How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bear-in-the-woods. Show bear-in-the-woods's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    I feel like I missed something. I didn't see all of the last game (problems on Comcast locally and the online feed was terrible). Did Seguin do something terrible to warrant the benching?

    I kinda feel like he's being overwhelmed with too much coaching. A couple games ago there was a mistake, I can't remember if he actually made the mistake or if it was someone else, but he was the only forward who had busted back to the defensive zone, along with one defenseman, and made a diving play to try to break up the scoring chance. I believe the other team scored anyway, but that's the kind of hustle you like to see from ANY player, not just an 18 year old kid. I consistently see him backchecking with speed, not dogging it back up ice. If he's making small mistakes, fine, he's a kid, but he seems to be putting in the effort and learning. To start punishing him for that when CJ wouldn't sit Ryder or Wheeler (or Wideman for that matter when he was here) for making boneheaded plays seems to be a quick way to destroy his confidence.

    Seguin seems to be an instinctive player. Let him play and work with him on the finer points. I like how they're handling Skinner in Carolina - put him in with the big boys and let him do what he does best: score goals. Teach him when he makes mistakes. It just feels like they're trying to break a stallion and make him a work horse. That's my two cents.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikegood. Show mikegood's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    this is the lamest arguement. seguin has had more than ample chances to dangle coast to coast and command his ice time...hes clearly an 18 year old playing amongst men and his style is not one that allows him to just take a game over

    the best approach is skate him when possible, coach him up and reap the rewards over the next 20 years

    rask was media hype and is fine on the bench so long as they are winning
     
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    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    I feel like I missed something. I didn't see all of the last game (problems on Comcast locally and the online feed was terrible). Did Seguin do something terrible to warrant the benching? I kinda feel like he's being overwhelmed with too much coaching. A couple games ago there was a mistake, I can't remember if he actually made the mistake or if it was someone else, but he was the only forward who had busted back to the defensive zone, along with one defenseman, and made a diving play to try to break up the scoring chance. I believe the other team scored anyway, but that's the kind of hustle you like to see from ANY player, not just an 18 year old kid. I consistently see him backchecking with speed, not dogging it back up ice. If he's making small mistakes, fine, he's a kid, but he seems to be putting in the effort and learning. To start punishing him for that when CJ wouldn't sit Ryder or Wheeler (or Wideman for that matter when he was here) for making boneheaded plays seems to be a quick way to destroy his confidence. Seguin seems to be an instinctive player. Let him play and work with him on the finer points. I like how they're handling Skinner in Carolina - put him in with the big boys and let him do what he does best: score goals. Teach him when he makes mistakes. It just feels like they're trying to break a stallion and make him a work horse. That's my two cents.
    Posted by bear-in-the-woods


    Wow, you just saved me a whole bunch of time. From now on I will simply refer others to this post.

    THANK YOU

    (no, this is not sarcastic. I agree 1000% with every word here, except that i did see the game, and no, I didn't see any obvious reason for the benching)

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikegood. Show mikegood's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    bear in da wood: is what he does best score goals? where is seguin doing that>? is he playing in a mens league i dont know about? the kid is not ready yet and if they could he would be in providence
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikegood. Show mikegood's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    remeber you need to get used to the 82 game back to back night schedule of the nhl when going from juniors. sometimes the coach is just spacing your time and avoiding burn out later in the year

    dont expect to see 19 skating a ton in the playoffs either

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from bear-in-the-woods. Show bear-in-the-woods's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    bear-in-the-woods bear in da wood: is what he does best score goals? where is seguin doing that />? is he playing in a mens league i dont know about? the kid is not ready yet and if they could he would be in providence
    Posted by mikegood


    I was referring to Skinner when I was talking about scoring goals. That's what he was known for in juniors. Although Skinner was a figure skater when he was younger, there was still a knock on his skating (lack of quickness) when he was coming out of juniors.  Now they are talking about his excellent edge control, heh. Anyway, that paragraph taling about Skinner was probably a little confusing, sorry about that. My basic point was just comparing how Skinner is being handled versus how Seguin is being handled.

