Do shots against per game matter?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    what is 2 1/2 goals per 100 shots? You dont make any sense, but way to try to make yourself intelligent..

    my point stands svs% is generally what i would look at first, thomas has a higher svs% then rask, he's been better. - thats true..

    GAA can be skewed by how good a team is since is based on 60 minutes, not shots faced, you can have a GAA of 2 and a lousy svs% that make a good goalie? no..


    Loungo had a mediocre if at best GAA with the NYI, and the Panthers, always had one of the highest SVS% in the NHL, though he didnt have the wins/losses to show for it, turns out hes a great goalie..

    SVS% is a direct reflection of the goalies work..
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Savvvy. Show Savvvy's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : And what might those "needs" be?Perhaps recognizing that it's a TEAM game with all players being important in the overall scheme of things.I get a kick out of you new posters coming on here telling me about what I think in regards to the Bruins.What led you to believe I've ever doubted Bostons' goaltending?Was it me pointing out they've been great for 3 years now or was something else I said?Please enlighten me as I grow tired of being ignorant.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    You wrote (don't say it's just TT as it's been going on for 3 years now)?  When in fact he has played a huge role in it. It is a Team game, but I am saying that the Team would do well to start finding ways to lower the shots on goal. Then I said pinching the foward off when they are skating down the boards would be a big help. Which currently isn't done under the Julien system.

    Allowing less shots is always a good thing. Regardles of how you feel about the stat being misleading.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    this argument has no answer...what if a goalie only faces 18 shots, but 10 are solid scoring chances?how is that compared to a goalie who has faced 40 shots, all from the outside-3 scoring chances????? i'm sure someone will post a "formula" to clear this up for me...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : You wrote (don't say it's just TT as it's been going on for 3 years now)?  When in fact he has played a huge role in it. It is a Team game, but I am saying that the Team would do well to start finding ways to lower the shots on goal. Then I said pinching the foward off when they are skating down the boards would be a big help. Which currently isn't done under the Julien system. Allowing less shots is always a good thing. Regardles of how you feel about the stat being misleading.
    Posted by Savvvy[/QUOTE]
    I won't argue that fewer shots would be better.I just don't think it's that important in the overall scheme of things.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    adbk,
    that works on a game by game basis, but over the course of the season there is usually a balance struck..

    The team is not giving up 40 shots and 3 scoring chances, if you think that your not watching the game..
    The bruins were equal in shots last night, scoring chances probably close, but the second half of the game florida had more.
    thomas played a better game..they won..

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]what is 2 1/2 goals per 100 shots? You dont make any sense, but way to try to make yourself intelligent.. my point stands svs% is generally what i would look at first, thomas has a higher svs% then rask, he's been better. - thats true.. GAA can be skewed by how good a team is since is based on 60 minutes, not shots faced, you can have a GAA of 2 and a lousy svs% that make a good goalie? no.. Loungo had a mediocre if at best GAA with the NYI, and the Panthers, always had one of the highest SVS% in the NHL, though he didnt have the wins/losses to show for it, turns out hes a great goalie.. SVS% is a direct reflection of the goalies work..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    25 points is 2 1/2 goals per 100 shots.Sorry if that makes me sound stupid.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : 25 points is 2 1/2 goals per 100 shots.Sorry if that makes me sound stupid.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]
    I believe I also said that a high save percentage GENERALLY leads to more victories.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter? : 25 points is 2 1/2 goals per 100 shots.Sorry if that makes me sound stupid.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    No,
    what point do you think that has to do with the arguement?
    2 1/2 goals per 100 shots..

    Thats about 3 games.. so 2 1/2 goals more over 3 games..
    thats a lot..
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Dez,
    you can discount the shots all you want (which in doing so makes rask season even worse.)

    Thomas is having the best season statistically in the history of the modern era. I am not going so say that makes him the greatest all time, but if he continues this play there is no doubt on the vezina, he has a shot at the hart, and will have produced the best season in NHL history..

    the fact that he has points in 29 of the 30 games that he has started that the bruins have scored in supports that..  Its being over looked, but if the bruins score 1 goal, he has gotten them to atleast overtime in all but 1 game..

    If the bruins gave up less shots, he would indeed give up less goals, if you want to compare goalies across the league, SVS% is where I would start, which was my point at the begining of this.. You keep arguing that with "points" that make no sense.. such as 2 1/2 more goals per 100 shots..

    meaning what?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]adbk, that works on a game by game basis, but over the course of the season there is usually a balance struck.. The team is not giving up 40 shots and 3 scoring chances, if you think that your not watching the game.. The bruins were equal in shots last night, scoring chances probably close, but the second half of the game florida had more. thomas played a better game..they won..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    I am not sure where to find the scoring chances stat but there is no way I believe Florida had anywhere near the scoring chances the Bruins did. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    I know this is simplifying the answer whereas some of you (and me at times) like to complicate matters.
    The pure number of shots does matter as out of them a percentage of them will be "scoring chances" and some will find the back of the net. If your goalie has an off moment or your D blows it, even an outside shot (not a true scoring chance) could result in a goal.
    The Bruins have chosen to allow shots and limit scoring chances. When they are on their game it works well.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Orr, I was at the game, I would argue they (florida)  had more at the end of the game, and were very close if not more overall.. Thomas made the better saves of the 2 guys in net, and faced more shots..

