Is there truly open competition?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Is there truly open competition?

    I say of course there is not!  Yet that's what I have heard from management, coaches, players, fans, and media.  I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it is worth bringing up on it's own.

    How many of you remember rookie camp and training camp for the arrival of Tyler Seguin?  Now how many of you think that he outperformed Ryan Spooner during that camp?  I am one that thinks that Ryan was better than Tyler, but had zero chance of making the team in front of the #2 player taken in the entry draft.  IF camp were truly an open competition, it would have been Tyler going back to Juniors and not Ryan.

    What factors play into decisions being made for "open" competitions? 

    1. Draft Position - Does Zack Trotman, have a chance to take Dougie's spot if he clearly outperforms him in this camp? Not a snowballs chance in hell.

    2. Cap Hit

    3. How player was obtained?  Is the larger version of Chris Bourque getting a free pass because it took a lot of effort to obtain him from Sweden?  Do one of the throw in's to the Seguin trade have to play so that the trade looks better?

    4. NHL games played - Veteran like Chris Kelly gets the benefit of the doubt, even though he had a down year last year and could be considered overpaid.  Is spooner better than him right now at the pivot?  

    5. Age - Are they too old, or too young?

    6. Waiver eligible?  Juniors/AHL?ECHL?

    7. Fighting Ability/Toughness

    8. Ice Time - Does Malcolm really have a shot at the back up position, even if he clearly outshines Svedberg and Ocho Cinco GAA?

    I am sure you have some more factors, and these also overlap each other, but my point is, that as much as they want everyone to believe their is an open competition, there really isn't.  I understand that their have to be factors regarding these decisions, but some of them just don't seem fair.  Tough Job putting together the right mix, but it seems that Claude & PC get it right based on their success.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from G4ck5. Show G4ck5's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    You're right in the sense it's all about politics and saving face with trades and draft picks. Unless the other guys blow peoples minds away with their performance. There is no way in hell that they will get the spot before a first round draft pick. It's so frustrating sometimes that its all about the pedigree and not about the player/skill.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    Like every other job imaginable, or any other topic imaginable... attempting to to totally define something based on 1 statement or criteria is ridiculous.

    As a general statement, there is an open competition, but there are dozens of other factors in play.  The OP suggested many of them, and there are plenty more.  When those realities become interpreted as "wrong, or contrived, or sleazy, or entitled"....the conversation goes to the dumper real quick.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    Don't forget that the staff see more than just the preseason games.  They see the practices, they see the whole body of work prior, and then they have to make decisions based on projections.  That is not the same as simply rewarding the roster spot to the player who performs the best in the preseason.

    -- Proud user of Chambraigne; Now with Wiener Scent! --

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mattymcgee55. Show mattymcgee55's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    Very interesting and pretty spot on MeanE. I would argue against a couple though-

     

    4. NHL games played - Veteran like Chris Kelly gets the benefit of the doubt, even though he had a down year last year and could be considered overpaid.  Is spooner better than him right now at the pivot?  

    No way Spooner is a better 3rd line center than Chris Kelly, not at this point anyway. Kelly is much more defensively responsible and a vet of CJ's system. 

     

    8. Ice Time - Does Malcolm really have a shot at the back up position, even if he clearly outshines Svedberg and Ocho Cinco GAA?

     

    I think the real question w/ Subban would be where will be the best place for his development. More likely to be Belleville than Boston. Hoping he gets at leats half the starts in Pro.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    If Trotman were injury free last season I think he might have had some call ups. Having NHL TOI would have helped because he is having a great camp, the others are playing to well For Zack to pass them. PC now has a position of strength to trade from if need be at the deadline. 

    I never thought Malcolm had a shot at backup, gotta prove yourself in the AHL first. Svedberg has a legit chance at backup even though assistant gm Stanley likes "late reaction" Johnson.

    There is absolutely competition for 3rd line and the 5th, 6th and 7th D spot(the order of names need to filled in). Cap space is tight but Savards LTIR can be used If need be.

     

     

     





     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    MeanE, I remember that camp as well. It also included two bubble players who had a cup of coffee with the Bruins the previous season and who were anything but locks going into camp. They played their way onto the team with one being a stalwart for the Bruins defensive depth and the other scoring two goals in game 7 against the Canucks. People seem to forget there were three rookies on that team, and at least two of them had their spots because they earned them in camp.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to red75's comment:

    MeanE, I remember that camp as well. It also included two bubble players who had a cup of coffee with the Bruins the previous season and who were anything but locks going into camp. They played their way onto the team with one being a stalwart for the Bruins defensive depth and the other scoring two goals in game 7 against the Canucks. People seem to forget there were three rookies on that team, and at least two of them had their spots because they earned them in camp.



    Absolutely Red.  I am not necessarily faulting the B's management, etc...  I just don't like some of the "politics" that play into the decisions some times, but as I said, their success trumps my concerns for fairness.  So are you in agreement with me that Tyler did not earn his spot and that Spooner outplayed him?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:

    If Trotman were injury free last season I think he might have had some call ups. Having NHL TOI would have helped because he is having a great camp, the others are playing to well For Zack to pass them. PC now has a position of strength to trade from if need be at the deadline. 

    I never thought Malcolm had a shot at backup, gotta prove yourself in the AHL first. Svedberg has a legit chance at backup even though assistant gm Stanley likes "late reaction" Johnson.

