Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    File:Gnomes plan.png

    One of my favorite all-time favorite South Park bits - gnomes using a business plan to explain why they steal children's underpants.  Make profit!

    I see a similar gap in the reasoning behind firing Julien. There are lots of things that you could point to as rationales - his inability to improve the performance of the PP, the regular recurrance of mid-season swoons, persistent difficulties scoring goals (never worse than 2010) despite a roster that looks like it has a number of talented offensive players.  Along with the PP, lack of hitting/physical and emotional engagement has been a top charge against a coach who doesn't seem to be a guy who revs his team up game by game or make changes willingly when execution doesn't match design.  So don't get me wrong - in the context of pro sports, there are sufficient reasons to fire Julien after this year.  Maybe not if he wins a Cup or even a Wales, but you know, sufficient.

    The problem I have with it in the abstract is that we're thinking about why to dump the coach, not what's going to make the team better.  Pro sports is littered with examples of teams that get an initial boost from dumping coach A for coach B, but then they fade out again to playing at roughly the same level.  Good examples in hockey in recent memory would be the Hurricanes dumping Maurice for Laviolette, and winning a Cup with Laviolette before reverting to .500 form.  Then dumping Laviolette for Maurice and getting a short boost...before reverting to form and dumping Maurice for Muller who gave them a bit of a burst before they...reverted to form.  Shouldn't the lesson be "stay off the carousel" for the most part - especially if you think you have a coach who helps you win even if he has his weaknesses?

    What happens if they fire Julien?  This is still most of the roster that won a Cup under Julien, so it's an experienced group perceived to be in the middle of a "window" tied to Chara's age.  Do you go get a guy like Hawerchuk (like - I don't think Hawerchuk is leaving any time soon) and see if he can hold on long enough to make a difference the way Oates has?  Or do you retread a guy thinking that this team needs a coach with an NHL coaching resume?  Maybe Scotty Bowman's still lucid....  In other words, you make a move to go get a coach, not just to get rid of one.

    Once you do, how does that coach fit a roster that is tailored to Julien's style?  I think it's actually PC's organizational philosophy to avoid the pitfalls associated with too many megadeals and concentrate on depth, balance.  You roll four lines and try to minimize the drop off.  You play a sound and simple defensive system that let's you get a lot out of players with a little talent.  I think this is a huge risk, mostly on the back end.  In a less structured defensive system, I can see both Boychuk and McQuaid running around and getting exposed.  I can see Ference playing almost exactly the same.  Seidenberg's limitations, which made him expendable in both Carolina and Florida, also become more apparent.  I don't think you see more scoring from Kelly or Peverley or Horton because their lack of production hasn't been a system issue.  No coach can make Horton keep the puck below the crossbar or make Peverley shoot for something other than the crest, no matter what afterschool specials may have led you to believe.  You might get Lucic to hit more often, and fight more regularly - but does that necessarily get him back to 30 goal territory?  What about Krejci?  Does he score more with fewer defensive responsibilities?  Or does he need to have new wingers - guys not currently on the roster - to do taht?  Do the prospects go nuts because they move out some of these guys to make room?  And what if they CBourque?

    I think what people really want is "Julien+".  They want the shut-down defensive system, but with the hitting ramped up and the quick twitch offense of the 2011 Cup run - or at least, every second game of it.  Bit risk to get there just dumping Julien.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    File:Gnomes plan.png

    One of my favorite all-time favorite South Park bits - gnomes using a business plan to explain why they steal children's underpants.  Make profit!

    I see a similar gap in the reasoning behind firing Julien. There are lots of things that you could point to as rationales - his inability to improve the performance of the PP, the regular recurrance of mid-season swoons, persistent difficulties scoring goals (never worse than 2010) despite a roster that looks like it has a number of talented offensive players.  Along with the PP, lack of hitting/physical and emotional engagement has been a top charge against a coach who doesn't seem to be a guy who revs his team up game by game or make changes willingly when execution doesn't match design.  So don't get me wrong - in the context of pro sports, there are sufficient reasons to fire Julien after this year.  Maybe not if he wins a Cup or even a Wales, but you know, sufficient.

    The problem I have with it in the abstract is that we're thinking about why to dump the coach, not what's going to make the team better.  Pro sports is littered with examples of teams that get an initial boost from dumping coach A for coach B, but then they fade out again to playing at roughly the same level.  Good examples in hockey in recent memory would be the Hurricanes dumping Maurice for Laviolette, and winning a Cup with Laviolette before reverting to .500 form.  Then dumping Laviolette for Maurice and getting a short boost...before reverting to form and dumping Maurice for Muller who gave them a bit of a burst before they...reverted to form.  Shouldn't the lesson be "stay off the carousel" for the most part - especially if you think you have a coach who helps you win even if he has his weaknesses?

    What happens if they fire Julien?  This is still most of the roster that won a Cup under Julien, so it's an experienced group perceived to be in the middle of a "window" tied to Chara's age.  Do you go get a guy like Hawerchuk (like - I don't think Hawerchuk is leaving any time soon) and see if he can hold on long enough to make a difference the way Oates has?  Or do you retread a guy thinking that this team needs a coach with an NHL coaching resume?  Maybe Scotty Bowman's still lucid....  In other words, you make a move to go get a coach, not just to get rid of one.

