Fundamental

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]What we had was non-performance from key players like Horton, Recchi[ love him,BUT],Chara, and Julien, totally out of control. Ryder, lucky goal, did nothing else all night; Thornton thinks he's a scorer and is worse than before; Marchand did have a poor game, not his usual intensity. This team does not seem to be prepared frequently. That means poor coaching. Granted that some players should be moved and Chiarelli has been waiting for Savard. Fluto indicated that all they need is to move Wheeler. Do not understand how $5+ mil becomes $2mil. Ryder goes when Savvy is ready. Wheels has been playing much better at center, so when Savvy is back expect Wheels to be traded, although adding Seguin and Wheels to Savard would not be so bad. Time to put Thornton on the shelf and Recchi on the 4th line plus some PP work.
    Posted by Bogie6[/QUOTE]
    Amazing that ryder should score since he was awful both before and after the goal.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    Do ya think CJ started the 4th line to make a statement ?  Do ya think CJ was as frustrated with the lackluster play coming from the first 2 lines ? And, how long did he keep the 4th line on when the puck dropped ? And why is this an issue when there is more serious issues staring this club in the face ?

     Why did CJ "tweak" his lines, after a great game played against the Kings ?  The goals I saw Tampa score were because of big defensive break downs in our end. Not good. Better & smarter effort needed.  Go Bruins Go !
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from yep123. Show yep123's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    Posted this same point on another discussion, but seems to be revelvant in this discussion as well.....

    I've said this in the past; CJ system of collapsing & allowing teams to attack will never win in the end!!!  Tampa attakced their D, pinched on the high wings who are basically stationary, passed around the collapsing D zone coverage, its very frustrating to watch....the have the guns they are just not utilizing them correctly IMO.

    There are other coaches out there, I had never even heard of the coach in Tampa before last night, they zoomed in on him a couple of times rallying his team going over lanes, exploiting what the B's were doing, its called ADJUSTMENTS...CJ just doesnt do it, bunch of robots out there!!!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]In the first period, Thornton had more ice time than Bergeron. God forbid they try to get the lead.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    This might be the best post on the subject if you think about it.  Basically, it's about the impact of CJ's roll-em-over philosophy - when there are no special teams situations or opportunities to catch the opposition after an icing, a 4th liner may well end up with more ice than a first or second liner.  One of the things it should tell you, though, is maybe the 4th line's getting pinned in its end and therefore getting stuck for longer shifts.

    The reason you stick with a 4 line strategy is that it manages your energy.  Your best players should be giving you better minutes, especially in the 3rd.  We've also seen that the 4th line, when it's really going, can keep the tempo and momentum up when it's contributing a regular shift.  And that seems to be working for the Bruins when the 4th line is playing well - that's one part of why they're able to be dominant in the 3rd after being dormant in the 1st and 2nd - and they've stormed back from three goal deficits twice that I remember this year.

    That said...maybe you don't need to storm back if you've pushed to get the lead.  The Bruins are a much better team with the lead than when pursuing it.  Not perfect, but better.  Rolling 4 when you have the lead is what the Devils did so effectively in their hey-day, and it made the careers of their fourth liners like Randy McKay who beat down the opposition with fresher legs and the knowledge that they could be that little bit more aggressive with the lead.

    I'd love to see Julien go no-huddle to start a game here.  Roll something like Krejci, Bergeron, Krejci, Wheeler, Krejci, Bergeron, Wheeler, Bergeron, Krejci, Campbell, Bergeron, Krejci, Wheeler.  That's your first 10 minutes, and, based on 47 second shifts, it gives Krejci's line 3:55, Bergeron's 3:11, Wheeler's 1:34, and Campbell 0:47.  Seeing as I'm using football terms for this - it would be like Bill Walsh scripting plays.  Don't react to game situations with it - except PK/PP of course - just roll it out with instructions to push the pace.  If you did need to adjust, you could change wingers rather than alter this rotation.

    Worst case scenario is probably that you play the third and fourth line more for the second half of the period to give the top lines time to preserve some energy.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    What does "we didn't play for 60 minutes" mean anyways?  Isn't it really the same as "we were outplayed too often"?  That's more an admission of failure than an excuse.

    They definitely need to do a better job of getting a balance between pushing to get the first goal, and not giving up a plethora of odd-man rushes as a result.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TryToBearIt. Show TryToBearIt's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    CJ wants it both ways--he portions out ice time based on who "wants it more"...who's skating hardest, etc., and in that sense, it was clearly a "message" to the rest of the starters that their sub-par effort in the first 2 periods meant the 4th line would start the 3rd...

