How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

     

    Davey, slo mo distorts it.  He has him lined up until the last move Zednik makes, and it's all rapido rapido.

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!



    Book, his arm was out and completely horizontal across his face. Its hard to put all the blame on Zednik.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to DaveyN's comment:

    You should watch it again and in slow motion if you can.  No attempt to make contact with the body, McClarren clearly hold his arm out and goes right for Zedniks head.




    At 1:21 left in the third, Zednik is outside of the zone.  At 1:19, McLaren drills him at the top of the circle.  Suggesting that he was so quick to make everything happen and intentionally try to elbow Zednik in the head (because he was being a hot dog...LOL) is giving him a ton of credit. 

    (Please note:  I've discussed this hit in depth for over a decade.)  McLaren has him lined up and at the last second, Zednik puts on a nice little shift left.  McLaren is now out of position to make a quality check.  Instinctly, he sticks out his arm to impede forward progress.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to DaveyN's comment:

     

    You should watch it again and in slow motion if you can.  No attempt to make contact with the body, McClarren clearly hold his arm out and goes right for Zedniks head.

     




    At 1:21 left in the third, Zednik is outside of the zone.  At 1:19, McLaren drills him at the top of the circle.  Suggesting that he was so quick to make everything happen and intentionally try to elbow Zednik in the head (because he was being a hot dog...LOL) is giving him a ton of credit. 

     

    (Please note:  I've discussed this hit in depth for over a decade.)  McLaren has him lined up and at the last second, Zednik puts on a nice little shift left.  McLaren is now out of position to make a quality check.  Instinctly, he sticks out his arm to impede forward progress.



    and that is where it becomes a dirty hit.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    I'm back to "it was Zedniks fault", my memory was just fine. Zednik tried to make that last second dangle and Bango,lights out.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to DaveyN's comment:

    and that is where it becomes a dirty hit.



    This is a clear cut headshot.  There is no question about that.  I don't think it was intentional.  I can't imagine how anyone could think it was considering the speed of the play and the last millisecond shift by Zednik.

    Saying McLaren goes right for the head is careless at least.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    But a player is allowed to do that, you arent allowed to clothesline a player. It was stupid of Zednik to do, sure. But that doesnt mean that since McClaren got burnt, he can clothesline him.

    Im sure he had no ill intent and just wanted to do what he could to stop him, but what he ended up doing was dirty in my opinion.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    In response to DaveyN's comment:

     

     

     

    and that is where it becomes a dirty hit.

     

     



    This is a clear cut headshot.  There is no question about that.  I don't think it was intentional.  I can't imagine how anyone could think it was considering the speed of the play and the last millisecond shift by Zednik.

     

     

    Saying McLaren goes right for the head is careless at least.

     



    You are right there and i was wrong in what i said. I should have phrased that better. Im sure he didnt try to decapitate him and was just trying to impede progress like you said, but the end result was a bad hit.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

    I'm back to "it was Zedniks fault", my memory was just fine. Zednik tried to make that last second dangle and Bango,lights out.




    I don't think it was either player's fault, per se.  McLaren bears the burden because he did create the collision, but it was just a hockey play that ended badly in my book.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Let me be more specific, as the Police Power boys are seeking the loopholes.

    During a regular or post season game, can someone give me an example of a player being injured because another team's player was "taking liberties" due to the fact that there we no goons on the opposition roster?

    Not looking for preseason stupidity.  There's plenty of that.

    Not looking for "amazingly coincidental circumstances that support the point".

    I'm looking for Team A doesn't have a goon.  Team B's players are "taking liberties" with Team A's star because they're not worried about payback and Team A's star gets injured.



    I'm generally in agreement on the very limited usefullness of the goon.  There's no real need for it...unless someone else has it.  That has been the only real value of Thornton, where he can at least be sacrificed to take the dance with Orr or Shelly instead of a skilled player.  

    You don't like to have to turn the other cheek all the time when you have a tough team that sticks up for each other.  If a Jody Shelly type is harassing Lucic or Chara, it is nice to have someone you can send out there to take the dance and serve the 5 minutes.  It doesn't help the team psyche, or the mentality of Lucic/Chara, to be turning down fights all the time.  If Thornton knows his role, he demands that all goons come to him and nobody else.  Beyond that, goons are becoming more and more useless.  Especially the ones who don't play hockey well.

