Do shots against per game matter?

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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Despite the the constant nitpicking by   many on this board  of individual players' skill sets and their production (because of the intense scrutiny with which many of us watch each and every game), I could not have expected the Bruins team to have played any better to this point. They are:  - 1st in the league in goals allowed per game  - 6th (tied) in goals for per game  - 3rd in goal differential per game (only VAN and PHI are better) One stat disturbs me though - Tim Thomas is facing the MOST shots per game in the NHL and the B's, as a team, are third worst in shots allowed in the NHL. I wouldn't have thought TT would have been anywhere close to the top. Given that the B's allow the fewest goals per game, I would have thought that shots against per game would have reflected a much more "team concept" D, given the commitment to backchecking demanded by CJ and company shift after shift, game in and game out. Do you think this a real worry going forward due to the accumulation of rubber seen? Do elite goaltenders tend thrive with more "in-game" work?
    Posted by anacanapana[/QUOTE]
    Shots on goal mean nothing compared to scoring chances.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Do shots against per game matter? : Shots on goal mean nothing compared to scoring chances.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    So you think that even though TT faces the most shots per game in the NHL night after night, that stat means "nothing"?

    Then why do we constantly hear from coaches and players, "... just keep putting the puck on net and good things will happen."

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Savvvy. Show Savvvy's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    They should matter. People can say they are from low-scoring chance areas as many times as you want (Claudes System), but in fact thats not always the case.

    You have got to wonder how or if Claude plans to aderess this. Thomas is thriving under the pressure, but the goal right now should be to start limiting the shots against. Claude will need to make some tweeks to the system to limit this. One thing I would suggest is allow the d to pinch the fowards off at the boards, instead of just letting them skate around and have plenty of time to make the pass or take the shot. I see this as one of the bigger flaws in CJ's system. They don't want to be the team giving up the most shots per game during the playoffs.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : So you think that even though TT faces the most shots per game in the NHL night after night, that stat means "nothing"? Then why do we constantly hear from coaches and players, "... just keep putting the puck on net and good things will happen."
    Posted by anacanapana[/QUOTE]
    That's exactly what I think.This subject has been beaten to death on this forum in a post entitled"shots on goal overrated"and "shots on goal revisited".Boston's D will allow the opposition to shoot from the outside all night if they want to.As long as they keep the front of the net cleaned up and rebounds to a minimum it doesn't really matter.The numbers speak for themselves.Even Rask,with a losing record,has one of the leagues top save percentages.There's a reasonBoston stays at the top of the NHL's defensive stats regardless of who is in goal(last year for instance).The Wild were outshot in every one of their first 20 victories.What's up with that?
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    The bruins force alot of low percentage shots. Shots taken from outside the circles, shots straight across the goaline from the corner etc....

    When this bites them in the rear is when someone blows a coverage infront and the other team gets a tap in.

    IMO the team could limit the shots against by having the D stand up at their own blue line more often. This would also create more odd man rushes for the offense when the D succedes. The problem is that if they did start doing this they may actually give up more scoring chances when the D makes a mistake than they currently do.

    Its a tough decision but my Hockey MO has always been to step up and take the man, but Clodes system seems to work for them. That is according to the stats you posted.

     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : That's exactly what I think.This subject has been beaten to death on this forum in a post entitled"shots on goal overrated"and "shots on goal revisited".Boston's D will allow the opposition to shoot from the outside all night if they want to.As long as they keep the front of the net cleaned up and rebounds to a minimum it doesn't really matter.The numbers speak for themselves.Even Rask,with a losing record,has one of the leagues top save percentages.There's a reasonBoston stays at the top of the NHL's defensive stats regardless of who is in goal(last year for instance).The Wild were outshot in every one of their first 20 victories.What's up with that?
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    This IS a defensive stat! And they're the worst in the NHL when TT plays.

    Look, there's no question that CJ's system forces play to the boards and allows shots from there. But there are other good defensive teams in the NHL that play this way and also allow many fewer total shots on goal per game

    I believe that the B's need to reduce this number significantly in order to win the Cup this year. I'll be hoping for this progress in the next 32 games.