    From what I've seen, Seguin has a rippin' shot, when he's in position to use it, and also has some pretty slick moves. He definitely has weaknesses in his game, and that's expected, but he does go to the net and work along the walls. He'll get better at both. I feel like they need to sit him down and say, "Tyler, you're not made of glass, feel free to throw some hits and get involved physically."  I liked one poster's suggestion of putting him on a line with Marchand or Lucic to see if they can get him fired up.

    Mostly I just feel like he's learning the game at the pro level and doing fine, and punishing him when he maybe isn't playing PERFECTLY doesn't help his confidence. Let him keep working and figure it out.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    I think a lot of people are forgetting when julien wasn't benching guys, there really weren't options..

    Like it or not the team was thin last year.. There was no one to sit ryder for and play.. I know people will say marchand, but he had his call up, he failed to do anything in 20 games but take dumb penalties..

    Did he have his ice time shortened, yes..

    Similar with wideman, injuries.. And no one really available in providence who was ready..

    Its  a different story this year, players are already fighting for ice time.  Paille sat alot in favor of seguin has played well when given the opportunity, ryder is playing well, and most importantly the team is winning, when they lose, we will see some changes..
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsCountry. Show BruinsCountry's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : I was referring to Skinner when I was talking about scoring goals. That's what he was known for in juniors. Although Skinner was a figure skater when he was younger, there was still a knock on his skating (lack of quickness) when he was coming out of juniors.  Now they are talking about his excellent edge control, heh. Anyway, that paragraph taling about Skinner was probably a little confusing, sorry about that. My basic point was just comparing how Skinner is being handled versus how Seguin is being handled. From what I've seen, Seguin has a rippin' shot, when he's in position to use it, and also has some pretty slick moves. He definitely has weaknesses in his game, and that's expected, but he does go to the net and work along the walls. He'll get better at both. I feel like they need to sit him down and say, "Tyler, you're not made of glass, feel free to throw some hits and get involved physically."  I liked one poster's suggestion of putting him on a line with Marchand or Lucic to see if they can get him fired up. Mostly I just feel like he's learning the game at the pro level and doing fine, and punishing him when he maybe isn't playing PERFECTLY doesn't help his confidence. Let him keep working and figure it out.
    Posted by bear-in-the-woods


    I submit that Seguin's not being "punished" in any way, that this...reduced ice time in 3rd period the other night, sitting upstairs with Asst. Coach Doug Jarvis a couple of nights to help him realize the game's as fast as it appears to be when out on the ice...is all just just part of A) trying to win hockey games, and B) Seguin's evolution as a player. 

    As far as comparisions with Skinner go, had their teams been reversed, I'm sure Seguin's and Skiner's roles would have been reversed also.  Coming into training camp, rebuilding Carolina was starved for skill up front and when Skinner showed he was better than most of the rest of their forwards, Canes' management had little choice but to keep him and play him.  Am not belittling Skinner in any way, he's a damn dangerous sniper whose development has undoubtedly been boosted by playing with Staal on the PP.  On the other hand, Seguin came to a B's team that didn't have to play him as much and could bring him along more slowly.  Had Seguin been a Hurricane, he'd probably have received a lot more toi than he has here, though that doesn't mean he'd have been as successful as Skinner.  Who knows, Skinner may end up having the better career, or will simply be the better goal scorer with Seguin being the better all-around player.  Tough to say at this juncture.

