Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

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    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    No, it's not flat out wrong. Saying a player is good enough for an older group does not mean they are too good for their own age group. There are examples of players who have played with older players and succeded. There are countless examples of exceptional hockey talents who were placed in advanced age groups and were not mature enough for it. We talk about rushing players to the NHL causing failure all the time - the problem is greatly magnified when you are talking about children.

    My fundamental point in that post is, however, simply that players are not hurt by playing with their own age group. Gretzky and other may have continued to excel playing with older kids, but my feeling is that they would have developed just fine if they were not rushed. In your specific examples, Gretz played Junior B, not major junior, as a 15 year old, and I think Eric Lindros would have been much better off if he were allowed to grow up more in his youth and not rushed along. I don't think he was ever mentally ready for the NHL and adult life in general (his neighbours today say he still acts like a 40 year old child).

    And no, I don't think the choice should belong with the child an their parents. Are we going to allow 14 year olds? Really big and talented 9 year olds? Lots of kids and parents lack good judgement. Maybe you would be OK with your 15 year old son or daughter living and working and hanging out with 20 year olds. I would not. I think the league should protect 15 year olds whose parents are too star struck by the idea of their kid being the next Crosby to show good judgement.

     

    Sorry Oates but when you make a statement like that I'm going to need you to provide some examples of players who were rushed into junior too early and suffered as a result. Those players I mentioned that had success were just a few of many but I can't think of too many whose development was stunted. Also, I disagree with your assertion that parents need to be saved from themselves regarding how they raise their kids. Just because it's not how you'd raise your kid doesn't make it wrong. The whole age group/maturity thing doesn't fly with me. Some kids are exceptionally advanced for their age. Why should a kid who thinks the game at an advanced level be treated so differently than say a chess or musical prodigy? Not all kids are the same so I don't see the point in trying to paint them all with the same brush.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    Great contribution!



    ^^^In your face Oates^^^ Well said Dez!! 






As good as any of the garbage your protesting on the subject! Here let me tweet for you. 

At-sign pansy, right?

 
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Two things are missing here Oates.  Preface: I enjoy your posts.  One the parents are responsible for saying yes to participation.  The OHL is responsible for granting exemptions.  Body mass, skills, and genetics aside, I agree with your premise that even if ready a young players should not be granted permission to play above his "paygrade" if you will.  Emotional development is as important as skill.  As a teacher, I had a national merit scholar in my AP USHistory class, he went on to Williams College magna cum(BDC police word) laude, but his emotional development was never considered.  He is in limbo now, I am not worried in the long run but his growth was stunded by the notriety being intelligent.  Now back to hockey, if Seguin was playing at 18; he, his parents, the Bruins organization and et al all considered his emotional, phsyical and skill level. Just like my former student who I think alot of, Seguin deserves to be hit by Pronger.  I do not know McDavid, nor do you, so my point is still valid.  He needs realize he is in a different league.  Hamilton was just reacting as a hockey player.  

    In addition, I do believe in a common respect by the players for others who play the sport.  Yet, hockey is a sport whereby younger players are pushed to excel.  The powers to be must use extreme caution to sanction a 15 year old to play beyond his age group.  My guess is the topic is not about Hamilton. It is about McDavid whose mentors did him an injustice to be in the league under the false premise he would be honored by older players. Money suckks the life out of thinking.  

    Finally I am not a believer in the honor of the sport with regard to fighting.  I am also not in the honor of the sport that allows abilities of a player to be granted "room" or "entitilement" because they are making vulnerable hockey moves as a youngster.  The analogies in the real world abound, the hockey world is not different even though just because it is in the limelight of media attention.  Seguin would be deserving to be hit, so does McDavid.  if one is to use an honor code or sympthetic cord of injustice, entitlement is the first thought.  So many people at 15 or even 18 need mentorship.  Humanitarian deeds are done before placing one in harms way.  

    I do not expect a response.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    We talk about rushing players to the NHL causing failure all the time - the problem is greatly magnified when you are talking about children.