     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : This IS a defensive stat! And they're the worst in the NHL when TT plays. Look, there's no question that CJ's system forces play to the boards and allows shots from there. But there are other good defensive teams in the NHL that play this way and also allow many fewer total shots on goal  per game .  I believe that the B's need to reduce this number significantly in order to win the Cup this year. I'll be hoping for this progress in the next 32 games.
    Posted by anacanapana[/QUOTE]
    GAA is the sole IMPORTANT defensive stat.As I said,weren't they also good defensively last year without TT in goal?Shot quality means far more than shot quantity.I have to wonder why you asked a question and now want to argue people's opinions.Let's just disagree.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from anacanapana. Show anacanapana's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : GAA is the sole IMPORTANT defensive stat.As I said,weren't they also good defensively last year without TT in goal?Shot quality means far more than shot quantity.I have to wonder why you asked a question and now want to argue people's opinions.Let's just disagree.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    I asked a question in order to get others' opinions. It doesn't preclude me having an opinion of my own. Sure - we'll just disagree about this one. 

    And you might want to ask yourself this - In a discussion, do you always think people who disagree with you are "arguing" with you?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : I asked a question in order to get others' opinions. It doesn't preclude me having an opinion of my own.  Sure - we'll just disagree about this one.  And you might want to ask yourself this - In a discussion, do you always think people who disagree with you are "arguing" with you?
    Posted by anacanapana[/QUOTE]
    I believe that's what forms the basis of a debate.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Savvvy. Show Savvvy's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]The bruins force alot of low percentage shots. Shots taken from outside the circles, shots straight across the goaline from the corner etc.... When this bites them in the rear is when someone blows a coverage infront and the other team gets a tap in. IMO the team could limit the shots against by having the D stand up at their own blue line more often. This would also create more odd man rushes for the offense when the D succedes. The problem is that if they did start doing this they may actually give up more scoring chances when the D makes a mistake than they currently do. Its a tough decision but my Hockey MO has always been to step up and take the man, but Clodes system seems to work for them. That is according to the stats you posted.
    Posted by I-Like-Hockey[/QUOTE]

    The d don't even need to stand up at there own blue line. Right now the D are giving the attacking fowards too much time and space to make plays. It gives them too much time and space. All the D would need to do is ride the fowards off along the boards. It pains me to see them let the little guys come streaking down into the corners and around the net with as much time as they want without any body contact.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : The d don't even need to stand up at there own blue line. Right now the D are giving the attacking fowards too much time and space to make plays. It gives them too much time and space. All the D would need to do is ride the fowards off along the boards. It pains me to see them let the little guys come streaking down into the corners and around the net with as much time as they want without any body contact.
    Posted by Savvvy[/QUOTE]
    If our D is so soft,why aren't the opponents scoring more(don't say it's just TT as it's been going on for 3 years now)?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Savvvy. Show Savvvy's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : If our D is so soft,why aren't the opponents scoring more(don't say it's just TT as it's been going on for 3 years now)?
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    I am not saying they are soft. I was just suggesting a minor tweak to Claudes system could allow less shots on net. I like are D, I think they are one of the worst on paper, but one of the better Dmen in game.

    We do have good goltending though. It is a big part of the reason more of the shots are not going in. You can't just discount it because it suits your needs.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Dez,
    shots on goal is not soley a wasteless stat.. GAA is a bad mark for a goalie as well..

    Shots on goal like or not, also indicate possession.. If you keep the team out of the zone, away from the puck there not shooting a lot of pucks..

    The bruins defense is indeed soft, its a "protect defense" allows shots from outside while generating fewer scoring chances, system works great when the bruins are controlling and clearing rebounds.. but giving up 35 shots is still a lot, and when there are break downs, there not good.

    Typically I would rate goalies first on SVS%.. Thomas faces the most shots, but his Scoring chances against are probably typical with the rest of the league, anyone who watches the bruins enough knows they have break downs in nearly every game and at that point big saves are required..

    And Dez, before you knock thomas, he's had 2 of the highest svs% all time in this season, and his vezina season, facing the most shots, maybe he should get some credit..
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Shots on goal lead to goals, some via tap in, some deflection and some like the fluke variety.  Yes we give up more shots than most, for several reasons.