    Once you do, how does that coach fit a roster that is tailored to Julien's style?  I think it's actually PC's organizational philosophy to avoid the pitfalls associated with too many megadeals and concentrate on depth, balance.  You roll four lines and try to minimize the drop off.  You play a sound and simple defensive system that let's you get a lot out of players with a little talent.  I think this is a huge risk, mostly on the back end.  In a less structured defensive system, I can see both Boychuk and McQuaid running around and getting exposed.  I can see Ference playing almost exactly the same.  Seidenberg's limitations, which made him expendable in both Carolina and Florida, also become more apparent.  I don't think you see more scoring from Kelly or Peverley or Horton because their lack of production hasn't been a system issue.  No coach can make Horton keep the puck below the crossbar or make Peverley shoot for something other than the crest, no matter what afterschool specials may have led you to believe.  You might get Lucic to hit more often, and fight more regularly - but does that necessarily get him back to 30 goal territory?  What about Krejci?  Does he score more with fewer defensive responsibilities?  Or does he need to have new wingers - guys not currently on the roster - to do taht?  Do the prospects go nuts because they move out some of these guys to make room?  And what if they CBourque?

    I think what people really want is "Julien+".  They want the shut-down defensive system, but with the hitting ramped up and the quick twitch offense of the 2011 Cup run - or at least, every second game of it.  Bit risk to get there just dumping Julien.



    Great post Book. This what i believe also, they want Julien to coach a great defensive team but be the Dos Equis guy on offence.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    On the flip side, does Keeping Championship Coach --> ?? --> Cup. In the semi-modern era, other than the greatest coach of all-time Scotty Bowman, Sather of the Oilers dynasty, and Al Arbour of the Islanders dynasty, the answer is a BIG NO!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    "You play a sound and simple defensive system that let's you get a lot out of players with a little talent.  I think this is a huge risk, mostly on the back end.  In a less structured defensive system, I can see both Boychuk and McQuaid running around and getting exposed.  I can see Ference playing almost exactly the same.  Seidenberg's limitations, which made him expendable in both Carolina and Florida, also become more apparent. 

    I don't think you see more scoring from Kelly or Peverley or Horton because their lack of production hasn't been a system issue.  No coach can make Horton keep the puck below the crossbar or make Peverley shoot for something other than the crest, no matter what afterschool specials may have led you to believe.  You might get Lucic to hit more often, and fight more regularly - but does that necessarily get him back to 30 goal territory? "

     

    Last season during November and December the Bruins would crush teams with possession of the puck then one cog, just one player gets taken out (Horton) and the whole "roll four' gets out of whack. In game management for Julien then goes hay wire, he refuses to to nail down his worst offensensive players to the bench when tied or down a goal late in periods.

    Now PC has four players, counted on to score, who are missing open looks and now the possibility of replacing 3 of them, Lucic will be given every chance to get out of his slump. Chiarelli could still keep Julien if the Bruins are out before the 2nd round but he would still need to replace Horton's right handed shot, last two years of Peverley's contract would need to be a "Strum type trade" and then you have hard nosed Kelly who is Julien's defensive-center-wet-dream to deal with as well, that means Chris stays.

    If Julien can't can't get Boston out of the 2nd round he has to go or should go. Then Kelly, Peverley and possibly Krejci (depending on the return) would need to go for players that would fit Laviolette's or Maurice's team. The Bruins need a partial makeover if they exit the 2013 playoffs too soon.

    I predict however that even with a first or second round exit Chiarelli keeps Julien which is the wrong move.

    PS. I was at the Rockford IceHogs-Texas Stars game last Saturday night. The Stars just got beat out by our PBruins for the best record in the AHL. Rockford went into the 3rd down 3-1 and looked like they would get blown out the rest of the game.

    My buddy from Dallas turns to me and says "This game is in the bag". I said "Not if the Rockford coach plays his 5 20+ goal scorers the whole 3rd period". The IceHogs 3rd and 4th line(s) did not get one shift during the 3rd period and Rockford won the game 5-3. In game management won that game.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrrGOAT2. Show No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    Imagine Espo with his 45sec shifts every 4th shift, Cj would not have made it 10 games back then, playing Orr 24 instead of his 40mins.  You play your better players more often and you will win more, game in the bag you can rest them when required, but the stars would have raised a stink.

    Yeah Grets you have 3 points no need to play the 3rd and score 7 or 8 points against this mickey mouse team (NJ).

    Lafleur no double shifting tonight, we play again tomorrow.

     

     

    I understand balance and rest, and there is no I in team,    BUT Cj needs to understand when to play the best players, over and over, double shifting can be fun and let them have selfish moments because there is an I in win and individuals at times need to stand out and take the team on their shoulders.  This seems what JJ has been trying to do a lot lately because being new to the julien system, he seems to have a little more leeway than anyone on the team.

    Cj had his chance for repeat, this team is very talented, starting your 4th line in back to back games for puck drop is just shear stupidity and cj has this in abundance at times.  The games are great to watch because we have a very talented team and the hope is very high for another cup because of this, but cj needs to be proactive not be reactive.

