Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Like most hockey fans, I wish my team(the B's!) could get players with skills like St. Louis. He can flat score and is one of the playoffs top scorers this postseason.

    However, after further review i am starting to wonder about him. After watching Marchand score a goal with St Louis next to him(not into him), i'm starting to wonder if Martin is just an offensive force.  Is his team better off with him out there?  Here are my main points-

    1-He has the worst plus/minus (-8)out of 269 players in the playoffs this year, even though he is the leading scorer! Crazy isn't it?
    2- St Louis is -3 for entire series vs Boston and was -2 last night
    3- He has not been in the + for any of the 5 games, even with a 2 point game in Game 1!

    Offensively, the guy has skills but outside of the powerplay, does he make his team better? Does he play D at all?

    The guy has great talent, but does his talents make the team better outside of the powerplay? I think the numbers speak for themself
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from LUCICmilan17. Show LUCICmilan17's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Pretty eye poping numbers you presented here!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    The guy is a warrior. 
    The numbers you're giving can be deceiving.  He could be hurt or having a bad series. It's taking a toll playing against Seidenberg and Chara game in and game out.
    Sure yesterday that lack of concentration had Marchand score. I'de like to look at it from another angle. Marchand coming in on the forehand was just stronger on the puck and St Louis just could not contain him.  If you look at the replay St Louis did get a stick in.
    To say he can't play D is wrong.  Yesterday at 1-0 he did a good play on Krejci taking away a scoring chance. 
    Also the 2-0 game the Bruins won at 1-0 he came back and took away a chance for Begry at the open net after Peverly shanked his shot on the nice feed by the same Bergeron.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    No, he isn't.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    BsLegion- i've always respected his ability offensively and i'm not suggesting he hasn't made any decent plays in the D zone. 

    My judgement is not from that one play- I looking at the numbers.  If you take away the B's series, he is a -5 even with all those points.  What does that mean? He is on the ice for a lot of opponents goals.  It is also interesting the Lecavalier is +6 and you often see him paired with MStL.

    St Louis also had 99 points this year but was even in the +/-

    I think these numbers point to more than just a short term lapse in his Dzone play.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    I would have to say no.  Plus/minus is a tough stat to judge someone on.  He always brings his A game, always battles, and is a player any team would love to have.  Tampa has had some awful goaltending and bad d-man mistakes in this series, that likely affect the +/- of some of the forwards unfairly.  St. Louis is a stud.  He is supposed to score and he does.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    BsLegion- i've always respected his ability offensively and i'm not suggesting he hasn't made any decent plays in the D zone.  My judgement is not from that one play- I looking at the numbers.  If you take away the B's series, he is a -5 even with all those points.  What does that mean? He is on the ice for a lot of opponents goals.  It is also interesting the Lecavalier is +6 and you often see him paired with MStL. St Louis also had 99 points this year but was even in the +/- I think these numbers point to more than just a short term lapse in his Dzone play.
    Posted by stingerjp


    Stinger don't rely too much on +/- stats. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    I would have to say no.  Plus/minus is a tough stat to judge someone on.  He always brings his A game, always battles, and is a player any team would love to have.  Tampa has had some awful goaltending and bad d-man mistakes in this series, that likely affect the +/- of some of the forwards unfairly.  St. Louis is a stud.  He is supposed to score and he does.
    Posted by Fletcher1


    G issues- agree;
    D- would say they have a strong D. Hedman,Brewer, Bergeron are all very good.  TB was pretty good this season and very good in postseason. Why is he on the ice for so many GA???

    He is a scoring stud, but it is pretty clear that his all-around play is lacking.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from FranklinFlyers14. Show FranklinFlyers14's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    +- isn't everything and he may be having a down series, however is +- in the regular season is 0 also not a great number...

    I think that can show his lack of D.

    Many people say the same thing about Briere as well, I still think they are both solid players, just adding something.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from thedauber1. Show thedauber1's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    definitely isn't over rated but he is having a poor series in my opinion. Credit to marchand on that goal. Marty was there, Marchand fought through it
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveTheBruins. Show LoveTheBruins's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Just checked the numbers, I never realized how poor his + / - is.

    His best year, with 102 points, he was only a +7.  His best years plus minus wise were with the Bulin Wall in net.  He's got 778 career points and is only a career +15.

    At the end of the day, he's probably a career minus player, since many of his points were on the power play.

    I would still take him during his prime though.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Leave your stat sheets behind and *gasp* watch his actually play the game.

    He's one of the best players in the NHL.  The only people that question this are those who don't understand hockey.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    Just checked the numbers, .... At the end of the day, he's probably a career minus player, since many of his points were on the power play. I would still take him during his prime though.
    Posted by LoveTheBruins


    Not sure what this means.  The powerplay does not count for plus/minus.  How is he "probably" a career minus player?  Either he is or he isn't.  He isn't.