    1-we are coasting in some games and being outplayed
    2-we have a lead and Cj has put his turtle head in his shell and is playing prevent, which means prevent your own team from skating with the puck, just dump it back to them
    3-some games we actually trade chance for chance and there are shots both ways
    4-in giving up outside shots which seems to be the idea, our collapsing in on the goalie leads to mulitple in tight chances much like last night where3-4 rapid saves are required by TT or a goal is scored

    Savvy much like you, I hate this allowing entry and backing off, It irks me to no end that right at the blue line our D backs off a sure hit and allows the entry to be gained, same as on 2-1s, backing right in on goalie, they need to take at least 1 player or passing lane and it is not happening, it is luck when we stop the play without giving up an awesome scoring chance.  This is especially bad allowing some top players to gain entry to dangle the puck around. I realize when there is too much space you have to allow the entry but, more often or not the boom could have been lowered.

    Do shots per game matter

    Yer freakin right they do, ask Marty Brodeur, if he would sooner 20 or 35 shots per game.  It would be fine if all shots the B`s give up were perimeter, but these shots always lead to good quality shots against the B`s.

    The funny thing is the B`s try to give the opposition outside perimeter shots, and that is exactly what they premise their PP and regular play on.  They do a lot of cycling etc and back to the point, but it is only when they get net presence that they have success.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : I am not saying they are soft. I was just suggesting a minor tweak to Claudes system could allow less shots on net. I like are D, I think they are one of the worst on paper, but one of the better Dmen in game. We do have good goltending though. It is a big part of the reason more of the shots are not going in. You can't just discount it because it suits your needs.
    Posted by Savvvy[/QUOTE]
    And what might those "needs" be?Perhaps recognizing that it's a TEAM game with all players being important in the overall scheme of things.I get a kick out of you new posters coming on here telling me about what I think in regards to the Bruins.What led you to believe I've ever doubted Bostons' goaltending?Was it me pointing out they've been great for 3 years now or was something else I said?Please enlighten me as I grow tired of being ignorant.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Dez, shots on goal is not soley a wasteless stat.. GAA is a bad mark for a goalie as well.. Shots on goal like or not, also indicate possession.. If you keep the team out of the zone, away from the puck there not shooting a lot of pucks.. The bruins defense is indeed soft, its a "protect defense" allows shots from outside while generating fewer scoring chances, system works great when the bruins are controlling and clearing rebounds.. but giving up 35 shots is still a lot, and when there are break downs, there not good. Typically I would rate goalies first on SVS%.. Thomas faces the most shots, but his Scoring chances against are probably typical with the rest of the league, anyone who watches the bruins enough knows they have break downs in nearly every game and at that point big saves are required.. And Dez, before you knock thomas, he's had 2 of the highest svs% all time in this season, and his vezina season, facing the most shots, maybe he should get some credit..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    Find where I'm knocking him before the accusations fly.....and which team doesn't have a breakdown or two every game?BTW don't forget your save percentage remark the next time you're trashing Rask.I also saw Florida had 1 scoring opportunity through 2 periods last night(on 19 shots).
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Shots on goal lead to goals, some via tap in, some deflection and some like the fluke variety.  Yes we give up more shots than most, for several reasons. 1-we are coasting in some games and being outplayed 2-we have a lead and Cj has put his turtle head in his shell and is playing prevent, which means prevent your own team from skating with the puck, just dump it back to them 3-some games we actually trade chance for chance and there are shots both ways 4-in giving up outside shots which seems to be the idea, our collapsing in on the goalie leads to mulitple in tight chances much like last night where3-4 rapid saves are required by TT or a goal is scored Savvy much like you, I hate this allowing entry and backing off, It irks me to no end that right at the blue line our D backs off a sure hit and allows the entry to be gained, same as on 2-1s, backing right in on goalie, they need to take at least 1 player or passing lane and it is not happening, it is luck when we stop the play without giving up an awesome scoring chance.  This is especially bad allowing some top players to gain entry to dangle the puck around. I realize when there is too much space you have to allow the entry but, more often or not the boom could have been lowered. Do shots per game matter Yer freakin right they do, ask Marty Brodeur, if he would sooner 20 or 35 shots per game.  It would be fine if all shots the B`s give up were perimeter, but these shots always lead to good quality shots against the B`s. The funny thing is the B`s try to give the opposition outside perimeter shots, and that is exactly what they premise their PP and regular play on.  They do a lot of cycling etc and back to the point, but it is only when they get net presence that they have success.
    Posted by No4BobbyOrr-GOAT[/QUOTE]
    Brodeur has stated many times that he prefers to stay busier rather than face fewer shots.I guess we disagree  but the stats seem to back up the importance(or lack thereof) of shots on goal.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    I think another point to make is that Tim Thomas will use his glove a lot to grab high shots. If he saves it, it's a shot on goal. Other goalies don't do this as much from what I've seen. He also directs shots that could be heading to the apron to the corners more. This is an element of it as well but also the fact that the Bs will allow outside shots all day and Thomas is expected to save them if he sees them. That's why he was so pissed about the Allen goal last night, he saw it clean and Allen just beat him.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    No4.