    I will enjoy every game of the playoffs, cursing at every shift, hit or bad pass even, I will be ecstatic with a cup or devastated with a loss.

    I am and will always be a hard core B's fan, I want what is best for the team and a chance for the win, but Cj needs to be proactive in adapting to game scenarios or he will need to be gone.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to Klaas's comment:

    On the flip side, does Keeping Championship Coach --> ?? --> Cup. In the semi-modern era, other than the greatest coach of all-time Scotty Bowman, Sather of the Oilers dynasty, and Al Arbour of the Islanders dynasty, the answer is a BIG NO!



    No, but the point is shouldn't you make a move because you know what you need rather than just because you want a change?  To me, getting rid of a coach who's winning but not winning the Cup every year in favour of an unknown who may not fit the personnel is flailing.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrrGOAT2. Show No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to Klaas's comment:

     

    On the flip side, does Keeping Championship Coach --> ?? --> Cup. In the semi-modern era, other than the greatest coach of all-time Scotty Bowman, Sather of the Oilers dynasty, and Al Arbour of the Islanders dynasty, the answer is a BIG NO!

     



    No, but the point is shouldn't you make a move because you know what you need rather than just because you want a change?  To me, getting rid of a coach who's winning but not winning the Cup every year in favour of an unknown who may not fit the personnel is flailing.

     




    Is not starting the 4th line to open games or shifting your 4th line players to top line flailing.

    The talent here as a team is very good, there is no superstars like Crosby or OV, but there are top stars of the game on this team that are in the next to elite category, such as the Berg line as a unit. This team as a whole is as good or better than any in the league, a playoff exit is a failure if all are healthy and the coach of an elite team should know this more than a team that is undertalented and just praying for a shot at the playoffs.

    The talent has been once more assembled, it is now up to the coach to implement the talent to their highest potential, not to his.

    ST playing, as much as he is a team or community guy, is a heavy burden for the rest of the team to carry.  He may bury the odd one but a talented play that can skate could not do worse.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hty239. Show hty239's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    What a pathetic link...short phrases people 

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

     

    I think what people really want is "Julien+". 

    [/QUOTE]

    Nice post, but I disagree.  Those people you're referring to...they want a win every night.  Doesn't matter how stinky it is, they'll always assume it means dominance.  They want, and will settle for nothing less than a cup.

    When that doesn't happen, they don't have the intellectual gonads to figure out why it didn't happen, or to put it in perspective, therefore they don't care.

    What's easy and convenient though...is pick out a villan, and lop off their head.  It's always been great therapy for the dumbest among us.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup


     

    shouldn't you make a move because you know what you need rather than just because you want a change?  To me, getting rid of a coach who's winning but not winning the Cup every year in favour of an unknown who may not fit the personnel is flailing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Book....the above really shouldn't be interpreted as opinion.  Thinking it's anything less than scripture....absolute truth...wisdom.....is nuts. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to ipotnyc's comment:

    They beat the Panthers - the worst team in hockey, with the worst offense, and a 5 game losing streak coming in - because Rask stood on his head.  

     

    One must ask: is the goal the Cup or some allegiance to the coach?  Good for the 'Canes for firing Maurice and bringing in Laviolette.  He won them a Cup.  Does it really matter what happened the year later?  Ditto the Caps last year when Hunter was thrown in; they were 1 ugly goal away from the Eastern Finals.




    Cmon ipot.

    #1.  The Bruins did not win that game because Rask stood on his head.  You'd scrounge the world, and wouldn't find a hockey expert who'd say the B's should have lost.

    #2.  Of course it's not about "some allegiance to the coach".  Do you really feel  Laviolette won anyone a cup?  What exactly is the difference between CJ, the choker who made history against Philly, and CJ, the pied piper who lead a group of underwhelming peasants to the promised land against the mighty Canucks, while smashing obstacles as legendary as his own collapse only a year earlier?

    Where should B' be sitting right now to ensure a coach 2 more months job security?

    And...CJ was only "one ugly goal away" from disposing both the Caps in 12, and Philadelphia in 10.   You're certainly giving that dick... Hunter...tons of wiggle room you're not willing to extend our own guy.

    This idiotic merry-go-round of firing coaches is nothing more than a little extra push from the media, and life support for GM's that don't have a flucking clue. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    Probably a little biased since Julien is the coach of a Bruins team that has won the Cup for the first time in my lifetime, so I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. The man knows his hockey, but, is he too stubborn to make adjustments?

    Here is some of the concerns I have:

    1.Have Lucic and Horton tuned him out? Seems he has tried everything, especially with Lucic, but to no avail. I sure expected a different Lucic yesterday after his very public benching. I just saw the same.

    2. The power play. Blame Geoff Ward all you want,and you'd be right, but this ultimatley falls on Julien. Should they have an early exit from this years playoffs, this will be his downfall. Seems he has tried every formula, but the right one.

    3. The use of Tyler Seguin. Is he beng put in the right enviorment where his skill level is being utilized correctly? Before the injuries, Campbell, on more than one occasion, was getting more 5 on 5 ice time than him.

    4. The use of all four lines. Too many times we've seen the Bruins down a goal in the waining minutes only to see Shawn Thornton and the fourth line on the ice. Perhaps shortening the bench and using a timeout would bring different results.