    Now could Seguin have benefitted from 20-40 games at Providence?  Absolutely.  But that not being possible, he was also too good to go back to juniors or play for Canada in the WJ tournament.  I think management's idea has been to teach Seguin and bring him along as reasonably as possible so he's properly prepared when circumstances dictate he get more crucial ice time.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    One more thought on Seguin. I agree with roler that he's probably getting the ice he's earned on average.  What I'd like to see is a wider fluctuation around that average.  I have no problem with him being benched when the Bruins have a lead and he misses his coverages, but I'd also have no problem seeing him shift up to play with Lucic and Savard and getting extra shifts on the PP etc. when he's playing with some spark.  Let that pendulum swing hard so it drives home the message.  Tyler, when you play like X, you get 10 minutes a game, but when you play like Y, son, I will feed you minutes like I'm fattening up a Christmas goose.
    Posted by Bookboy007


    BB - agree with the overall point of your comment, but why don't these same issues and  coaching evaluations apply to everybody on the roster? And why is it always some type of defensive lapse that is scrutinized? How bout being benched because you haven't thrown a meaningful check in a month, or every shot you take hits the goalies emblem. If Seguin is called out for his lack of defensive responsibilities - like Kessel was before him...then how did Wideman get away with his nonsense, or Wheeler last year. How is it evenly remotely plausible to put Recchi out for the PK and the 1st shift of every 4 on 4 opportunity? The only conclusion one can draw is that this coach's value of defense is 10x greater than anyone's potential offensive input. It's why Seguin is being messed with that is the issue. It seems that young gifted offensive players aren't considered to be as important as a 42 yr old forward who made countless glaring mistakes in recent weeks. It at the very least says something about what CJ perceives to be important , and what is way down his priority list-
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from CafardoSaysTradeBrady. Show CafardoSaysTradeBrady's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : I submit that Seguin's not being "punished" in any way, that this...reduced ice time in 3rd period the other night, sitting upstairs with Asst. Coach Doug Jarvis a couple of nights to help him realize the game's as fast as it appears to be when out on the ice...is all just just part of A) trying to win hockey games, and B) Seguin's evolution as a player.  As far as comparisions with Skinner go, had their teams been reversed, I'm sure Seguin's and Skiner's roles would have been reversed also.  Coming into training camp, rebuilding Carolina was starved for skill up front and when Skinner showed he was better than most of the rest of their forwards, Canes' management had little choice but to keep him and play him.  Am not belittling Skinner in any way, he's a damn dangerous sniper whose development has undoubtedly been boosted by playing with Staal on the PP.  On the other hand, Seguin came to a B's team that didn't have to play him as much and could bring him along more slowly.  Had Seguin been a Hurricane, he'd probably have received a lot more toi than he has here, though that doesn't mean he'd have been as successful as Skinner.  Who knows, Skinner may end up having the better career, or will simply be the better goal scorer with Seguin being the better all-around player.  Tough to say at this juncture. Now could Seguin have benefitted from 20-40 games at Providence?  Absolutely.  But that not being possible, he was also too good to go back to juniors or play for Canada in the WJ tournament.  I think management's idea has been to teach Seguin and bring him along as reasonably as possible so he's properly prepared when circumstances dictate he get more crucial ice time.
    Posted by BruinsCountry

    Wrong. He sat for almost the entire second period too. I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just hope that you can abandon this line of thought because it's absolutely wrong.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from CafardoSaysTradeBrady. Show CafardoSaysTradeBrady's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    I'll add this, though, when the team gets behind and they need a goal, you see Seguin out on the ice a lot more.

    I'm not sure anything more needs to be said.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    I'll add this, though, when the team gets behind and they need a goal, you see Seguin out on the ice a lot more. I'm not sure anything more needs to be said.
    Posted by CafardoSaysTradeBrady


    way to throw out some stats that you absolutely can not back up in any way shape or form...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : BB - agree with the overall point of your comment, but why don't these same issues and  coaching evaluations apply to everybody on the roster? And why is it always some type of defensive lapse that is scrutinized? How bout being benched because you haven't thrown a meaningful check in a month, or every shot you take hits the goalies emblem. If Seguin is called out for his lack of defensive responsibilities - like Kessel was before him...then how did Wideman get away with his nonsense, or Wheeler last year. How is it evenly remotely plausible to put Recchi out for the PK and the 1st shift of every 4 on 4 opportunity? The only conclusion one can draw is that this coach's value of defense is 10x greater than anyone's potential offensive input. It's why Seguin is being messed with that is the issue. It seems that young gifted offensive players aren't considered to be as important as a 42 yr old forward who made countless glaring mistakes in recent weeks. It at the very least says something about what CJ perceives to be important , and what is way down his priority list-
    Posted by JWensink