    Good post, and another good point, to simplify things, is with out thomas in net how many wins does this team really have.. I found a stat the other day, they bruins now have points in 29 of 30 games thomas has played in when they scored 1 goal.. 4 of his 5 losses are via shut out..

    Rask is 4-10 and we all believe a capable goalie right? so if the team is so well, why does it take a vezina performance to win??
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]No4. Good post, and another good point, to simplify things, is with out thomas in net how many wins does this team really have.. I found a stat the other day, they bruins now have points in 29 of 30 games thomas has played in when they scored 1 goal.. 4 of his 5 losses are via shut out.. Rask is 4-10 and we all believe a capable goalie right? so if the team is so well, why does it take a vezina performance to win??
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    C'mon Roler.Is save percentage the most important stat or not?Don't argue both sides here just for the sake of putting TT on a pedestal.Kanes-donuts is enough of a TT stalker for 1 forum thank you very much.....
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Dez,
    how does that play both sides of the fence?  nothing I said their contradicts that Svs% is generally the best stat when looking at a goalies performance..

    Great goalies can post a 3.0GAA if they are facing 40 shots a game..

    You ever look at the scoring chances in most bruisn games? they tend to be even, so its not liek were giving up 35 shots, and yet winning the scoring chances battle..
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Every shot on goal has to be played by the goalie.  This keeps a goalie in the game and is good in the short term but in the long term it makes the goalie work more and become more likely to burn out.  This is one of the factors that is worrying me and making me question how much Thomas will have left for the playoffs.
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Dez, how does that play both sides of the fence?  nothing I said their contradicts that Svs% is generally the best stat when looking at a goalies performance.. Great goalies can post a 3.0GAA if they are facing 40 shots a game.. You ever look at the scoring chances in most bruisn games? they tend to be even, so its not liek were giving up 35 shots, and yet winning the scoring chances battle..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    Arguing both sides is saying we need a Vezina performance to win even though Rask also has one of the leagues' best save percentages.So it seems when it's TT doing it ,it's important but when Rask has a high percentage,it's treated like it's an abberation.
     
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    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : Arguing both sides is saying we need a Vezina performance to win even though Rask also has one of the leagues' best save percentages.So it seems when it's TT doing it ,it's important but when Rask has a high percentage,it's treated like it's an abberation.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]



    No its not, that is your interpetation..

    Rask has not had a vezina like season, he has a better then average Svs%, .921 over 25 points lower then thomas, and his record suffers because of it..that 100% supports my case..

    your trying to manipulate what i have said to suite your needs..
     
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    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : No its not, that is your interpetation.. Rask has not had a vezina like season, he has a better then average Svs%, .921 over 25 points lower then thomas, and his record suffers because of it..that 100% supports my case.. your trying to manipulate what i have said to suite your needs..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    2 1/2 goals every 100 shots....I'm not manipulating anything you've said.Everything we've both said is here for all to see so what's your point?
     

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