    I found 14 to 10 in favor of florida (unofficial) 7 to 3 in third.. I would call that pretty accurate..


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from goodnewsbears. Show goodnewsbears's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    i don't know if florida had more, but they had plenty. tt had to make some huge saves.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    The range in quality of a shot is just far too wide to lump them all together in a sv% stat and leave it at that.  It is a common strategy when behind to put more shots on net, take lower % shots that you otherwise might not take in the hope that you get a little lucky.  It is also common when ahead to be more patient and wait for higher scoring opportunities.

    I believe that in the NHL the team that shoots more wins around 45% of the time.  Note that the Islanders have been outshot in every Win this season.  If outshooting an opponent = outplaying an opponent then wouldnt the win% be much higher in those games? 

    Here is an interesting statistical analysis of shots and save%.  He shows how goalie save% is higher when the team is ahead, and does a great job speculating why.  Now we all know that Thomas' spends a lot of time with the lead, and that the B's are willing to let opponents shoot from the outside all night.  Could this have something to do with his outrageous save% this year?

    To me, shots against by themselves can either mean that a team has spent a lot of time with the lead, or just has poor defense.  You have to look at more than just the stat by itself though.  In the B's case, it is just an indication that we usually have the lead.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Eric,
    thomas spends a lot of time with the lead based on how he has played..The bruins score a goal and that is enough for him to believe he can win, when the team is down 0-1, with this team, who knows..

    and it was never stated its the only stat, the idea that it is meaningless though? or an overrated stat?

    The bruins were outshot last night, in the third period by a desperate team, that was not a game they controlled end to end, that was not a game where the panthers got desperates and just started taking shots, they were down, they controlled most of the 3rd for large periods of time the bruins were content to simply get the puck to the red line dump it and change..

    Had the bruins been able to hold the shots down in the 3rd, Thomas probably gets his shut out.

    Thomas is 23-5? leads the league in svs%, GAA, shut outs, tied for wins.. this post was started as a way to try to nulify one of his efforts.. he's been the best goalie in the league this year, so now the next way to try to nulify his stats is to say, well its scoring chances, any fan watching the game should know the bruins come out on the low end of "scoring chances" more often then not..

    not to mention scoring chances from paille still count as a scoring chance and they are as threatening a shot from the point with no traffic in front and time to get into position..

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Orr, I was at the game, I would argue they (florida)  had more at the end of the game, and were very close if not more overall.. Thomas made the better saves of the 2 guys in net, and faced more shots.. I found 14 to 10 in favor of florida (unofficial) 7 to 3 in third.. I would call that pretty accurate..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    This is why it is a useless stats because what I think is a scoring chance and what some else thinks is a scoring chance are completely different.  What is considered a scoring chance by the official in Boston is not what other officials call it.  It has been shown that some of these officials give out way more scoring chances than others.  So I have to say I am not surprised that at this point a Boston official would be padding and arbitrary stat to make it look like our goalie played better than he did.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Orr,
    Like i said being at the game, the bruins didn't play a better game then florida did, they were out played by far more then the "15-9" shot count in the 3rd..

    your correct in the what one official calls a scoring chance, verse another, but you really think they also padded florida stats, but not boston? you want to be that much of a homer and say they padded the stat to favor thomas, as opposed to padding it to favor the bruins..

    like it or not scoring chances favored florida, I agree with that, I think the bruins controlled the puck for large periods of time with out doing anything with it, they also over handled the puck at times in prime scoring locations and never generated a shot..

    the bruins deserved to win last nights game for 1 reason, thomas outplayed vokoun, other then that it was a closely played game that i would argue florida was better in, and the stats would support that.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Orr, Like i said being at the game, the bruins didn't play a better game then florida did, they were out played by far more then the "15-9" shot count in the 3rd.. your correct in the what one official calls a scoring chance, verse another, but you really think they also padded florida stats, but not boston? you want to be that much of a homer and say they padded the stat to favor thomas, as opposed to padding it to favor the bruins.. like it or not scoring chances favored florida, I agree with that, I think the bruins controlled the puck for large periods of time with out doing anything with it, they also over handled the puck at times in prime scoring locations and never generated a shot.. the bruins deserved to win last nights game for 1 reason, thomas outplayed vokoun, other then that it was a closely played game that i would argue florida was better in, and the stats would support that.
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    I found them online here http://www.litterboxcats.com/2011/1/27/1958723/by-the-numbers-panthers-vs-bruins-scoring-chances-1-26-2011. These are crap because according to that the Bergeron line only had one scoring chance in the second period.  There was a shift for that line in the second when each player had a scoring chance.  Jack and Brick comment on the shift and how not only were they cycling the puck they were creating scoring chances.  Notice the s on the end of chance it means they created more than one scoring chance on that shift alone.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Orr, the line created opportunities, and failed to pull the trigger, that was a reoccuring them of last nights game, marchand had some great chances that never amounted to a shot, do did horton, so did ryder..

    besides like i said, if the official is "to hard on the bruins" as your now stating, wouldnt that make them to hard on the panthers as well, I understand your feeling that there is an nhl conspiracy to make thomas look good..