    BUT it's also CJ's continual stubborness in rolling out 4 lines all the time that gives less time for the more talented players to turn it around, get in gear, and score some goals so they're playing with a lead rather than catch-up all the time.

    When Savvy gets back he'll do more of this b/c he'll want to ease him back into the fold, and we'll be seeing a lot of catch-up hockey as a result. One thing this team is not built for is catch-up hockey (and please don't point to the 3-0 comeback against LA as proof that they are--that was an exception, not the rule.)


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Fundamental


    chicken or egg question, is the 4th line getting more ice because they are scoring, or is the 4th scoring more because they are getting more ice?

    I think certain coaches suit certain teams better.  CJ is just fine for an average grinder type team and not good for anything more.

    he is trying to do new stuff, but as with trying anything new you stumble before you can walk and he's stumbling.

    I see the same problem as last year, team not prepared.  That's the only explanation I can come up with for the bad starts.  It's only after the game starts does he start to make adjustments.  It's coaching catch up.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]chicken or egg question, is the 4th line getting more ice because they are scoring, or is the 4th scoring more because they are getting more ice? I think certain coaches suit certain teams better.  CJ is just fine for an average grinder type team and not good for anything more. he is trying to do new stuff, but as with trying anything new you stumble before you can walk and he's stumbling. I see the same problem as last year, team not prepared.  That's the only explanation I can come up with for the bad starts.  It's only after the game starts does he start to make adjustments.  It's coaching catch up.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]

    While the Bruins are playing Catch up in the game. They've let in how many first goals in the last 10 games now?

    Not trying to sound like the sky is falling and I dont watch other teams enough to know but do the habs or the redwings ever take 2/3rds the game completely off like the B's have been doing on a (somewhat) frequent basis?:
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Fundamental


    And is it just me?  Or do they always seem like they are working harder than they should - harder and not smarter.

    The downside is that it wears the team down more, I think the number of injuries can be attributed to this grinding style.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ed121501. Show ed121501's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    Man, it really bothers me when this team pulls a no show like last night. No excuse with all the talent that they have. Last night was a shining example of how to beat a CJ coached team. If not for the solid goaltending I'm pretty sure that this team would be hovering around .500 for the season.
    I see this pattern continuing throughout the season where the B's win their share but ultimately lose to the quicker teams.
    I honestly believe that the Dave Lewis hiring still plays a part in Chiarelli's reluctance to address the obvious coaching issue here. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a coaching change made towards the end of the season. Lou Lammairello let this guy go for a reason. This system will win you a fair share of regular season games but, the playoffs are a different story. I could see a scenario where Milbury was brought in late in the season to provide an emotional boost to the team.  A little "Morgan Magic" anyone ??
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]And is it just me?  Or do they always seem like they are working harder than they should - harder and not smarter. The downside is that it wears the team down more, I think the number of injuries can be attributed to this grinding style.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]


    I do notice sometimes that it seems like bruins work so hard just to get the puck over the redline that it looks painful. Perhaps the obsession with "clogging the neutral zone" when not done correctly or is exploited by the other team that the B's are only clogging up themselves in on the breakout.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jwb413. Show jwb413's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    I'm seeing them getting out hustled 80% of the time. They don't seem to want to get "OUT OF POSITION" to make a play. In the third period it was a combo of Tampa sitting back and the B's pressing. I feel it is team speed where the Bruins are at a deficit and it shows too many times. It's getting old spotting teams the lead and Neely and PC are not blind. Time will be running out if the B's don't get this turned around. By saying turned around you just have to look where they are headed. In the last 10 games they have lost 6. NOT GOOD!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    NAS: I am with you on that. Our designated penalty server should be Seguin -- he won't get PK time and he is a threat coming out of the box.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    I could live with that (Seguin as designated penalty server).

    The working harder thing reminds me of Cherry's comment the other day re: giving guys too little ice time or too much rest.  All the great players would tell you they had their best performances when they were a little tired because they couldn't overdo things.  They didn't have the energy to make one too many dekes or passes etc. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    I think TrytoBearit brings up a really good point that Julien's message sending to the top lines is lost, because he rotates 4 lines pretty much regardless of performance.  If it is a common trend than nobody is going to get a "message" from it.