    As far as Tampa's defense stinger, they haven't been great.  Bergeron is a terrible defender.  That's why is has been on the brink of being out of the league for several years.  Hedman is good but has made several horrendous mistakes resulting in goals.  That's why I say that St. Louis' +/- for the series isn't very telling.  He is outstanding, no two ways about it.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    I don't know how one can go from undersized, undrafted and unwanted to overrated. Thats unbeleivable.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from perrysound. Show perrysound's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    Like most hockey fans, I wish my team(the B's!) could get players with skills like St. Louis. He can flat score and is one of the playoffs top scorers this postseason. However, after further review i am starting to wonder about him. After watching Marchand score a goal with St Louis next to him(not into him), i'm starting to wonder if Martin is just an offensive force.  Is his team better off with him out there?  Here are my main points- 1-He has the worst plus/minus (-8)out of 269 players in the playoffs this year, even though he is the leading scorer! Crazy isn't it? 2- St Louis is -3 for entire series vs Boston and was -2 last night 3- He has not been in the + for any of the 5 games, even with a 2 point game in Game 1! Offensively, the guy has skills but outside of the powerplay, does he make his team better? Does he play D at all? The guy has great talent, but does his talents make the team better outside of the powerplay? I think the numbers speak for themself
    Posted by stingerjp


    I was really hoping that the B's could have pried him out of TBay 2 yrs ago, but doubt any serious effort was made. He was one of the 3 that I hoped they go get to replace Savard after the Cooke hit. Richards or Iggy were the other 2.
    He is a blood and guts player. I'd take him on my team any day because he always puts out a good or great effort, and is one of the smartest players in the league right now. (and he's won a cup, and IMHO was the MVP ).
    I do admit that those numbers are confusing. Hard to explain for a guy that produces so many points, but the TBay team is not very good at shut down hockey. They wouldn't be here if not for the Goalie. I guess you could say that of Boston too, but the B's have consistantly been at or near the top in Defensive hockey.
    For our sake, lets hope this continues for 1 more game.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    Leave your stat sheets behind and *gasp* watch his actually play the game. He's one of the best players in the NHL.  The only people that question this are those who don't understand hockey.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    I'd tend to agree with this. The fact that the smallest player in the leage MSL requires 100% effort from the biggest player in the league Chara to be shut down is telling of his skills.

    Its not just his hands its the creativity and speed at which he uses them.


    Also, didn't Tampa score at a crazy pace on the PP in the first 2 series? AFAIK PP goals dont count towards your +/- so if he was scoring pts at a fair clip on the PP it wouldnt be reflected in his +/- stat.

    One of the many flaws with that particular stat, which I know has been discussed ad-nauseoum on here b4.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrVmax. Show MrVmax's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Flat out no! He is not a league Hart Trophy finalist because he is overrated, this guy is all heart and many would love to have him on their team, including me!

    GO BRUINS!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Martin St Louis is an exceptional player.
     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TryToBearIt. Show TryToBearIt's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    The +/- stat is or can be quite deceiving...it needs to be taken into consideration with how much ice time he gets--because he's good, he's on the ice more.

    More ice time also means more chances for your +/- stats to look bad.

    Bottom line is: would you want St. Louis on your team? The answer has to be "yes", and so the question of "overrated" flies out the window...because if the same question were asked "Do you want an overrated player on your team?", you would answer "no thanks."
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbruin4. Show mrbruin4's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    Marty  is  the REAL DEAL......WATCHED HIM FOR 4 YRS AND  HOIST THE CUP IN  2004   Take him as a Bruin anytime

    That being said hope  he is minus  5 tonight
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mgauthier1975. Show mgauthier1975's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    No, if anything he is underrated. He probably hasn't been at his best in this series, but he still scares me to death.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    If you want to go by stats, consider the following.  For his regular season (post season too likely to be skewed by one or two games) he was averaging a +0.8 for every 60 minutes of 5-on-5 ice time (second on TB).  But then he was on the ice for 41 5-on-4 goals... and 13 against?  That's rough, but still a plus 28.

    I think this is what a lot of teams look for out of non-marquee top-six players.  Don't be a minus when playing 5-on-5, and make a splash on the power play.  After all, it is total goal differential that wins the game, not 5-on-5 differential.  And this season he was a net +45 (looking only at 5v5 and 5v4 stats though).

    For comparison's sake, Lucic was +44, Krejčí +45, so he's in their league in terms of total game impact (though not scaled for ice-time).  By comparison, D Sedin was +83 and Perry was +39.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    In Response to Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?:
    Martin St Louis is an exceptional player. Posted by OatesCam


    Without any question as every time he steps on the ice I fear the Bolts are going to score. One of the smartest players I've ever seen on the ice.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Is Martin St. Louis vastly overrated?

    I guess my biggest compliment towards Chara is that he shut down an MVP candidate.  Has done a great job against him.  He will have his massive hands full of Gazoo Twins soon. 

    I think its gonna be an excellent final.  Cant wait.  Also can't wait for the playoffs to be over b/c those west coast gamesa re killer on sleep patterns and my 3 yr old doesnt care if daddy was up till 3 am. 
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share