    But honestly, if a guy scores more chances then average, he does it both ways, (similar to hits, another "arbitrary stat")  but they would still be consistant as to what they consider a chance..

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Let me simplify this, in a way most of you can get..

    Goalie plays 1 game, gives up 2 goals on 21 shots. 19 svs, and a win..

    .904 svs%, 1-0 win, and a gaa of 2.

    game 2 gives up 3 goals on 50 shots in the loss..

    .940 svs%, 0-1 loss, and a GAA of 3..

    which game did the goalie play better in?

    Is this really that hard of a concept...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Roler,

    Im not trying to nullify Thomas stats, I think he is top 5 if not the the best goalie in the league right now.  I'm just saying that shots against as a stat is not an indicator of how well a team plays.  I actually think it more often indicates, simply, that a team was playing with the lead, as I argued in my last post.

    What do you think of the Statistical Analysis of save% that I posted a link to in my last post?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Orr, the line created opportunities, and failed to pull the trigger, that was a reoccuring them of last nights game, marchand had some great chances that never amounted to a shot, do did horton, so did ryder.. besides like i said, if the official is "to hard on the bruins" as your now stating, wouldnt that make them to hard on the panthers as well, I understand your feeling that there is an nhl conspiracy to make thomas look good.. But honestly, if a guy scores more chances then average, he does it both ways, (similar to hits, another "arbitrary stat")  but they would still be consistant as to what they consider a chance..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    Where did I say half of what your try to say I said?  I said it is an arbitrary garbage stat that can be affected by who is keep it.  I also said it is not unheard for a person who lives in Boston to favor the Bruins.  I see the a few seconds click off a clock a lot more often when it is the home team in the lead.  If you want to live in a fantasy world and believe all officials are impartial you more than welcome to, myself I been around long enough to know better.

    You seem to be going a long way to defend a stat that according to Wikki: "there is no exact definition of a scoring chance".  If there is no exact definition how can we expect it to be kept accurately?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    In Response to Re: Do shots against per game matter?:
    [QUOTE]Let me simplify this, in a way most of you can get.. Goalie plays 1 game, gives up 2 goals on 21 shots. 19 svs, and a win.. .904 svs%, 1-0 win, and a gaa of 2. game 2 gives up 3 goals on 50 shots in the loss.. .940 svs%, 0-1 loss, and a GAA of 3.. which game did the goalie play better in? Is this really that hard of a concept...
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    I get what your saying Roler, and I agree that in your scenario the goalie played better in the 2nd game. 

    What I am saying is that when a team is behind it tends to throw a lot of low% shots on net, resulting in higher save%s for goalies who play often with the lead, and a lot of shots against for teams that play often with a lead, like the Bruins do.

    It was said (in the original post) that Thomas faces the most shots per game in the NHL and that the B's had the 3rd highest SA/G stat.  I'm just trying to argue that SA/G doesn't indicate what people think it does, in this case poor play on the B's part.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Eric,
    that is true, as the poster states cause you have to try to win, you open it up, I mean teams down by 1 who pull the goalie probably give up the ENG more often then they score, but its all about the win..

    Orr,
    you are arguing that the stats are cooked to favor thomas, so the florida scoring opportunities are skewed higher to make him look good, I asked why a scorer wouldnt load the bruins with more chances to make them look better as a team. You argued you don't think florida had more chances so i was making the point why would they skew it to favor florida (and thomas) then tip the scale the other way??

    I think if an official is skewing the stats, they will be out of a job before long since the league reviews all games.. but thats just me..

    So i stated before i found it that i thought florida had more chances, that makes me biased as well? 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Do shots against per game matter?

    Eric,
    let me take a shot at that again, I didnt read that a team that is behind takes a lot of low% shots, and in turn teams that are leading have a higer saves percentage.
    I read that as teams that are behind take more chances (toronto lives and dies by trading chances)..

    But my general statement in all of this, has been that svs% is typically the most honest stat.. its a direct relation of svs vs shots..

    GAA is a factor of goals over time, not really a judge of a goalies play..

    shut outs are always a good stat, if you have a 13 save shut out you were still on all game right?

    its not the only stat, obviously a goalie on a better defensive team will have better defensive stats.. but if your surrendering the most shots in the league, and your goalie has the highest SVS% of all time, are you really that good defensively? 

    plus like i said this post was started to nullify thomas's stats, he put up something like a 34 save shut out, or something and it was you know he didnt really face that many chances, svs% is over rated..

    maybe it was for that game, but in the 4-3 loss in montreal he was great and posted only a .902 but was terrific..
     

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