    Team toughness, on the other hand, is a big deal.  Aside from the meek reaction to the Matt Cooke hit, the Bruins have been good at this.  I think there are plenty of examples of players taking liberties against teams that don't really stick up for eachother.  Until last year, the Avalanche were Exhibit A.  Nobody to fear on that roster and no sense of justice within the guys they had.  Teams took runs at Duchene, Stastny, and Landeskog all day long, with no real response.  That really doesn't happen to the Bruins.  Goon or no goon, you had a pretty good idea that if you took a run at Seguin, somebody was coming for you.  It might be Chara, or Lucic, or Ference, or whoever.  It makes a difference.

    I always think of a play like this -- no goon involved.  But was it worth it to tee one up after the whistle?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di_wyW1kMU8

    Or this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLOjQcyA8uc

    Team toughness = regular hockey players being tough when needed.  No goons involved.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

     

    I'm back to "it was Zedniks fault", my memory was just fine. Zednik tried to make that last second dangle and Bango,lights out.

     




    I don't think it was either player's fault, per se.  McLaren bears the burden because he did create the collision, but it was just a hockey play that ended badly in my book.

     

     



    In the end this is the way i feel as well, good way to put it Nas.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Agree on the McLaren hit, it would have been allot worse if Kyle intentionaly tried to hurt Zednik. 

    What was worse was Defoe's play the rest of the series. It helped me really define "flopping fish"!





     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Thanks Fletch, that game always puts a smile on my face - rewatching the highlights as I'm bored to tears at work. 4 fights, 4 goals in the first, god I loved that game.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Great examples, Fletch.  Now, we'll never know who didn't do something because they were concerned with retribution, but we can see that a goon plus a tough team doesn't eliminate stupidity. 

    While your Avs were being run and players were "taking liberties" (God how I hate that term) with the stars, how many of the Avs stars were injured from it?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    The whole McLaren thing was defined by Therrien.  He was the one who screamed about McLaren being out there in garbage time trying to injure Habs players to win the series.  McLaren initiated a bad hit; he wasn't out headhunting to send a message for the next game or take Zednik out.  It was too much of a bang-bang play.  But that's how he got tagged on that hit (the precedent for Montreal as a city trying to get Chara suspended years later) and it cost the Bruins.  They lost their edge.
     

    Goons had a role.  It's gone now.  They've been neutered, and apparently people want the goon code to prevent the goon from intimidating anyone.  The argument isn't whether to take fighting out of the game; it's when to change the rulebook to acknowledge that fighting as we knew it is almost gone.

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Great examples, Fletch.  Now, we'll never know who didn't do something because they were concerned with retribution, but we can see that a goon plus a tough team doesn't eliminate stupidity

    While your Avs were being run and players were "taking liberties" (God how I hate that term) with the stars, how many of the Avs stars were injured from it?



    Nothing is going to eliminate stupidity, but I can say in an unscientific, anecdotal way that the Bruins have to deal with less nonsense and runs at their star players than some other teams I watch.  I do think that some players have an awareness of their opponent and choose exploit the lack of toughness in other teams.  Take Marchand rag-dolling Sedin.  He does it because he knows nothing will happen.  I think lots of players act that way.  

    I don't feel like researching injuries at the moment, but Landeskog has two concussions so far in his short career and has been the target of many runs.  I saw Hejduk get knocked out of a preseason game last year from a nasty run by Ryan Reaves.  Lots of guys run at Duchene.  I rarely see a response (Shane O'Brien would sometimes respond and he got sent packing)

    I think you're trying to pin my argument to yours, but I'm not saying goons and fighting eliminate dirty play at all.   They don't.  I'm saying that team toughness and responsiveness to aggression puts you further up the scale of deterrence than turning the other cheek.  Even if it didn't help prevent dirty play, it certainly helps the psyche of the team when it happens.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to red75's comment:

    Thanks Fletch, that game always puts a smile on my face - rewatching the highlights as I'm bored to tears at work. 4 fights, 4 goals in the first, god I loved that game.



    That game was a beauty.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Like Fletch I watch a not very good team when I'm not watching the Bruins, but in my case I don't see the runs very often. I've seen them try it once on Enstrom, and get flattened by Buff. Crombeen slashed Little and fought Stuart. What's even better is when your stars can take care of themselves - Emelin chipping and slashing away at Kane and then getting completely pummeled. I do think team toughness does make a difference.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    I think last night also proved Kessel can skate backwards as fast as some players can skate forwards.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Me thinks everyone did not watch the whole retroclip!  Perfect!  Best thread of the perseason for pure lunacy!  Slapshot, a movie that transcends time!

