder to project top prospects, than in football or basketball.

    The more I think about this deal...the more it's discussed, the more I like it.  Seguin will have his hi-lite moments(same as Kessel, Samsonov, Denis Savard, Andre Savard, Nillson, and a boatload of danglers who've come before), but I just can't see him ever being a real superstar.  He just doesn't have the hockey IQ of an elite player.  He doesn't fit the Bruin mold.  Think of the upside all we want, but best case scenario is just getting moneys worth.  1 more season mirroring last, and Seguin is absolutely impossible to unload, hog-tieing the B's long term.  Prudent move. 

    RESPONSE: Not sure about Seguin lacking the "hockey IQ". Based on what I've read on him, he seems to lack maturity, and the motivational drive to fulfill his great potential. Still, he's only 21. Not many players are "mature" at that age. That said, you made an excellent point where you stated, "one more season mirroring last, andSeguin is absolutely impossible to unload, hog-tieing the B's long term."  

     



    RESPONSE: Good post, Steve. Thanks.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Couple things.  Building from youth is absolutely important, I don't disagree.  Drafting is big, assessing young talent can't be over emphasized.  I'm just talking about putting too many resouces into garnering a draft pick in the 3 to 10 range even in a good year.

    The IQ thing can be confusing to some.  Seguin has some exceptional natural talents.  Shot, speed, stick-handling.  Those don't automatically translate into a lucrative NHL career.  The maturation process will make him better in many ways, but it will in no way impact that IQ quotient.  Being able to fathom what "will' happen on the ice, how "to' maximise your playing partners strengths....those intangibles can't be taught.  Gretzky wasn't arguably the best ever because he mastered every skill to perfection, it was his ability to see what others couldn't, coupled with high skill levels.  The ability to channel energy as opposed to wasting it,... literally dozens of intangibles.

    Seguin had some knocks in Jrs about his game, then it appearred he overcame them.  The Bruins have had a complete change of heart on this kids overall potential.  A complete 180 in the last year.  I don't think they did that because of his maturation development.  They didn't do it because of the cap.  I'm of the belief they traded Seguin because they've given up on the idea he'll become elite.  They can deal with maturity if neccessary, but they can't teach those other senses that are paramount to eliteness. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    The real question is "Was Tyler Seguin ever going to play center for the Bruins?".  The answer is no.  With that the Bruins got a Top 6 forward in return plus a first round prospect plus 2 other depth forwards.  Most importantly, the Bs got cap room in the deal which could result in another Top 6 forward or give them more flexibility to retain Rask, Berg, and/or Horton.  IMHO all comparisons about this deal in the future will be moot since Seguin will probably be playing center in a completely different system.    Seguin will most likely put up more points in Dallas but it may be because he is given more freedom to do things that would not be allowed in the Bruins system.    I'm okay with this as long as the Bruins continue to be one of the best teams in the NHL.

    Luc Dufour was as tough as Nails.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Did the B's Get Enough for Seguin?

    Not as bad as the Thorton trade but close

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share