Hart Trophy Candidates

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to Klaas's comment:


     


    True, but I think voters always consider point totals when voting on any award.

     



    Moulson's only 5 points back of Kane (on a worse team) and has fewer PIM's, though maginally. He definitely needs to be mentioned with Kane, as does Letang with only 8 PIM while being second in D scoring. An argument could be made for Matt Carle as well. Kane's certainly not a slamdunk for the Byng.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    The question re: "What if he didn't play for the team then where would they be?"  always comes up in these debates.  However, it cannot be measured in this way despite the sentiment.  If you are a deserving player and your team is also great, then you should not be penalized because you are on a great team.   

    Plus, we don't really know the true impact to that team if the deserving player was missing.  For example, could the Islanders still win without Tavares? (Dallas and Buffalo are still winning after shedding many of it's "best" players)  Or maybe Moulson and Streit are a good enough supporting cast to compare him to Ovechkin or Toews?    As far as Bobrosky is concerned, maybe the young players in front of him are severely underestimated.   It's too murky with the "what if" hypothesis. What if a Florida player registered 50 goals and the team still had that poor record?  It's possible.   Not likely, but possible.  The measure of the success of the team must be considered and Chicago has been off the charts this year in this regard.   Chicago is having a record setting season in more than one way and Toews has been their best player with Kane a close second.  

     

     

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to lucdufour's comment:

    The question re: "What if he didn't play for the team then where would they be?"  always comes up in these debates.  However, it cannot be measured in this way despite the sentiment.  If you are a deserving player and your team is also great, then you should not be penalized because you are on a great team.   

    Plus, we don't really know the true impact to that team if the deserving player was missing.  For example, could the Islanders still win without Tavares? (Dallas and Buffalo are still winning after shedding many of it's "best" players)  Or maybe Moulson and Streit are a good enough supporting cast to compare him to Ovechkin or Toews?    As far as Bobrosky is concerned, maybe the young players in front of him are severely underestimated.   It's too murky with the "what if" hypothesis. What if a Florida player registered 50 goals and the team still had that poor record?  It's possible.   Not likely, but possible.  The measure of the success of the team must be considered and Chicago has been off the charts this year in this regard.   Chicago is having a record setting season in more than one way and Toews has been their best player with Kane a close second.  

     

     

     

     




    There's no "what if" with Crosby though Luc. The Pens still win most games without him in the lineup.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    Tavares looked so darn good against the Leafs the other night, he is going to be difficult to contain in the playoffs. Ovechkin's numbers since mid-march have been outstanding and he has helped push Washington into third place, this will hold a ton of weight for voters.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    Good point, Dez.

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to lucdufour's comment:

     

    The question re: "What if he didn't play for the team then where would they be?"  always comes up in these debates.  However, it cannot be measured in this way despite the sentiment.  If you are a deserving player and your team is also great, then you should not be penalized because you are on a great team.   

    Plus, we don't really know the true impact to that team if the deserving player was missing.  For example, could the Islanders still win without Tavares? (Dallas and Buffalo are still winning after shedding many of it's "best" players)  Or maybe Moulson and Streit are a good enough supporting cast to compare him to Ovechkin or Toews?    As far as Bobrosky is concerned, maybe the young players in front of him are severely underestimated.   It's too murky with the "what if" hypothesis. What if a Florida player registered 50 goals and the team still had that poor record?  It's possible.   Not likely, but possible.  The measure of the success of the team must be considered and Chicago has been off the charts this year in this regard.   Chicago is having a record setting season in more than one way and Toews has been their best player with Kane a close second.  

     

     

     

     

     




    There's no "what if" with Crosby though Luc. The Pens still win most games without him in the lineup.

     




     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to red75's comment:

    In response to Klaas's comment:

     


     


    True, but I think voters always consider point totals when voting on any award.

     

     



    Moulson's only 5 points back of Kane (on a worse team) and has fewer PIM's, though maginally. He definitely needs to be mentioned with Kane, as does Letang with only 8 PIM while being second in D scoring. An argument could be made for Matt Carle as well. Kane's certainly not a slamdunk for the Byng.

     


    The only reason why Kane would not be a slum dunk for the Byng is because he's a brat. However, as Luc and others have mentioned, Kane has been a big reason for the Hawks best NHL record, which should help his case.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    In response to lucdufour's comment:

     

    The question re: "What if he didn't play for the team then where would they be?"  always comes up in these debates.  However, it cannot be measured in this way despite the sentiment.  If you are a deserving player and your team is also great, then you should not be penalized because you are on a great team.   

