How's this for GM Suicide?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    Two different things, being cheap and being untrustworthy.  For that matter, being a basturd and being untrustworhty can be different things, and the way Harry was a basturd had nothing to do with saying X and doing Y.  If Harry thought you were a tree slug, he told you so.  The only time this ever really varied was when he said you were important to the team but offered only what the system compelled him to offer you.

    Now, Carter - there's a connection for sure.  Carter's signed for 99 years or something stupid with a NMC that kicks in after two years.  So it was move him now or bury him in an orange and black pine box.  Clearly Carter felt he was a Flyer for life, but discovered complacency doesn't sit well in Philly.  I don't know if that's GM suicide, though.  Carter may never go back or talk to Holmgren at trade shows, but I've got to figure JVR and CG and Pronger et al respect a GM who doesn't care who you are when it's your time to go.  It helps them win.  Not a bad return in terms of a guy who can play now in Voracek (and may well improve in a better environment) and a top notch pick in Couturier.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    NAS - I got into this with two former Bruins once, one of whom is on that long list of guys who Sinden felt wanted too much money, so he moved him.  I brought up your question: name a case where a player demanded a huge raise from the Bruins, got traded, and earned that big raise with his new team?  Sinden seemed pretty adept at dumping players primed for a crash, and the Juneaus and Allisons and Carters and Guerins and Boyntons etc. etc. never matched their Bruin levels elsewhere.

    That was their answer.  Bruins management undervalued the fit they had with certain players, and there's no way to know if, say, Carter stays focused in Boston and doesn't get passed around.  Point was they were a great fit in Boston and played at a high level - and deserved to be compensated for it.  Personally, I think the easy come back is that that's complicated way to say they overachieved, meaning if they didn't get the Bruins to a cup yet, maybe the right move all around is to trade them when their value's high.

    PS: on Selanne, remember that his decision to go to Colorado was to take about 20cents on the $ to play with Kariya on "superteam" with Sakic and Forsberg et al so they could win a Cup together.  If I remember rightly, they were both paid about $1.2M when the going rate for top tier offensive talent was something in the neighbourhood of $6M or $7M.  When that didn't work, he went back to the Mighty Estevezes.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    NAS - I got into this with two former Bruins once, one of whom is on that long list of guys who Sinden felt wanted too much money, so he moved him.  I brought up your question: name a case where a player demanded a huge raise from the Bruins, got traded, and earned that big raise with his new team?  Sinden seemed pretty adept at dumping players primed for a crash, and the Juneaus and Allisons and Carters and Guerins and Boyntons etc. etc. never matched their Bruin levels elsewhere. That was their answer.  Bruins management undervalued the fit they had with certain players, and there's no way to know if, say, Carter stays focused in Boston and doesn't get passed around.  Point was they were a great fit in Boston and played at a high level - and deserved to be compensated for it.  Personally, I think the easy come back is that that's complicated way to say they overachieved, meaning if they didn't get the Bruins to a cup yet, maybe the right move all around is to trade them when their value's high. PS: on Selanne, remember that his decision to go to Colorado was to take about 20cents on the $ to play with Kariya on "superteam" with Sakic and Forsberg et al so they could win a Cup together.  If I remember rightly, they were both paid about $1.2M when the going rate for top tier offensive talent was something in the neighbourhood of $6M or $7M.  When that didn't work, he went back to the Mighty Estevezes.
    Posted by Bookboy007

    Not a huge raise but Knuble has earned his money since being let go in Boston.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    Two different things, being cheap and being untrustworthy.  For that matter, being a basturd and being untrustworhty can be different things, and the way Harry was a basturd had nothing to do with saying X and doing Y.  If Harry thought you were a tree slug, he told you so.  The only time this ever really varied was when he said you were important to the team but offered only what the system compelled him to offer you. Posted by Bookboy007


    You are correct, but cheap is a lot easier for most people to get there head's around so it becomes the rallying cry.  Culture is about way more than money.  Could be something as simple as a ping pong table. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    How does Jeff Carter's reported seething anger right now relate to this poll?
    Posted by SoxFanInIL


    Didn't see that, where was it reported?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    Try TSN.ca scooter - I think I saw there that Howson hasn't even spoken to Carter yet because Carter's having a good cry or something.