    5. Too quick to go into protect mode. Too many times we've seen the Bruins establish a lead only to see them literaly stop trying to score. This is a concerning trend that you can literally see happening on your television.

    I like Julien. But I don't play for him. Some coaches just have a shelf life no matter how good they are. They have a couple of their higher end players that almost seem to refuse to play up their potential. Whats the reason? I have no doubt the man knows his hockey, and he knows his system. But does he know his team? Lou Lammiarello didn't think so one year.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

     

    Probably a little biased since Julien is the coach of a Bruins team that has won the Cup for the first time in my lifetime, so I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. The man knows his hockey, but, is he too stubborn to make adjustments?

    Here is some of the concerns I have:

    1.Have Lucic and Horton tuned him out? Seems he has tried everything, especially with Lucic, but to no avail. I sure expected a different Lucic yesterday after his very public benching. I just saw the same.

    2. The power play. Blame Geoff Ward all you want,and you'd be right, but this ultimatley falls on Julien. Should they have an early exit from this years playoffs, this will be his downfall. Seems he has tried every formula, but the right one.

    3. The use of Tyler Seguin. Is he beng put in the right enviorment where his skill level is being utilized correctly? Before the injuries, Campbell, on more than one occasion, was getting more 5 on 5 ice time than him.

    4. The use of all four lines. Too many times we've seen the Bruins down a goal in the waining minutes only to see Shawn Thornton and the fourth line on the ice. Perhaps shortening the bench and using a timeout would bring different results.

    5. Too quick to go into protect mode. Too many times we've seen the Bruins establish a lead only to see them literaly stop trying to score. This is a concerning trend that you can literally see happening on your television.

    I like Julien. But I don't play for him. Some coaches just have a shelf life no matter how good they are. They have a couple of their higher end players that almost seem to refuse to play up their potential. Whats the reason? I have no doubt the man knows his hockey, and he knows his system. But does he know his team? Lou Lammiarello didn't think so one year.

     



    But what does Lou know, other than the fact he would have made Lemaire his coach for life.Old Lou has had the most boring team in the league since he got there and that says a lot. They have won three Cups though so if your into Cup wins we could try to coax Lou to be GM of the B's.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mxt. Show mxt's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    I convinced this team is much better than the one that continues to lose close games that it should win. CJ's decision to play some of our less talented players at the end of these games is confusing to most and very well may be for the players. It would be interesting to know the players really think of him. Heck, for all we know they may love him. Me? I'd roll the dice and let him go right now just as Jersey did a few years back. Then again, I don't have to make those decisions. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's comment:

    Imagine Espo with his 45sec shifts every 4th shift, Cj would not have made it 10 games back then, playing Orr 24 instead of his 40mins.  You play your better players more often and you will win more, game in the bag you can rest them when required, but the stars would have raised a stink.

    Yeah Grets you have 3 points no need to play the 3rd and score 7 or 8 points against this mickey mouse team (NJ).

    Lafleur no double shifting tonight, we play again tomorrow.

     

     

    I understand balance and rest, and there is no I in team,    BUT Cj needs to understand when to play the best players, over and over, double shifting can be fun and let them have selfish moments because there is an I in win and individuals at times need to stand out and take the team on their shoulders.  This seems what JJ has been trying to do a lot lately because being new to the julien system, he seems to have a little more leeway than anyone on the team.

    Cj had his chance for repeat, this team is very talented, starting your 4th line in back to back games for puck drop is just shear stupidity and cj has this in abundance at times.  The games are great to watch because we have a very talented team and the hope is very high for another cup because of this, but cj needs to be proactive not be reactive.

    I will enjoy every game of the playoffs, cursing at every shift, hit or bad pass even, I will be ecstatic with a cup or devastated with a loss.

    I am and will always be a hard core B's fan, I want what is best for the team and a chance for the win, but Cj needs to be proactive in adapting to game scenarios or he will need to be gone.




    I understand how frustrating losing is....but this team doesn't have an Esposito, or an Orr.  It doesn't have a Johnny Bucyk, or a Ken Hodge, or a Wayne Cashman near the top of the scoring sheets either.

    There are many reasons why a coach would start the game with the 4th line.  You shouldn't be so critical just because you can't figure those things out.

    Expectation is the real problem here.  The B's are just another one of the original 30.  When they have their mojo, they can possibly beat anyone.  When they aren't incredibly hungry, they're nothing more than average.  We've seen this...from basically this same bunch for about 4  years now.  What's so surprising, and who is the white knight that's gonna change that all of a sudden.  They're not a powerhouse...never were, and there really are none anyway.  Play at the top of your game, you'll probably win.  Don't and you'll probably lose.  There are lots of exceptions, but the long haul always balances the scales.

    Wasn't Julians fault the team layed down vs Philadelphia.  He doesn't deserve the credit for scoring that game 7 goal against Montreal a year later either,  that prevented another hissy fit from Boston sports fans.  Wasn't CJ's fault the Caps scored in game 7 last year, and he really didn't do a lot for Rasks shut out yesterday either.

    Today, big league teams are coached by committee.  Giving Julien too much praise...or too much criticism, is just confusing probable cause.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's comment:


    Is not starting the 4th line to open games or shifting your 4th line players to top line flailing.