    Plus, we don't really know the true impact to that team if the deserving player was missing.  For example, could the Islanders still win without Tavares? (Dallas and Buffalo are still winning after shedding many of it's "best" players)  Or maybe Moulson and Streit are a good enough supporting cast to compare him to Ovechkin or Toews?    As far as Bobrosky is concerned, maybe the young players in front of him are severely underestimated.   It's too murky with the "what if" hypothesis. What if a Florida player registered 50 goals and the team still had that poor record?  It's possible.   Not likely, but possible.  The measure of the success of the team must be considered and Chicago has been off the charts this year in this regard.   Chicago is having a record setting season in more than one way and Toews has been their best player with Kane a close second.  


    There's no "what if" with Crosby though Luc. The Pens still win most games without him in the lineup.

     



    The problem with this, though, is that you punish Crosby for being on the same team as Malkin, Neal etc.  With that logic, a lot of top players would be handicapped for the Hart - Gretzky should never have won it because, if you took him off those Oiler teams, they'd still have been a major contender.  Okay, that's probably a bit of an exaggeration in retrospect because they were more than a major contender - they were like a mountain in the road for anyone else in the 80s.  Should never have lost to Calgary in '86.  There has to be a way to measure Crosby's value beyond the difference between the Pens with him and without him.  Same thing with Toews, but that might be simply the difference between being a contender and being far and away the best team in the west this year.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    In response to lucdufour's comment:

     



    There's no "what if" with Crosby though Luc. The Pens still win most games without him in the lineup.

     

     



    The problem with this, though, is that you punish Crosby for being on the same team as Malkin, Neal etc.  With that logic, a lot of top players would be handicapped for the Hart - Gretzky should never have won it because, if you took him off those Oiler teams, they'd still have been a major contender.  Okay, that's probably a bit of an exaggeration in retrospect because they were more than a major contender - they were like a mountain in the road for anyone else in the 80s.  Should never have lost to Calgary in '86.  There has to be a way to measure Crosby's value beyond the difference between the Pens with him and without him.  Same thing with Toews, but that might be simply the difference between being a contender and being far and away the best team in the west this year.

     

     




    The best player can still win the Pearson. But then I can also see the logic in a guy like Bobrovsky being a Hart candidate while not winning the Vezina. By it's very definition, I think the Hart should go to the guy who makes the biggest difference.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    See, I think what you're describing is more the definition of the performance rather than player.  If the value is located in the player (in a team sport...), then it should be transferrable from team to team with the player. 

    I'm sort of thinking of something like this: if you put player X on the average team in the NHL, how much better would they be?  Right now, the median team is Columbus.  So how much better would Columbus be with Sidney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, or Alex Ovechkin?  Would they be "more better" than they would be worse without Bobrovsky?  In terms of their current scoring leaders, you'd be replacing Mike Letestu with Crosby or Toews.  Your first line would now be Crosby between Gaborik and Prospal.  You're replacing a guy who scores about .53 points per game with a guy who scores 1.56 points per game, and that's playing with comparable linemates, though Gaborik's skill level is higher than Kunitz or Dupuis.  If you see that as an extra goal/game for the team, Columbus has lost 14 of 27 1 goal games this year.  Even if you only give them 7 extra points for the 1 goal regulation losses getting to OT, you'd be moving them up to 6th overall in the league, right behind the Bruins, and ahead of the Kings.  That's value.

    Anyway, it's not perfect, but I think it deals with this abstract "player value" better than just "boy, if they didn't have that guy, they'd be nothin'".

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrHulot. Show MrHulot's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    The Bruins wouldn't have made the playoffs without Patrice Bergeron. He's been doing it all this year: scoring, playing great two-way hockey, killing penalties, winning face-offs galore, etc.

    Certainly not a flashy choice like Ovechkin, Tavares or Cindy. But he's the Bruins MVP hands down.

    I never thought that "Sideshow Bobrovsky" would be this good. He would get my non-Homer vote.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    I love the case for Tavares people are making here, couldn't agree more. Pittsburgh without Crosby would still be a playoff team, but with him, they are an elite team. Had he been healthy this whole time who knows what their record would be. But, you can be certain that the point differential between him and the second leading scorer would be too significant to ignore. I think thats MVP worthy also.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    I love the case for Tavares people are making here, couldn't agree more. Pittsburgh without Crosby would still be a playoff team, but with him, they are an elite team. Had he been healthy this whole time who knows what their record would be. But, you can be certain that the point differential between him and the second leading scorer would be too significant to ignore. I think thats MVP worthy also.