    And no, I don't think the choice should belong with the child an their parents. Are we going to allow 14 year olds? Really big and talented 9 year olds? Lots of kids and parents lack good judgement. Maybe you would be OK with your 15 year old son or daughter living and working and hanging out with 20 year olds. I would not. I think the league should protect 15 year olds whose parents are too star struck by the idea of their kid being the next Crosby to show good judgement.



    And why I don't like the fact that the kid was even playing.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from matttt87. Show matttt87's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    If you aren't ready, don't play. If you are ready, don't expect the game to change because of you.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from lambda13. Show lambda13's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to lambda13's comment:


    So you think that in someone's first NHL game they should give him a break? Maybe in every rookie's first game they should let him score a goal. Yeah! That's a great idea. All together now... "I love you, you love me..." NAS the way you formulate your opinions seem to be to the tune of how can I get as many people jacked-up as possible. You have to see the flaw in your argument that because Hamilton should have been aware that one of the best players on the opposing team was just 15 years old and was trying everything in his power to score that he should just take it easy on him. Would you want Hamilton to take it easy on littler guys at the NHL level? Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does.




    We aren't talking about the NHL, so this entire paragraph is moo (cow's opinion).

     



    We're talking competitive hockey. Remove NHL substitute OHL, KHL, AHL, who cares. Stop nit-picking and admit that you're wrong. No one deserves special treatment. This everybody wins attitude is horse duty. Kid should keep his head up. He didn't and got his clock cleaned with a legal body check. Tough luck.

    Moo-ving on, I don't want any player that I'm going to be cheering for practicing the idea that if the guy you are going against is smaller you should let up so that you don't hurt him. I wouldn't want any player to let up on a check or a play unless its to avoid injuring themselves. As long as the play is legal, play on.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    For me, this debate brings to mind Tristan Llewellyn, who was a very highly touted defensemen who committed to Michigan at age 14.  At 15 he joined the Indiana Ice of the USHL and was the youngest player in the league.  Somehow, he was drawn into a fight and was brutally beaten to the tune of a shattered orbital bone.  So now, you've got a 15 year old kid with a concussion and broken face.  It's not right, and he never should have been there.  And, there are some indications that it ruined his career.  He had an average run through juniors and Michigan and is now bouncing between the ECHL and the CHL.

    That said, I don't blame Hamilton one bit for the hit.  He has to treat all opponents the same and can't be checking numbers and doing age calculations while he plays.  I agree with others that the kid shouldn't have been out there in the first place.  The physical gap between 15 and 18 is pretty significant.  It won't kill the kid to play with his peers for another year or two.

    Another side note -- Steve Sullivan is listed at 155 to 160 and has had a long NHL career.  But it's different when thy're all men playing the NHL game.  Sullivan and others like him know how to protect themselves from bigger opponents.  A 15 year old that is thrown into major junior might not.  Just ask Tristan Llewellyn.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from lambda13. Show lambda13's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    For me, this debate brings to mind Tristan Llewellyn, who was a very highly touted defensemen who committed to Michigan at age 14.  At 15 he joined the Indiana Ice of the USHL and was the youngest player in the league.  Somehow, he was drawn into a fight and was brutally beaten to the tune of a shattered orbital bone.  So now, you've got a 15 year old kid with a concussion and broken face.  It's not right, and he never should have been there.  And, there are some indications that it ruined his career.  He had an average run through juniors and Michigan and is now bouncing between the ECHL and the CHL.

    That said, I don't blame Hamilton one bit for the hit.  He has to treat all opponents the same and can't be checking numbers and doing age calculations while he plays.  I agree with others that the kid shouldn't have been out there in the first place.  The physical gap between 15 and 18 is pretty significant.  It won't kill the kid to play with his peers for another year or two.

    Another side note -- Steve Sullivan is listed at 155 to 160 and has had a long NHL career.  But it's different when thy're all men playing the NHL game.  Sullivan and others like him know how to protect themselves from bigger opponents.  A 15 year old that is thrown into major junior might not.  Just ask Tristan Llewellyn.