    The talent here as a team is very good, there is no superstars like Crosby or OV, but there are top stars of the game on this team that are in the next to elite category, such as the Berg line as a unit. This team as a whole is as good or better than any in the league, a playoff exit is a failure if all are healthy and the coach of an elite team should know this more than a team that is undertalented and just praying for a shot at the playoffs.

    The talent has been once more assembled, it is now up to the coach to implement the talent to their highest potential, not to his.

    ST playing, as much as he is a team or community guy, is a heavy burden for the rest of the team to carry.  He may bury the odd one but a talented play that can skate could not do worse.



    I don't think starting the 4th line is flailing when you have two guys on the line who are used to playing on the PK.  They're used to being short-handed.  But seriously, it's not what I'd choose I guess, but it's not stupid or irrational or flailing.  Many nights, that line is the hardest working line thanks to Campbell and Paille.  If you want to set the tone, establish a forecheck and a physical presence, or blunt a team that is chomping at the bit because they're coming off of a bad loss or a good victory, I can see the point.  Especially if you have last change, because if your opponent comes out with their top D pairing to start, and they burn minutes against the fourth line, that next shift the Bergeron line or Krejci play against a weaker D pair and hopefully can build off of the energy that the 4th line generates.  I've given a reason for the 4th line to be out in the final three minutes, too - it's like playing small ball.  Play the 4th to get the faceoff in the D zone so you can call timeout, pull the goalie, and send out well-rested scorers from the top three lines.  Do I agree with it?  If it works....

    There is a lot of talent here, sure, but because there are very few "chuck em over the boards and let em go" kind of players, you do need a coach who is consistent and works to create chemistry.  From Krejci's comments earlier in the year when Lucic was taken off that line for the first time, I think the players are actually more loyal to a guy who lets them work through bad stretches.

    Two last points - this team has trouble passing.  You can see it whenever they slump, and this is in spite of the fact that the system is based on a lot of short passes adn puck support.  But they can't make tape to tape passes or two in a row.  You watch Jagr effortlessly put the puck where it needs to be for a guy to shoot or take the pass in stride and the difference is striking.  The coach is doing all he can to minimize this weakness, but when the players are putting pass after pass on the receiver's back foot, whose fault is it?  Second, I remember an early discussion about Julien's system and Julien basically saying that the players have all the freedom in the world to create offense as long as they take care of the defensive responsibilities.  If that's true, it means they only get better offensively by taking some of the D pressure off.  Does that help?  I don't know, I really don't, but I look at Nashville this year with an elite goalie and a Norris caliber #1 D-man and a really solid two way centre and worlds of trouble scoring and think there but for the grace.....

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrrGOAT2. Show No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's comment:

     

    Imagine Espo with his 45sec shifts every 4th shift, Cj would not have made it 10 games back then, playing Orr 24 instead of his 40mins.  You play your better players more often and you will win more, game in the bag you can rest them when required, but the stars would have raised a stink.

    Yeah Grets you have 3 points no need to play the 3rd and score 7 or 8 points against this mickey mouse team (NJ).

    Lafleur no double shifting tonight, we play again tomorrow.

     

     

    I understand balance and rest, and there is no I in team,    BUT Cj needs to understand when to play the best players, over and over, double shifting can be fun and let them have selfish moments because there is an I in win and individuals at times need to stand out and take the team on their shoulders.  This seems what JJ has been trying to do a lot lately because being new to the julien system, he seems to have a little more leeway than anyone on the team.

    Cj had his chance for repeat, this team is very talented, starting your 4th line in back to back games for puck drop is just shear stupidity and cj has this in abundance at times.  The games are great to watch because we have a very talented team and the hope is very high for another cup because of this, but cj needs to be proactive not be reactive.

    I will enjoy every game of the playoffs, cursing at every shift, hit or bad pass even, I will be ecstatic with a cup or devastated with a loss.

    I am and will always be a hard core B's fan, I want what is best for the team and a chance for the win, but Cj needs to be proactive in adapting to game scenarios or he will need to be gone.

     




     

    I understand how frustrating losing is....but this team doesn't have an Esposito, or an Orr.  It doesn't have a Johnny Bucyk, or a Ken Hodge, or a Wayne Cashman near the top of the scoring sheets either.

    There are many reasons why a coach would start the game with the 4th line.  You shouldn't be so critical just because you can't figure those things out.

    Expectation is the real problem here.  The B's are just another one of the original 30.  When they have their mojo, they can possibly beat anyone.  When they aren't incredibly hungry, they're nothing more than average.  We've seen this...from basically this same bunch for about 4  years now.  What's so surprising, and who is the white knight that's gonna change that all of a sudden.  They're not a powerhouse...never were, and there really are none anyway.  Play at the top of your game, you'll probably win.  Don't and you'll probably lose.  There are lots of exceptions, but the long haul always balances the scales.

    Wasn't Julians fault the team layed down vs Philadelphia.  He doesn't deserve the credit for scoring that game 7 goal against Montreal a year later either,  that prevented another hissy fit from Boston sports fans.  Wasn't CJ's fault the Caps scored in game 7 last year, and he really didn't do a lot for Rasks shut out yesterday either.