    I hate the Flyers.  Is that obvious?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In order to push any kind of reasonable opinion, one must know how alleged "GM Suicide" goes down.
    None of us here....have any idea.
    Everybody wants a no trade/no movement, but not everyone can get one, plus, get the big bucks.  There are always trade offs in any negotiation.  If player 1 assumes his location is secure, without having negotiated that....he's nuts.  If a player is naive enough to believe in anything beyond whats written into his contract, he's also nuts.
    Both sides operate in a somewhat selfish, predatory mode.  Fans who don't understand that, are also nuts.
    Plyers, GM's, Owners..they pretty much all chase the same thing.  Money.   Not such a terrible thing, but that's the way it is.
    There are GM's that are liked more than others.  There's probably a GM or 2 that could be considered a bit more of a slime ball than most, but the fact is, agents generally get their guys the best deal, best protection they can, and GM's generally aren't trusted enough to sell any promises that aren't "written in".

    Back to GM suicide.  In order for that to happen, a GM would have to infer security, then ruthlessly pull the rug out from under a poor unsuspecting, helpless, player.  Based on the above, I can't see how any player(in conjunction with his well paid agent), could be that stupid. 
    Is it possible that PC, with his background as an agent, could be perceived as a less hostile force than most "company men" ?

    On a somewhat unrelated note...........I always get a kick out of those who take a run at Harry(fans and players).
    Contract negotiations are like playoff games.  They're adversarial and competitive.  Both sides are always looking for leverage, and both sides want bragging rights.
    No one in the game of hockey ever played they're position any harder than Harry Sinden.  Surprised he was so intimidating to guys of Guerin's stature.
    Kudo's to Harry.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : Like whom?  What does that mean?  It's not a "whom" question.  The B's had a reputation as being cheap and had a hard time signing and retaining free agents.  Pretty common knowledge. 
    Posted by scooter244


    Yes, as in give me some examples.  Reputation isn't fact, it's opinion.  Give me some names of players who left as RFA because the B's were cheap.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : Not a huge raise but Knuble has earned his money since being let go in Boston.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    That was due to MOC and Co's blunder after the lockout.



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : Yes, as in give me some examples.  Reputation isn't fact, it's opinion.  Give me some names of players who left as RFA because the B's were cheap.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    I'll ask them and get back to you. 
    In the mean time tell me how many quality RFA's didn't sign with the B's and had great years following?  (you're right, nobody knows)  I have a really hard time, prior to Chara and Savard, thinking of a core piece RFA that signed, or re-signed for that matter, with Boston in the years mentioned.  Help me if you can think of some.  Please please please say Lapointe.  [edit: other than Bourque, amazing loyalty]

    Yes, this is all about opinion. 

    You're trying to turn this into a debate as to whether Harry and co. did the right thing by playing hardball with those seeking contracts.  As somebody above pointed out, Sinden was quite good and dumping guys at the right time.  The Jacobs philosophy was to keep salaries in check, and went a long way to creating the salary Cap, which is a good thing IMO.  So, in a lot of ways the philosophy could be justified, but the price paid was a perception that the Bruins were cheap.  The secondary price was Bruins fans had teams a piece or two away from winning and that piece never came.   This is an opinion, one shared by many people. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In order to push any kind of reasonable opinion, one must know how alleged "GM Suicide" goes down. None of us here....have any idea. Everybody wants a no trade/no movement, but not everyone can get one, plus, get the big bucks.  There are always trade offs in any negotiation.  If player 1 assumes his location is secure, without having negotiated that....he's nuts.  If a player is naive enough to believe in anything beyond whats written into his contract, he's also nuts. Both sides operate in a somewhat selfish, predatory mode.  Fans who don't understand that, are also nuts. Plyers, GM's, Owners..they pretty much all chase the same thing.  Money.   Not such a terrible thing, but that's the way it is. There are GM's that are liked more than others.  There's probably a GM or 2 that could be considered a bit more of a slime ball than most, but the fact is, agents generally get their guys the best deal, best protection they can, and GM's generally aren't trusted enough to sell any promises that aren't "written in". Back to GM suicide.  In order for that to happen, a GM would have to infer security, then ruthlessly pull the rug out from under a poor unsuspecting, helpless, player.  Based on the above, I can't see how any player(in conjunction with his well paid agent), could be that stupid.  Is it possible that PC, with his background as an agent, could be perceived as a less hostile force than most "company men" ? On a somewhat unrelated note...........I always get a kick out of those who take a run at Harry(fans and players). Contract negotiations are like playoff games.  They're adversarial and competitive.  Both sides are always looking for leverage, and both sides want bragging rights. No one in the game of hockey ever played they're position any harder than Harry Sinden.  Surprised he was so intimidating to guys of Guerin's stature. Kudo's to Harry.
    Posted by stevegm