    It's tough to say whether Crosby could've sustained his pace for a full season. I just know that we also need to take the importance of games into account. Fair or not, Tavares should benefit from the fact that he's actually upped his performance during his team's battle for a playoff spot. He's been a big game player since he was just a kid. I love the way he plays and that he also keeps his trap shut.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    The thing about the Penguins is that without only Crosby, the Penguins are still a very good team. Ditto argument without Malkin. In summary, without either Crosby or Malkin (but not both), the Penguins are a very good team. But with both Crosby and Malkin healthy, that team is very scary. Of course only Crosby will get MVP consideration ... dumb.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    "if" crosby stays healthy he wins in landslide.  Im siding with dez on tavares.  Hes been outstanding.  If tavares was in pitt and crosby was in ny i think pitt i dont think the drop off would be much for either team.  I think tavares would obviously benefit from having a deep roster.  

    No one is debating sid as being the best.  I think tavares is more valuable to his team then anyone in the league.  As dez pointed out pitt can and does survive without sid, in fact malkin plays better without him.  

     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to seobrien's comment:



    "We need a cop thats gonna play by the rules...You're off the case, Bobrovsky!!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksb7UlwCIKQ



    This video, along with Chris Berman, is exactly why I haven't watched SportsCenter in 10 years.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    A couple points that seem to be opposite, are really in play here.  Yes, the Hart is about the player who is most valuable to his team....not the best player.  However, that abstract, subjective part is in there too.  The voters really are heavily influenced by points, and I'd suggest history shows, the trophy usually goes to whose considered the best player.  Great arguments for Tavares, and I agree with them, but i'd bet on Ovechkin if the Caps get in.  A healthy Crosby, and it's just a formality.

    Based on the overall concept and spirit of the Hart, I think there's a real good example right here on the Bruins.  When you think of the negative associated with the loss of just 1 single player,(and the opposite potential when he's in the lineup) I can't think of a single team that would be any more screwed, than the Bruins, without Chara.  I think his overall contribution to the success of the Bruins, is hopelessly underrated.  Their whole system is flucked without 33.  Their GAA skyrockets, without 33.  I think they'd have a really difficult time even qualifying for the playoffs in a year without Chara.

    Subjective opinion only, and I'm sure it would never happen

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    A couple points that seem to be opposite, are really in play here.  Yes, the Hart is about the player who is most valuable to his team....not the best player.  However, that abstract, subjective part is in there too.  The voters really are heavily influenced by points, and I'd suggest history shows, the trophy usually goes to whose considered the best player.  Great arguments for Tavares, and I agree with them, but i'd bet on Ovechkin if the Caps get in.  A healthy Crosby, and it's just a formality.

    Based on the overall concept and spirit of the Hart, I think there's a real good example right here on the Bruins.  When you think of the negative associated with the loss of just 1 single player,(and the opposite potential when he's in the lineup) I can't think of a single team that would be any more screwed, than the Bruins, without Chara.  I think his overall contribution to the success of the Bruins, is hopelessly underrated.  Their whole system is flucked without 33.  Their GAA skyrockets, without 33.  I think they'd have a really difficult time even qualifying for the playoffs in a year without Chara.

    Subjective opinion only, and I'm sure it would never happen

     



    Ive stated numerous times the same thing about chara.  take him outta the bruins lineup and our backend isnt very good.  

    To me tavares is my pick.  I love ovie.  but tavares is a quiet superstar who kinda reminds me of sakic or even more like yzerman   

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    i've stated numerous times the same thing about chara.  take him outta the bruins lineup and our backend isnt very good.  

     

    To me tavares is my pick.  I love ovie.  but tavares is a quiet superstar who kinda reminds me of sakic or even more like yzerman   




    no argument here, except the fact that I'm not that enamoured with Ovie's IQ....actually ,fairly critical of it.  Always been, always will be, a huge fan of anyone who plays the game...thinks the game....and conducts themselves within the game... like Tavares/Sakic/Yzerman.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Hart Trophy Candidates

    I think Ovechkin will get it but Sid had it wrapped till he got hurt.

     

Share