    Today, big league teams are coached by committee.  Giving Julien too much praise...or too much criticism, is just confusing probable cause.




    Are you really this dense, as in your last 4 posts.

     

    Yes we would all like a win every night, but we know that is not possible.  What is missing is cj's actions that would make any sense to all others, that are not yourself and cj.  C'mon starting the 4th line, it must be so you can rest your top lines for the last minute of play, oh wait the 4th line is the top line as noted by starting them, so lets bring them back on for the last minute.

    I agree that Cj is probably the best defensive coach in the league (i have stated this many times) but his thought processes at many times of the game, just simply exasparate me and anyone with hockey knowledge.

    His use of the 4th line is the mainstay- 1-start the game with them 2-play them late in close scored games(up or down a goal) 3-play them after TV timeouts when all are thoroughly rested 4-use of ST at any time 5-Use of either Pail or Camp on first line 6-Panda

    Cj will be here for a couple of more years, of that I have no doubt, he can't skate for the players, hit for the players or score for the players, but he does need to utilize the better players more, not more of the skating clown.

    B's won their last 2 cups 2 years apart with 2 different coaches.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrrGOAT2. Show No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to No4BobbyOrrGOAT2's comment:

     


    Is not starting the 4th line to open games or shifting your 4th line players to top line flailing.

    The talent here as a team is very good, there is no superstars like Crosby or OV, but there are top stars of the game on this team that are in the next to elite category, such as the Berg line as a unit. This team as a whole is as good or better than any in the league, a playoff exit is a failure if all are healthy and the coach of an elite team should know this more than a team that is undertalented and just praying for a shot at the playoffs.

    The talent has been once more assembled, it is now up to the coach to implement the talent to their highest potential, not to his.

    ST playing, as much as he is a team or community guy, is a heavy burden for the rest of the team to carry.  He may bury the odd one but a talented play that can skate could not do worse.

     



    I don't think starting the 4th line is flailing when you have two guys on the line who are used to playing on the PK.  They're used to being short-handed.  But seriously, it's not what I'd choose I guess, but it's not stupid or irrational or flailing.  Many nights, that line is the hardest working line thanks to Campbell and Paille.  If you want to set the tone, establish a forecheck and a physical presence, or blunt a team that is chomping at the bit because they're coming off of a bad loss or a good victory, I can see the point.  Especially if you have last change, because if your opponent comes out with their top D pairing to start, and they burn minutes against the fourth line, that next shift the Bergeron line or Krejci play against a weaker D pair and hopefully can build off of the energy that the 4th line generates.  I've given a reason for the 4th line to be out in the final three minutes, too - it's like playing small ball.  Play the 4th to get the faceoff in the D zone so you can call timeout, pull the goalie, and send out well-rested scorers from the top three lines.  Do I agree with it?  If it works....

     

    There is a lot of talent here, sure, but because there are very few "chuck em over the boards and let em go" kind of players, you do need a coach who is consistent and works to create chemistry.  From Krejci's comments earlier in the year when Lucic was taken off that line for the first time, I think the players are actually more loyal to a guy who lets them work through bad stretches.

    Two last points - this team has trouble passing.  You can see it whenever they slump, and this is in spite of the fact that the system is based on a lot of short passes adn puck support.  But they can't make tape to tape passes or two in a row.  You watch Jagr effortlessly put the puck where it needs to be for a guy to shoot or take the pass in stride and the difference is striking.  The coach is doing all he can to minimize this weakness, but when the players are putting pass after pass on the receiver's back foot, whose fault is it?  Second, I remember an early discussion about Julien's system and Julien basically saying that the players have all the freedom in the world to create offense as long as they take care of the defensive responsibilities.  If that's true, it means they only get better offensively by taking some of the D pressure off.  Does that help?  I don't know, I really don't, but I look at Nashville this year with an elite goalie and a Norris caliber #1 D-man and a really solid two way centre and worlds of trouble scoring and think there but for the grace.....




    We are not starting the game on the PK, though are we.lol  Unless of course you are starting the 4th line with ST.lol lol

    We have also started with these guys having a great forecheck the puck comes back to our end and we ice it with an errant pass or just to take the pressure off, and we start the second shift with our 4th still on the ice.  Bottom line you play your best players when you can.  If it is a head to head thing against top line, cj used to start Berg against the top line of the other team, why not now.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    The position I must take is that hiring a coach should be a well thought out process.  

    The world according to PC:  Lewis was the first answer, the mind set then was to copy Buffalo's system in developing talent, and replicate the Detriot system of play.  Fail.  The next avenue was to find a coach who could institute a defensive system for a less talented team with at 6'9' defenseman now known on these boards as Cedfano.  It worked but slowly, how agonizing it was to watch those one goal victories or Shootout points.  Then a perfect storm, 2011, it was filled with all the impossibles.  Legends were made of PC who traded Wideout for Horton, Stuart and Wheeler for Peverly so he could add Kaberle, Thomas was a superhuman in the playoffs before turning to his Colorado bunker, Ryder of the storm made saves in net and scored timely goals, ah those were the days.  