     

    In response to hangnail's comment:

    And there's always this for Phil.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oyxLFD2IIw

     

     




     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Fletch, I'm not trying to be argumentative or to trap you into saying anything.

    My point, which everyone has heard 1,500 times, is that the idea of this guy running that guy or this guy crossing the line (aka taking liberties!) because there is no goon is, in my opinion, a fallacy in today's NHL.

    We see people doing bad things when goons are present.  Without any possible way to prove it, I would bet Scott would have done the same exact thing last night if Orr was on the bench.  Why wouldn't he?  He's not afraid of Colton Orr.

    Hey!  Ho!  Goons gotta go!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to red75's comment:

    Like Fletch I watch a not very good team when I'm not watching the Bruins, but in my case I don't see the runs very often. I've seen them try it once on Enstrom, and get flattened by Buff. Crombeen slashed Little and fought Stuart. What's even better is when your stars can take care of themselves - Emelin chipping and slashing away at Kane and then getting completely pummeled. I do think team toughness does make a difference.




    Even better is when a guy like Emelin thinks he should take a run at Lucic and takes himself out.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Fletch, I'm not trying to be argumentative or to trap you into saying anything.

    My point, which everyone has heard 1,500 times, is that the idea of this guy running that guy or this guy crossing the line (aka taking liberties!) because there is no goon is, in my opinion, a fallacy in today's NHL.

    We see people doing bad things when goons are present.  Without any possible way to prove it, I would bet Scott would have done the same exact thing last night if Orr was on the bench.  Why wouldn't he?  He's not afraid of Colton Orr.

    Hey!  Ho!  Goons gotta go!



    You're both saying two very seperate things, and you're both right imo.  Not every single time....but usually.  Overall, the fear factor plays a big part in how these guys handle themselves.

    The question is...are goons necessary, or will team toughness do it?  I think the answer, unfortunately, is pretty clear.  In a monkey see-monkey do business....as long as the "better" majority employ a goon, the rest have to follow.  Would the game be better with 1 more skilled player per team?  Would things be better without the nuisance of 2 cement-heads interrupting the game?.  Yup, absolutely, but another "cows point" til the management culture changes.

    This concept started, and paid handsomely for the Flyers in the mid 70's,(and especially the upstart WHA) and the industry can't seem to move past it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Another issue with replacing a goon with skill is the salary cap.  You gotta have guys who come cheap, and skill guys want to get paid.

    All in all though, goons are there for entertainment value.  When a team is down 4 or 5 goals, goons can liven up the joint with a good scrap, helping the pink hats leave with a smile on their face.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    Last night watching on NESN they made remark on the 1st fight of the night, it went something like "they might have found a loop hole in the new rules .... the players removed each others helmets"
    I guess that's what will happen after some bloodied knuckles, the players will tear off each others helmuts.

    Speaking of that 1st fight at the end of it Volpati practically WWE slammed Miller to the ice, hence why the league came up with the no taking off the helmet rule.  Another part of fights today in the NHL that I don't like , the take down .  It's MMA , anything goes, just punch !  

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: How is there no Kessel vs. John Scott thread yet?!

    In response to hangnail's comment:

    Another issue with replacing a goon with skill is the salary cap.  You gotta have guys who come cheap, and skill guys want to get paid.

    All in all though, goons are there for entertainment value.  When a team is down 4 or 5 goals, goons can liven up the joint with a good scrap, helping the pink hats leave with a smile on their face.



    Actually Hang, the cap really isn't an issue at all, as the young up-and-comers, all come cheap.  Everyone making the big bucks already has a job.  Without the heavyweight, one of the "tough to cut" players is automatically in...at entry level money.

    As for the 'pink hats"...you may be right...but I sure hope not.  The staged fight disrespects the game in my view.  It's shallow, and stupid, and disgusting.  It mocks the intelligence of fans.  The pink hats should and can be entertained much more easily.

    How about an amazing 3 way passing play that undresses the opposition resulting in a goal?  How about an other-worldly save or a big, clean hit.

    This ones probably way out there....but how about a "real" fight ?  A scrap involving two guys who are actually mad at each other.  Wouldn't that work for the pink hats too?

    In terms of the games integrity and overall social standing.....replacing the staged fight with topless "ice girls"..........would only be considered a "lateral move".

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share