    Great post Fletcher. The onus (see what I did there?) should not be put on Hamilton to make a mental decision to treat the kid differently, the league is responsible.

    Getting drawn into a fight as a kid like the one you mentioned makes it his own darn fault. No one is forced to fight, this isn't Fight Club haha.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to islamorada's comment:

    Two things are missing here Oates.  Preface: I enjoy your posts.  One the parents are responsible for saying yes to participation.  The OHL is responsible for granting exemptions.  Body mass, skills, and genetics aside, I agree with your premise that even if ready a young players should not be granted permission to play above his "paygrade" if you will.  Emotional development is as important as skill.  As a teacher, I had a national merit scholar in my AP USHistory class, he went on to Williams College magna cum(BDC police word) laude, but his emotional development was never considered.  He is in limbo now, I am not worried in the long run but his growth was stunded by the notriety being intelligent.  Now back to hockey, if Seguin was playing at 18; he, his parents, the Bruins organization and et al all considered his emotional, phsyical and skill level. Just like my former student who I think alot of, Seguin deserves to be hit by Pronger.  I do not know McDavid, nor do you, so my point is still valid.  He needs realize he is in a different league.  Hamilton was just reacting as a hockey player.  

    In addition, I do believe in a common respect by the players for others who play the sport.  Yet, hockey is a sport whereby younger players are pushed to excel.  The powers to be must use extreme caution to sanction a 15 year old to play beyond his age group.  My guess is the topic is not about Hamilton. It is about McDavid whose mentors did him an injustice to be in the league under the false premise he would be honored by older players. Money suckks the life out of thinking.  

    Finally I am not a believer in the honor of the sport with regard to fighting.  I am also not in the honor of the sport that allows abilities of a player to be granted "room" or "entitilement" because they are making vulnerable hockey moves as a youngster.  The analogies in the real world abound, the hockey world is not different even though just because it is in the limelight of media attention.  Seguin would be deserving to be hit, so does McDavid.  if one is to use an honor code or sympthetic cord of injustice, entitlement is the first thought.  So many people at 15 or even 18 need mentorship.  Humanitarian deeds are done before placing one in harms way.  

    I do not expect a response.  



    Respect your post Is. I do have a question. Shouldn't certain things be judged as an individual & not in an age group? Is there no possibility that you could've taught someone with the same intelligence as the student you mentioned, but able to handle the situation not only differently, but better? I mean it's not like McDavid got hurt on the play. He ended up with a goal & assist. Seems the only people making a big deal out of this are the people on this board.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Clean hit?  Then it's a hockey play.  Play hockey or don't.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Clean hit?  Then it's a hockey play.  Play hockey or don't.



    Well said. And in only 11 words.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Yup, me guess NAS is correct with one line quips.  I was being verbose. 

    A sabbatical is needed until this lockout stuff is worked out.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Clean hit?  Then it's a hockey play.  Play hockey or don't.



    Well said. And in only 11 words.



    : )

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Now, the novel....

    I was reminded of this by an Alan Muir piece on SI, but I think it's pretty common practice to welcome high profile rookies into the league like this.  You know, take them down a peg and let them know where they are.  Cleanly, but with "malice aforethought."  It's a practice with a function, too - McDavid now knows that the consequences of not keeping his head up or getting stuck on the tracks aren't trivial in the OHL.  He's got the skills to learn that lesson and adapt quickly.

    The decision on letting him play has to include this.  If you're David Branch or whoever is finally signing off, you have to know there will be people looking to blow him up (or who will have the chance and take it), so you have to look at his physical maturity at 15 and ask if he can take a whollop from Doug Hamilton or a Jamie Oleksiak or any of the other kids in Major Junior who were 6'3" when they were 15 and have added 30lbs of muscle since.  Because there will also be a number of kids who have a lot of skill but a lot of growing still to do at 16 who will be drafted into the leagues, and they either will be sent to Jr. A because they aren't strong enough or big enough despite their talent, or they will play 4min/night.