    If you don't think Recchi has EARNED the right to be treated differently than Seguin ,then I don't know what could be said to explain it,other than 25+years of experience vs.3 months.That oughtta be worth something.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsCountry. Show BruinsCountry's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : Wrong. He sat for almost the entire second period too. I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just hope that you can abandon this line of thought because it's absolutely wrong.
    Posted by CafardoSaysTradeBrady


    I could well be wrong, I'm not in the B's room.  Then again, neither are you.  None of us here know definitively what goes on or why.  But it is safe to say there are many factors at work, including that Seguin's ice time has been affected by Savard's return, the tailspin the B's were in, subsequent new lines, etc. 

    I strongly disagree with the "punishment" line of thought, that's not what's happening in Seguin's case IMHO. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : If you don't think Recchi has EARNED the right to be treated differently than Seguin ,then I don't know what could be said to explain it,other than 25+years of experience vs.3 months.That oughtta be worth something.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    yeah, you're right he's "earned" being put out on the PK  and 1st shift 4 on 4 ice time. You agree with those moves based on seniority - great!  this ain't the teamsters union.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from screw-cindy-and-ovie. Show screw-cindy-and-ovie's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : BB - agree with the overall point of your comment, but why don't these same issues and  coaching evaluations apply to everybody on the roster? And why is it always some type of defensive lapse that is scrutinized? How bout being benched because you haven't thrown a meaningful check in a month, or every shot you take hits the goalies emblem. If Seguin is called out for his lack of defensive responsibilities - like Kessel was before him...then how did Wideman get away with his nonsense, or Wheeler last year. How is it evenly remotely plausible to put Recchi out for the PK and the 1st shift of every 4 on 4 opportunity? The only conclusion one can draw is that this coach's value of defense is 10x greater than anyone's potential offensive input. It's why Seguin is being messed with that is the issue. It seems that young gifted offensive players aren't considered to be as important as a 42 yr old forward who made countless glaring mistakes in recent weeks. It at the very least says something about what CJ perceives to be important , and what is way down his priority list-
    Posted by JWensink

    Great post, completely agree 100%
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : yeah, you're right he's "earned" being put out on the PK  and 1st shift 4 on 4 ice time. You agree with those moves based on seniority - great!  this ain't the teamsters union.
    Posted by JWensink

    Twist it any way you like but these "countless glaring mistakes" made by Recchi should have nothing to do with Seguin's treatment/mistreatment.What Recchi has shown throughout his hall of fame career is the ability to keep coming back strong(as evidenced by game winner vs.Tbay).Look,the give Recchi some rest debate has been raging for awhile and i'm not opposed.That said,I see it as only common sense that Recchi is treated differently than Seguin.Especially when he's got twice as many points.
     
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    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    Seguin looks terrible. He isn't skating, he isn't shooting, he isn't doing anything. Blame Julien all you want, but the kid is a kid. Joe Thornton took a long time to develop into a top player. I expect the same with Seguin, who is sorry, not even close to Joe Thornton in playmaking ability. I don't expect anything from Seguin. If anything he should be getting time in the minors to work on his play. He is wasted in the B's lineup. Instead of healthy scratching Paille, if he, Campbell, Marchand and Thornton are all healthy, that allows for Seguin to go to the minors. Don't rush this kid. It's also a huge mistake to expect him to score 20 goals let alone 10.
     
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    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : No Habs fan..But I can tell you this much..the way the Habs can FLY on the PP and outskate the Bruins, I will be surprised if the B's can beat them in any playoff series..
    Posted by cactusTony


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    JW - I agree...to a point.  I'm totally in favour of a "what have you done for me lately" earn your ice and role philosophy. Then guys aren't getting benched for not doing x, y, or z - they're giving way to other guys on the team who are doing x, y, and z better.  Want more ice time?  Get better results.  Doesn't have to be goals and assists depending on the player, although if you want first line minutes, yeah, you have to score.

