Re: I thought Thomas Was Done Talking???
posted at 2/12/2012 2:13 PM EST
In Response to Re: I thought Thomas Was Done Talking???
-the poem begins with 'in Germany' -the poem specifically mentions the rounding up of the Jews. -the poem was written by Martin Niemoller. Apparently you don't know who he is, so I'll help you out. He lived in Germany during the Holocaust, was captured by the Nazis for supporting Jews and was sent to the infamous concentration camp Daccau for 8 years. -This peom was a reflection of his experience. IT IS ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST. . Cheers. Posted by Fletcher1
Yes this is true but you have to read the bio on him to understand how and why he came to feel the way he did. He initially (as did many others) supported Hitler. "However, Niemöller only gradually abandoned his national conservative views and even made pejorative remarks about Jews of faith while protecting—in his own church—baptised Christians, persecuted as Jews by the Nazis, due to their or their forefathers' Jewish descent. In one sermon in 1935, he remarked: "What is the reason for [their] obvious punishment, which has lasted for thousands of years? Dear brethren, the reason is easily given: the Jews brought the Christ of God to the cross!" 'considers Niemöller "an opportunist who had no quarrel with Hitler politically and only began to oppose the Nazis when Hitler threatened to attack the churches." why he ever supported the Nazi Party , Niemöller replied: I find myself wondering about that too. I wonder about it as much as I regret it. Still, it is true that Hitler betrayed me. I had an audience with him, as a representative of the Protestant Church, shortly before he became Chancellor, in 1932. Hitler promised me on his word of honor, to protect the Church, and not to issue any anti-Church laws. He also agreed not to allow pogroms against the Jews, assuring me as follows: "There will be restrictions against the Jews, but there will be no ghettos, no pogroms, in Germany." I really believed, given the widespread anti-Semitism in Germany, at that time—that Jews should avoid aspiring to Government positions or seats in the Reichstag. There were many Jews, especially among the Zionists, who took a similar stand. Hitler's assurance satisfied me at the time. On the other hand, I hated the growing atheistic movement, which was fostered and promoted by the Social Democrats and the Communists. Their hostility toward the Church made me pin my hopes on Hitler for a while. I am paying for that mistake now; and not me alone, but thousands of other persons like me. So, yes it is about ther Holocaust but because it was written as a result of the horror of what was Nazi Germany at the hands of Hitler and the SS. However, it is not specifically about the rounding up of the Jews but about speaking up when it doesn't apply to you - otherwise who will speak up for you. Which is what was said about 6 pages of threads ago. 'There were no minutes or copy of what I said, and it may be that I formulated it differently. But the idea was anyhow: The communists, we still let that happen calmly; and the trade unions, we also let that happen; and we even let the Social Democrats happen. All of that was not our affair. The Church did not concern itself with politics at all at that time, and it shouldn't have anything do with them either." This thread has really gone down a path that has nothing to do with the original posting. You're both right in your argument - you're justing looking at it from different positions. maybe it's time to just agree to disagree??
Posted by vcec[/QUOTE]
I really think it has everything to do with the original post vcec. my latest comments above to fletch deal with that.
I appreciate you jumping in here. I really don't need to be right. I'd like to get to the right answer though.
I don't believe we're both right. Is this "poem" not like a fable...a few thoughts, that combined, make kind of an all encompassing statement?
To me, it's clearly about "speaking up".
If it's "all about the holocaust", as fletch says...then what exactly is the message? What is it about the holocaust, we're supposed to interpret. If so, why is the message cluttered up with stuff about the Catholics, and the Communists.(and if it can't be summarized in a sentence or two...it can't be the message)
Usually these things don't send 2 clear messages, that are unrelated.
Basically comes down to this. If the poem's message is about speaking up, there's nothing to support the accusation that TT is a Nazi(or that TT thinks everyone else is), and I think that inference goes beyond fair ball.
TT's been called dumb, shallow, a bunch of other things..could care less. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but I just think the Nazi stuff is an impediment to sensible debate, and way, way over the top.