    I think the breakout is the worst part of the 'system' play.  As mentioned above the Bruins seem to work extremely hard to get the puck out of their zone when they get possession.  Harder than other teams, IMO.

    I think that too much reliance on the 'system' makes them predictable and easy to read.  Tampa's forecheckers and pinching D-man always seemed to be a step ahead of the breakout attempts.  Similarly, Tampa's forwards looked awfully comfortable coasting into the Bruins zone and going wide, knowing that Boston's D would collapse into the middle every time.

    The 'system' is fine most of the time, but it is just getting too predictable.  There needs to be some occasional in-game adjustments to keep opponents guessing a little bit.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    Speaking of fundamentals, someone on this thread or maybe the post-mortem to the TB game remarked on the terrible passing.  More than anything else, this is the ghost in the Bruin machine if you ask me.  They have a few great passers (Krejci, Savard, Bergeron) and a few above average passers (Lucic, Horton, occasionally Recchi), and then a lot of guys who vary widely in the quality of their passing.  The whole defense is in the latter category, as are too many of the wingers.  You give Seguin and Caron a bit of slack as rookies, but they have to learn to pick their spots for the "playmaker" pass.

    Good passes generally start with getting the puck cleanly and getting rid of it quickly as opposed to hanging on to it forever and then making the seeing eye dish.  Look at the Stamkos goal last night.  StL gets the puck, turns and lays a perfect 8 foot pass on Stamkos's stick.  This links to the "work smarter" part of this discussion too - it's the old cliche about letting the puck do the work.  I see too many guys rushing the puck on this team.  It's one reason they get one shot on an un-screening goalie before having to retreat.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bim09. Show bim09's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]I think the breakout is the worst part of the 'system' play.  As mentioned above the Bruins seem to work extremely hard to get the puck out of their zone when they get possession.  Harder than other teams, IMO. I think that too much reliance on the 'system' makes them predictable and easy to read.  Tampa's forecheckers and pinching D-man always seemed to be a step ahead of the breakout attempts.Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]

    The Bruins lack offensive defensemen.  That is the crux of the problem.  The B's need a defensemen comfortable with handling the puck like a Subban or Keith.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fundamental : The Bruins lack offensive defensemen.  That is the crux of the problem.  The B's need a defensemen comfortable with handling the puck like a Subban or Keith.
    Posted by bim09[/QUOTE]

    Subban. Keith.  Those two never belong in the same sentence, unless it is, "Here are two very different players..."
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Fundamental : Thorton - tied for 4th in team scoring, and one of the few guys on the team that actually played in the first and second periods. That was a horrible effort last night from the 'top line' guys. Didn't he score a breakaway goal already this year? Hummmmm Yes he did. A perfect choice.
    Posted by perrysound[/QUOTE]

    I count Thornton as tied for 13th.  What are you talking about?

    Oh, I see, goal scoring.  Yeah, he has four.  Let's put him on the top PP unit.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    I hesitated to respond here as I have a bias against CJs decision making on playing the most skilled players.  BB mentioned in another thread it may be part of a bigger picture that CJ has in mind for the Bs like play-offs, or injuries that may come, or trades that may come that gives a rationale to why he plays the 4th line or makes odd moves as NAS stated in this thread.  I will tell you this a goalie likes repetition or shots on net as opposed to no shots on net.  Why, well the head is into the game when a goalie is taking shots on net.  Then, I ask why is it not the same for the skilled players on offense.  More time on ice will give them more chances to lucidly see patterns to offense and make more creative plays.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    Come on cowboys and pbergeron you guys are smarter than that!  Boucher couldn't believe his eyes when he saw the 4th line on the ice to start the period !!!!  You can say what you want of the 4th line; They are playing well , They are getting the most chances , They're skating well(but not even close to St  Louis or Stamkos ) ,  and I could go on and on ...  Those 3 can't even tie the skates of a Stamkos let alone skate with them !  IT'S A 4TH LINE GUYS ! 
    Sure they can compete with most of the 2nd lines on  2nd tier teams but don;t come and tell me they are the Bruins defensive solution to stop the 1st lines of ANY team especially elite players like , St Louis or Stamkos or Crosby or Ovy !
    The 4th line almost got scored on 3-4 times when they were on the ice.  Just because it didn't go in (and not shown on their +/-) does not mean they played well in their own zone.
    More importantly of the +/- the momentum of the game changes when you get hemmed in into your zone and you saw Marchand make a very bad pass through the middle,  that gave Tampa a scoring chance and then a PP. That was their 1st shift of the 2nd in which they faced off.  NUTS !   
    Let me ask you this,  there was a 2 on 1 with Thorton (Scott that is not Joe) handling the puck, would you have rather have seen , Seguin ?  Krejci ? even Bergy ?  in their place ?
    We all know that play maker Thorton made a horrible pass because that is not his job ! 
    Julien this game got out coached by Boucher. Checkmate.
    Next , move on to Panthers tomorrow night.