    I'd also say there're a couple of reasons to handle vets and rooks differently and to make many of these decisions based on defense (which is common to almost all coaches around the league).  Vets have done it before.  When they're not producing, you give them some rope to figure it out because, well, they've done it before.  Recchi might get too much rope, sure, but he's also one of the team's top five scorers.  Chicken, egg?  Rookies, though, even really talented ones, haven't proven they can produce at this level yet.  Flashes, sure, but not regularly let alone consistently.  They don't have the experience to help them sort out what's not working, so you fall back on fundamentals of training - the carrot and the stick.

    Defensive systems are based on players being able to trust that their teammates are where they need to be.  It's Sparta.  One humpybacked guy who can't lift his shield high enough and the whole line falls apart, then the team.  And defense is really about thinking quickly and skating hard to your position.  Errors are either  lack of effort (not Seguin's problem) or bad judgment (what do you expect from a rookie?).  Offense and even hitting are more about talent.  You can coach defense, but you can't teach a kid to dangle like Seguin or hit like Lucic.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from yaz16. Show yaz16's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    Seguin looks terrible. He isn't skating, he isn't shooting, he isn't doing anything. Blame Julien all you want, but the kid is a kid. Joe Thornton took a long time to develop into a top player. I expect the same with Seguin, who is sorry, not even close to Joe Thornton in playmaking ability. I don't expect anything from Seguin. If anything he should be getting time in the minors to work on his play. He is wasted in the B's lineup. Instead of healthy scratching Paille, if he, Campbell, Marchand and Thornton are all healthy, that allows for Seguin to go to the minors. Don't rush this kid. It's also a huge mistake to expect him to score 20 goals let alone 10.
    Posted by dannycater

    pretty much agree with you. Like i posted on other threads about the kid, he is not up to par in playing technically sound hockey. He is coming from a system where the coach asked Seguin to fly on the open ice and score points. (very poor overall coaching)

    Seguin staying after camp was managements decision vs CJ's decision i'm sure. I'm sure he would love to bring up Jordan Caron to play in Seguin's place.

    Seguin is two years away

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    Yaz,
    I dont know that seguin is 2 years away... There are holes for sure, but I am going to remain optimistic and hope that he can round out like Stamkos did by seasons ends.. But I think most fans calling for Seguin to play more are calling for it based on the hype, the draft pick and the pedigree.. He hasnt done anything to earn more playing time.. Its similar to the handful of fans still calling for Hamill to get a shot with the big club based on the fact that he was a number 8 pick and "I'd like to see what he does with better players around him"..

    Seguin is playing like a guy who might not belong in the line up at this point, this is a winning team, you cant sacrafice team success to give the kid more minutes in hopes of speeding up his progression.. This isnt basketball, seguin isnt crosby or ovechkin, no matter how good he gets, hes not going to dominate a game single handledly..
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : BB - agree with the overall point of your comment, but why don't these same issues and  coaching evaluations apply to everybody on the roster? And why is it always some type of defensive lapse that is scrutinized? How bout being benched because you haven't thrown a meaningful check in a month, or every shot you take hits the goalies emblem. If Seguin is called out for his lack of defensive responsibilities - like Kessel was before him...then how did Wideman get away with his nonsense, or Wheeler last year. How is it evenly remotely plausible to put Recchi out for the PK and the 1st shift of every 4 on 4 opportunity? The only conclusion one can draw is that this coach's value of defense is 10x greater than anyone's potential offensive input. It's why Seguin is being messed with that is the issue. It seems that young gifted offensive players aren't considered to be as important as a 42 yr old forward who made countless glaring mistakes in recent weeks. It at the very least says something about what CJ perceives to be important , and what is way down his priority list-
    Posted by JWensink

    CJ succinctly and correctly summarized!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition)

    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition):
    In Response to Re: How to Demoralize Young Players- By Claude Julien (2010 Edition) : CJ succinctly and correctly summarized!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Posted by islamorada

    Yeah,if only Boston could win some games.......
     
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