    So I will spin no more.  I do not want any other coach than CJ right now.  I do not want the Bs from five years ago.  The team is talented.  The coach has a system that does work in the "shootout" regular season and won a Cup two years ago.  Does the team have deficiencies?  Well, around this time next year many team will have deficiencies with the Cap dropping.  Even the Pens have questions in goal and on defense.  My point is the Bs team is young enough with a system that has proven to work to stay the course.  If PC is as smart as "Belichick", he will b evaluated at who is to be maintained and who should be promoted from the ranks in the coming years.  Meanwhile the Bs still will have a chance to win the Cup each year if he does an excellent job.  I like those odds.   In a NHL of parity, that is smart.  If it is difficult to find and hire a coach, it should be difficult to fire or dismiss a coach especially one who has proven to be successful.  

    YellPlease don't bring up the power play or PMD, for I will get depressed.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    Probably a little biased since Julien is the coach of a Bruins team that has won the Cup for the first time in my lifetime, so I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. The man knows his hockey, but, is he too stubborn to make adjustments?

    Here is some of the concerns I have:

    1.Have Lucic and Horton tuned him out? Seems he has tried everything, especially with Lucic, but to no avail. I sure expected a different Lucic yesterday after his very public benching. I just saw the same.

    2. The power play. Blame Geoff Ward all you want,and you'd be right, but this ultimatley falls on Julien. Should they have an early exit from this years playoffs, this will be his downfall. Seems he has tried every formula, but the right one.

    3. The use of Tyler Seguin. Is he beng put in the right enviorment where his skill level is being utilized correctly? Before the injuries, Campbell, on more than one occasion, was getting more 5 on 5 ice time than him.

    4. The use of all four lines. Too many times we've seen the Bruins down a goal in the waining minutes only to see Shawn Thornton and the fourth line on the ice. Perhaps shortening the bench and using a timeout would bring different results.

    5. Too quick to go into protect mode. Too many times we've seen the Bruins establish a lead only to see them literaly stop trying to score. This is a concerning trend that you can literally see happening on your television.

    I like Julien. But I don't play for him. Some coaches just have a shelf life no matter how good they are. They have a couple of their higher end players that almost seem to refuse to play up their potential. Whats the reason? I have no doubt the man knows his hockey, and he knows his system. But does he know his team? Lou Lammiarello didn't think so one year.



    Good fodder for a discussion Kel

    #1.  You'd be amazed at how many guys never "tune a coach in".    There are "systems" as defined by the team that one must play within, but the whole concept of playing for the coach is hopelessly overblown.  I have some issues with the Lucic thing too, but I know there is so much critical information that I don't know.  I do know that Lucic, and everbody else on that team plays for each other, not the coach, and even less so... the farther up the corporate ladder it goes.

    2.  I really don't blame CJ.  It's really a committee thing.  Maybe a new PP coach is in order, but that's not CJ's call.  It's PC's.  Like you...the PP drives me nuts.  I think there are things that need to be done there,,,things that are pretty obvious to me...but for whatever reason, it just keeps sputterring.  Again, from Neely down, they're all over this thing, so I don't think it's fair to blame it all on CJ.

    3.  Seguin.  I think he needs to get his head out of his arze.  He's looking like Samsonov lite to me.  He's regressed for some reason.  Could say he's been over programmed defensively, and if that were true, one could blame the coach...but what's killing me about Seguin...is what he's doing when he's playing offensively.

    4.  I agree with the 4 lines stuff, but I think the nutrition, conditioning folks are shaping that philosophy.  It seems to me this should be easily fixed, if it were an issue that the brass had a problem with.  Again coaching by committee.  I just can't see Cam Neely, or somebody saying, "play your best down the stretch if need be".  Coaches do have to take orders, and it would seem to me that someone would have laid down that edict...if a few people in the company agreed with our assessment. 

    5.  That drives me fluckin nuts.  Don;t think that has anything to do with coaching though.  The B's have a very deliberate system, and when played out...doesn't include "sitting around".  To me...it's all about hunger, coupled with the right amount of discipline and confidence.  In 11, they sure didn't have it for most of that Montreal series, and it was on and off until game 3 of the finals.  Last year it didn't show up at all.  This year ,it's business as usual.

    The one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that champions don't rely on "coaches" to summon their "game".  Gamers don't need a kick, they need to be reigned.  If I put that responsibility on the coach, and it didn't happen, I guess I'd have to suggest the team needs blown up too.  Regardless of this years outcome, I think that'd be a mistake. 

    Stability is a great thing.  Sometimes it's a good idea to turn over a coach though.  The key , is having concrete rationale for the move...explaining it in detail, and holding the GM accountable if improvement isn't made.  Anything else...it's just  spin.  Over the 45 plus years i've been watching and playing competitive hockey, I have witnessed very few examples where a coaching change has brought better short term results.  Long term improvements are generally associated with other changes.  My experience is that the majority of times, a coaching change is the function of "no idea", rather than a "better idea".

    Whenever this C J stuff comes up, there's always the New Jersey thing.  Some people really like to hang off that.   Well. CJ led that group to the 3rd best record in the league.  LL whacked him, went behind the bench and got hammered by a lower seed in the second round.  With the luxury of hindsight,  I find it really difficult to see how anyone could see the wizardry in that move.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

     

    Probably a little biased since Julien is the coach of a Bruins team that has won the Cup for the first time in my lifetime, so I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. The man knows his hockey, but, is he too stubborn to make adjustments?