    I think for a 4th line the overall picture has been great, but how great is a 4th line supposed to be? There's such a thing as utualizing your assets, but if you don't utualize those assets properly, they're no longer assets. CJ is over using the 4th line in critical situations where they have no business being used! NAS is bang on the money! Thorton had no business being in the box when the B's are down! In 95% of most hockey teams the THIRD LINE is the CHECKING LINE! Is Bergy not the best two-way center on the team? Is he not called a two-way center because he has assets in both ends of the rink? With Stamkos & St.Louis skating they way they were last night. Would it not been a better choice to have your best two-way centerman playing against the line that was making monkey's of your team in the previous period? CJ is over staying his welcome with his no panic, no change, no calling time-outs, robotic, no emotion system! In another thread I started I said the B's haven't played that well this season. It's been Rask & TT the only reason they're where they are!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Fundamental


    The B's need a defensemen comfortable with handling the puck like a Subban or Keith.
    -Bim09

    Subban. Keith.  Those two never belong in the same sentence, unless it is, "Here are two very different players...
    -
    NAS

    Not even in the same universe! Subban is a punk & I agree with Mike Richards. Somebody will catch him with his head down & it'll be a great day in hockey. Too bad he & Lappierre couldn't have it happen on the same shift! Well maybe someone will give me my miracle christmas!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]Speaking of fundamentals, someone on this thread or maybe the post-mortem to the TB game remarked on the terrible passing.  More than anything else, this is the ghost in the Bruin machine if you ask me.  They have a few great passers (Krejci, Savard, Bergeron) and a few above average passers (Lucic, Horton, occasionally Recchi), and then a lot of guys who vary widely in the quality of their passing.  The whole defense is in the latter category, as are too many of the wingers.  You give Seguin and Caron a bit of slack as rookies, but they have to learn to pick their spots for the "playmaker" pass. Good passes generally start with getting the puck cleanly and getting rid of it quickly as opposed to hanging on to it forever and then making the seeing eye dish.  Look at the Stamkos goal last night.  StL gets the puck, turns and lays a perfect 8 foot pass on Stamkos's stick.  This links to the "work smarter" part of this discussion too - it's the old cliche about letting the puck do the work.  I see too many guys rushing the puck on this team.  It's one reason they get one shot on an un-screening goalie before having to retreat.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]
    The biggest thing I'm seeing is the forwards staying too high in the defensive zone,making for a more difficult breakout.The gamble is that if they can chip the puck past the pinching D they'll have an odd-man rush but too often these little chip passes are being picked off and sent back towards the net.Even Lucic was guilty last night of making weak little chip passes rather than hard out off the boards.It's an unfortunate result of the ease with which they moved the puck in previous games leading to bad habits.Hard work will solve most of the issues right now.If it doesn't then maybe the coach will have to go.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    This discussion reminds me of a blog post made by Dupont.  In it, he commented on Seguin playing on the fourth line (then with Ryder and Paille, I think?).  Naturally, everyone jumped on him, saying that the Marchand-Campbell-Thornton line was the fourth line.  He justified his earlier statement by saying that the MCT line was being used as a match-up line, and that traditionally that meant it should be called the third line.

    Perhaps that's the real problem here.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Fundamental

    In Response to Re: Fundamental:
    [QUOTE]This discussion reminds me of a blog post made by Dupont.  In it, he commented on Seguin playing on the fourth line (then with Ryder and Paille, I think?).  Naturally, everyone jumped on him, saying that the Marchand-Campbell-Thornton line was the fourth line.  He justified his earlier statement by saying that the MCT line was being used as a match-up line, and that traditionally that meant it should be called the third line. Perhaps that's the real problem here.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    If Shawn Thornton isn't on the fourth line, the team is so broken that Toe Blake couldn't coach it to a playoff berth.
     

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