    At the far end, you have the Yannick Riendeau factor (how long before that reference and the whole discussion around it is too deep in the archives for the majority of posters to follow?).  Guys who look like world-beaters because they have a man's body and strength in a league of teenagers, and add four years of experience to the mix.  These differentials will always exist in a league of kids between 16-20.  Genetics say so.

    So ultimately, you're left with the choice: play hockey, or don't.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Now, the novel....

    I was reminded of this by an Alan Muir piece on SI, but I think it's pretty common practice to welcome high profile rookies into the league like this.  You know, take them down a peg and let them know where they are.  Cleanly, but with "malice aforethought."  It's a practice with a function, too - McDavid now knows that the consequences of not keeping his head up or getting stuck on the tracks aren't trivial in the OHL.  He's got the skills to learn that lesson and adapt quickly.

    The decision on letting him play has to include this.  If you're David Branch or whoever is finally signing off, you have to know there will be people looking to blow him up (or who will have the chance and take it), so you have to look at his physical maturity at 15 and ask if he can take a whollop from Doug Hamilton or a Jamie Oleksiak or any of the other kids in Major Junior who were 6'3" when they were 15 and have added 30lbs of muscle since.  Because there will also be a number of kids who have a lot of skill but a lot of growing still to do at 16 who will be drafted into the leagues, and they either will be sent to Jr. A because they aren't strong enough or big enough despite their talent, or they will play 4min/night.

    At the far end, you have the Yannick Riendeau factor (how long before that reference and the whole discussion around it is too deep in the archives for the majority of posters to follow?).  Guys who look like world-beaters because they have a man's body and strength in a league of teenagers, and add four years of experience to the mix.  These differentials will always exist in a league of kids between 16-20.  Genetics say so.

    So ultimately, you're left with the choice: play hockey, or don't.



    You know Book, I think it's a common practice in the NHL too, and not just among opponents. Lots of young players are physically welcomed to the bigs by teammates in training camp. As I stated earlier, Hamilton would be doing McDavid no favours in the long run by easing up on him. Perhaps if Lindros had someone big enough to teach him a lesson in junior then he may have learned to keep his head up by the time he made it to The Show.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Now, the novel....

    I was reminded of this by an Alan Muir piece on SI, but I think it's pretty common practice to welcome high profile rookies into the league like this.  You know, take them down a peg and let them know where they are.  Cleanly, but with "malice aforethought."  It's a practice with a function, too - McDavid now knows that the consequences of not keeping his head up or getting stuck on the tracks aren't trivial in the OHL.  He's got the skills to learn that lesson and adapt quickly.

    The decision on letting him play has to include this.  If you're David Branch or whoever is finally signing off, you have to know there will be people looking to blow him up (or who will have the chance and take it), so you have to look at his physical maturity at 15 and ask if he can take a whollop from Doug Hamilton or a Jamie Oleksiak or any of the other kids in Major Junior who were 6'3" when they were 15 and have added 30lbs of muscle since.  Because there will also be a number of kids who have a lot of skill but a lot of growing still to do at 16 who will be drafted into the leagues, and they either will be sent to Jr. A because they aren't strong enough or big enough despite their talent, or they will play 4min/night.

    At the far end, you have the Yannick Riendeau factor (how long before that reference and the whole discussion around it is too deep in the archives for the majority of posters to follow?).  Guys who look like world-beaters because they have a man's body and strength in a league of teenagers, and add four years of experience to the mix.  These differentials will always exist in a league of kids between 16-20.  Genetics say so.

    So ultimately, you're left with the choice: play hockey, or don't.



    You know Book, I think it's a common practice in the NHL too, and not just among opponents. Lots of young players are physically welcomed to the bigs by teammates in training camp. As I stated earlier, Hamilton would be doing McDavid no favours in the long run by easing up on him. Perhaps if Lindros had someone big enough to teach him a lesson in junior then he may have learned to keep his head up by the time he made it to The Show.