    Here is some of the concerns I have:

    1.Have Lucic and Horton tuned him out? Seems he has tried everything, especially with Lucic, but to no avail. I sure expected a different Lucic yesterday after his very public benching. I just saw the same.

    2. The power play. Blame Geoff Ward all you want,and you'd be right, but this ultimatley falls on Julien. Should they have an early exit from this years playoffs, this will be his downfall. Seems he has tried every formula, but the right one.

    3. The use of Tyler Seguin. Is he beng put in the right enviorment where his skill level is being utilized correctly? Before the injuries, Campbell, on more than one occasion, was getting more 5 on 5 ice time than him.

    4. The use of all four lines. Too many times we've seen the Bruins down a goal in the waining minutes only to see Shawn Thornton and the fourth line on the ice. Perhaps shortening the bench and using a timeout would bring different results.

    5. Too quick to go into protect mode. Too many times we've seen the Bruins establish a lead only to see them literaly stop trying to score. This is a concerning trend that you can literally see happening on your television.

    I like Julien. But I don't play for him. Some coaches just have a shelf life no matter how good they are. They have a couple of their higher end players that almost seem to refuse to play up their potential. Whats the reason? I have no doubt the man knows his hockey, and he knows his system. But does he know his team? Lou Lammiarello didn't think so one year.

     



    Good fodder for a discussion Kel

     

    #1.  You'd be amazed at how many guys never "tune a coach in".    There are "systems" as defined by the team that one must play within, but the whole concept of playing for the coach is hopelessly overblown.  I have some issues with the Lucic thing too, but I know there is so much critical information that I don't know.  I do know that Lucic, and everbody else on that team plays for each other, not the coach, and even less so... the farther up the corporate ladder it goes.

    2.  I really don't blame CJ.  It's really a committee thing.  Maybe a new PP coach is in order, but that's not CJ's call.  It's PC's.  Like you...the PP drives me nuts.  I think there are things that need to be done there,,,things that are pretty obvious to me...but for whatever reason, it just keeps sputterring.  Again, from Neely down, they're all over this thing, so I don't think it's fair to blame it all on CJ.

    3.  Seguin.  I think he needs to get his head out of his arze.  He's looking like Samsonov lite to me.  He's regressed for some reason.  Could say he's been over programmed defensively, and if that were true, one could blame the coach...but what's killing me about Seguin...is what he's doing when he's playing offensively.

    4.  I agree with the 4 lines stuff, but I think the nutrition, conditioning folks are shaping that philosophy.  It seems to me this should be easily fixed, if it were an issue that the brass had a problem with.  Again coaching by committee.  I just can't see Cam Neely, or somebody saying, "play your best down the stretch if need be".  Coaches do have to take orders, and it would seem to me that someone would have laid down that edict...if a few people in the company agreed with our assessment. 

    5.  That drives me fluckin nuts.  Don;t think that has anything to do with coaching though.  The B's have a very deliberate system, and when played out...doesn't include "sitting around".  To me...it's all about hunger, coupled with the right amount of discipline and confidence.  In 11, they sure didn't have it for most of that Montreal series, and it was on and off until game 3 of the finals.  Last year it didn't show up at all.  This year ,it's business as usual.

    The one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that champions don't rely on "coaches" to summon their "game".  Gamers don't need a kick, they need to be reigned.  If I put that responsibility on the coach, and it didn't happen, I guess I'd have to suggest the team needs blown up too.  Regardless of this years outcome, I think that'd be a mistake. 

    Stability is a great thing.  Sometimes it's a good idea to turn over a coach though.  The key , is having concrete rationale for the move...explaining it in detail, and holding the GM accountable if improvement isn't made.  Anything else...it's just  spin.  Over the 45 plus years i've been watching and playing competitive hockey, I have witnessed very few examples where a coaching change has brought better short term results.  Long term improvements are generally associated with other changes.  My experience is that the majority of times, a coaching change is the function of "no idea", rather than a "better idea".

    Whenever this C J stuff comes up, there's always the New Jersey thing.  Some people really like to hang off that.   Well. CJ led that group to the 3rd best record in the league.  LL whacked him, went behind the bench and got hammered by a lower seed in the second round.  With the luxury of hindsight,  I find it really difficult to see how anyone could see the wizardry in that move.


    Thats how i see it too, in hindsight of course, but maybe Lou made a big mistake.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sportsnutty. Show Sportsnutty's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    So the latest is CJ doesn't play his best players the correct amount of time...

    Bergeron 19:15

    Krejci 18:42

    Marchand 17:04

    Lucic 17:03

    Seguin 17:03

    Paille 12:41

    Campbell 13:42

    Others...

    Malkin 19:44

    Toews 19:33

    H. Sedin 19:49

    Corey Perry 19:16

    Datsyuk 20:14

    Next argument...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Fire Coach --> ?? --> Cup

    "getting rid of a coach who's winning but not winning the Cup every year in favour of an unknown who may not fit the personnel is flailing."

     

    Who wants an unkown for Julien ?

     
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