    No one said he was intimidating Steve. I said people avoided dealing with him because he was cheap. I don't think I'm the only one that's noticed the perception of Boston being a "cheap" franchise is only recently starting to change. Harry was a huge reason for this. I think he's a lot like Brian Burke in that he had enough early success that he became stubborn to the point of stupidity sometimes. Harry's overall success is legendary but he did have a rough 25 (or so) year stretch there at the end.

     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : No one said he was intimidating Steve. I said people avoided dealing with him because he was cheap. I don't think I'm the only one that's noticed the perception of Boston being a "cheap" franchise is only recently starting to change. Harry was a huge reason for this. I think he's a lot like Brian Burke in that he had enough early success that he became stubborn to the point of stupidity sometimes. Harry's overall success is legendary but he did have a rough 25 (or so) year stretch there at the end.  
    Posted by dezaruchi


    Dez - It used to be reported and explained up here as Sinden carrying out ownership's "fiscally responsible philosophy."  I like your explanation much better.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : Dez - It used to be reported and explained up here as Sinden carrying out ownership's "fiscally responsible philosophy."  I like your explanation much better.
    Posted by RichHillOntario

    RHO, Harry never struck me as the sort of person willing to accept advice. Sometimes being stubborn is a good thing but Harry really seemed to push the envelope.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from callodthedom19. Show callodthedom19's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    If I'm a UFA, SJ is one of the last teams I look at.  I'd much rather try to hook on with an Original 6, or in a market where hockey is important to the region.  Practicing and surfing on the same day don't go hand in hand. .. unless you don't care about winning.
    Posted by hangnail

    Reasons I'd sign there.
    1. Contending team for years.
    2. Great location
    3. Babes
    4. See 3
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : I'll ask them and get back to you.  In the mean time tell me how many quality RFA's didn't sign with the B's and had great years following?  (you're right, nobody knows)  I have a really hard time, prior to Chara and Savard, thinking of a core piece RFA that signed, or re-signed for that matter, with Boston in the years mentioned.  Help me if you can think of some.  Please please please say Lapointe.  [edit: other than Bourque, amazing loyalty] Yes, this is all about opinion.  You're trying to turn this into a debate as to whether Harry and co. did the right thing by playing hardball with those seeking contracts.  As somebody above pointed out, Sinden was quite good and dumping guys at the right time.  The Jacobs philosophy was to keep salaries in check, and went a long way to creating the salary Cap, which is a good thing IMO.  So, in a lot of ways the philosophy could be justified, but the price paid was a perception that the Bruins were cheap.  The secondary price was Bruins fans had teams a piece or two away from winning and that piece never came.   This is an opinion, one shared by many people. 
    Posted by scooter244


    Scooter, my friend, we are talking about two different things.  Yet another misunderstanding, no problem.

    I thought you were referring to RFAs that were already Boston property that ended up holding out and leaving (Anson Carter), not other RFAs that just didn't come to Boston because the deals were poor.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : Scooter, my friend, we are talking about two different things.  Yet another misunderstanding, no problem. I thought you were referring to RFAs that were already Boston property that ended up holding out and leaving (Anson Carter), not other RFAs that just didn't come to Boston because the deals were poor.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    I seem to have made a mess of this.  I wasn't talking RFA's at all, despite typing it at least twice.  I was thinking UFA's.  My fault. 
    My point was the Bruins had a difficult time attracting and retaining UFA's during that period. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How's this for GM Suicide? : I seem to have made a mess of this.  I wasn't talking RFA's at all, despite typing it at least twice.  I was thinking UFA's.  My fault.  My point was the Bruins had a difficult time attracting and retaining UFA's during that period. 
    Posted by scooter244[/QUOTE]

    Wow, we really did botch that!


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: How's this for GM Suicide?

    It was fun to watch, though.  No one intervened...just let the two of you go.
     
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