    I think the only good thing that I seen Lindros do was rock Ulf Samulsson in the 91' Canada Cup. I had no respect & no pity on the guy after what he pulled on the Grey Hounds & the Nords! Sorry off topic I know, but whenever I see this loser's name that's all I can think about. And I wish Brett could've gave his brother some class.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Big Bad Dougie

    Should be in the NHL right now, but is sent to juniors because of the lockout.

    Knock that 15-year-old into tomorrow, Dougie.  Help him.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Big Bad Dougie

    Should be in the NHL right now, but is sent to juniors because of the lockout.

    Knock that 15-year-old into tomorrow, Dougie.  Help him.




    Why should he be in the NHL right now? Does everyone else graduate to the NHL at 19? Don't forget Dougie's also just a teenager. Your attempts to dismiss his talent since draft day is laughable, especially considering your total lack of exposure to his play. The funniest thing is that you'd be the 1st one to have called him out if the tables were turned and Dougie got schooled 1 on 1 by a 15 year old. Your arguments against Hamilton have been weak from the start and haven't got any stronger. Give it up already because just like your first love Marchand, Dougie's going to be around Boston for awhile.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Big Bad Dougie

    Should be in the NHL right now, but is sent to juniors because of the lockout.

    Knock that 15-year-old into tomorrow, Dougie.  Help him.




    Why should he be in the NHL right now? Does everyone else graduate to the NHL at 19? Don't forget Dougie's also just a teenager. Your attempts to dismiss his talent since draft day is laughable, especially considering your total lack of exposure to his play. The funniest thing is that you'd be the 1st one to have called him out if the tables were turned and Dougie got schooled 1 on 1 by a 15 year old. Your arguments against Hamilton have been weak from the start and haven't got any stronger. Give it up already because just like your first love Marchand, Dougie's going to be around Boston for awhile.



    But Dez, teams shouldn't draft defencemen nor goalies in the first round. Therefore Hamilton and Subban are included in on the hate list. 

    The lumping factor at work again creating the contrarian point of view.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Last night had the pleasure of again watching the 15 year old McDavid play. He was by far the most talented and exciting player to watch. The kid made a lot of older players look silly. Great speed and vision.

    He was slippery avoiding hits too. What a bunch of mean players for wanting to play the game of hockey and deliver hits to a 15 year old. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Good thread.

    I haven't jumped on Junior hockey yet this season.  Hope to catch some soon and see Hamilton dominate (and should at this point).  Also would like to see this kid, McDavid , just hope the lockout will speed up my access to Junior hocky on cable.

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    Regarding 15 year old McDavid playing with older players in the OHL, anyone catch an Erie game yet ? 

    Some comments were just a little off on " the too young " type of thinking . The kid has adjusted to the speed and physicality of playing with older players. 

    He deserves to playing where he is because of his exceptional talents. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:

    Regarding 15 year old McDavid playing with older players in the OHL, anyone catch an Erie game yet ? 

    Some comments were just a little off on " the too young " type of thinking . The kid has adjusted to the speed and physicality of playing with older players. 

    He deserves to playing where he is because of his exceptional talents. 




    I don't doubt this.  The people who put him there obviously put plenty of thought into it before bringing him up.  If he's good enough, let him rise.  Gretzky played against 10 year olds when he was six.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hamilton Rocks McDavid !

    I'd have liked to see him live, but rarely get to see Western Conference teams.  Probably catch him on the tube in the new year when Eastern teams visit Erie.

    As for Hamilton splattering him - I think there's a continuum here and not a binary.  At one end is holding a parade for Hamilton for laying a big hit, in the middle is "it's hockey" so no buttons for Hamilton for making a clean hit and no white tag sales for poor McDavid, and on the far end is alarmism about this kid playing with bigger kids.  I honestly think this has nothing to do with Hamilton other than a very talented kid learned what it's like to play against a very talented top NHL prospect who might have been looking to lay that hit on Daniel Briere or Tyler Ennis on that day if things had gone differently.

     
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