    There is absolutely competition for 3rd line and the 5th, 6th and 7th D spot(the order of names need to filled in). Cap space is tight but Savards LTIR can be used If need be.

     



    Absolutely San, Injury concerns can be seen as another factor.

    I also never have felt that Malcolm had a shot at backup,  it's the whole pay your dues situation amongst other factors.

    Doyou feel that the competition is fair for the 3rd line and 5,6,7?  What if "sweethands" pots 2 more tonight and the swede takes a couple of bad penalties and doesn't look all that great?  What does Soderberg have to do to lose his spot, because it seems clear that it is his to lose?

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    "I understand that their have to be factors regarding these decisions, but some of them just don't seem fair.  Tough Job putting together the right mix, but it seems that Claude & PC get it right based on their success." - MeanE

    This is the most important part.  Everything else if fluffernutter unless you're one of the players or somehow impacted by them (agent, family etc.).  You're totally right about the multitude of factors that come into play, and the other one I would add is "how are they scoring the competition?"  Say Khokhlachev out-points Spooner because he's playing with Eriksson and Marchand not Camara and Johnson.  Does he win the competition if the numbers are close, or if Spooner creates more chances that don't end up in the net, does that matter more than the actually points?

    I would also say that there are two levels to this - there's the competition for open spots (D6, F9) and then there's the purest competition for jobs, where someone might be good enough that the Bruins consider dealing Kelly.

    In both cases, I wouldn't have it any other way than the competition being handicapped, which is not the same as saying it's based on pedigree.  Should Spooner and Kelly be judged on a level playing field when a) Kelly has a long history of excelled defensive play and decent secondary scoring and Spooner has played 4 NHL games?  b) choosing to keep Spooner likely means moving Kelly out of the organization?  Should Trotman take ice time from a guy who is widely acknowledged to have #1 D skills and size based on a two-week camp against split squads?  Especially when that other guy has already shown he can be a capable NHL defenseman?  I don't think so.

    This team went to game six of the finals, and came within a couple of minutes of going to game 7.  The bar should be high to compete for spots if you're going to take a job from an established player.  The more NHL experience you have, the more capital you should have with the coaches; a good couple of weeks by a guy who may have had the whole summer to recuperate and get geeked for camp shouldn't be enough if you're taking the "what's best for the team" approach.  Same thing for the younger players among themselves, where it's not Trotman vs. Hamilton but Trotman vs. Bartkowski or Krug.  Hamilton was in Boston last year, and that should count for something.

    I think the more accurate way of looking at the "politics" and "saving face" is that the Bruins front office is very deliberate.  They make up their minds about things and then it's up to the players to change their minds.  I will be stunned if the third line isn't Soderberg-Kelly-Smith at this point.  Stunned.  I'll be very surprised if the pairings on day one are not Chara-Boychuk, Seidenberg-Hamilton, Krug-McQuaid.  Because that's the scenario management constructed based on what players have done up to this point.  It's a competition, but it's a handicapped race. 

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    I honestly can't remember Spooner's play at that camp, but considering it is three years later and Spooner still hasn't made the jump yet, that assessment seems a little strange.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

      Same thing for the younger players among themselves, where it's not Trotman vs. Hamilton but Trotman vs. Bartkowski or Krug.  Hamilton was in Boston last year, and that should count for something.

    I agree with most everything that you stated.  However, Hamilton's time in Boston could be viewed as they were forced into playing him.  Sending him back to juniors wouldn't have been beneficial to his development and he couldn't go to Providence because of the ridiculous "agreement" with the CHL.  When the B's had other options in the playoffs he sat, so by no means shoud he be a lock for a top 4 d man on this team.  I'm not saying that Trotman or Miller are better or are beating out Hamilton for that spot.  Only that Dougie was a #1 pick that was acquired in one of the biggest blockbuster trades in the Bruins history, and that the other piece of that trade has been traded, he has some inherent advantages over a 7th round pick and an undrafted player when it comes to making the team.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to red75's comment:

    I honestly can't remember Spooner's play at that camp, but considering it is three years later and Spooner still hasn't made the jump yet, that assessment seems a little strange.



    You must have missed the game that Jack Edwards was doing the PA announcing and doing his spooooooooner bit.  :)

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bisson1. Show Bisson1's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    4 is interesting. With Spooner and Khokolachev in Providence hopefully Kelly is extra motivated to get back to his 2011 and 2012 form.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    Soderberg needs to create more shots for himself and a slow start in the first 20 games will have watching games from the 9th row. Carl won't have a whole season to figure it out, he needs to come out of the gates on fiyah to show Julien he can play both ends. 

    I agree with Book, Bartkowski is the 7th and Krug has been paired with McQuaid it will stay that way. Trotman looks so much better than last season, Morrow needs a ton of work on his one on one battles. Joe is a fluid, powerful skater gets up to top speed with ease. He is not using that big frame of his, that will not score points with Julien.

    I dont think Johnson surpases Smith or Fraser no matter what happens.





     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to MeanE's comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

     

      Same thing for the younger players among themselves, where it's not Trotman vs. Hamilton but Trotman vs. Bartkowski or Krug.  Hamilton was in Boston last year, and that should count for something.

     

     

    I agree with most everything that you stated.  However, Hamilton's time in Boston could be viewed as they were forced into playing him.  Sending him back to juniors wouldn't have been beneficial to his development and he couldn't go to Providence because of the ridiculous "agreement" with the CHL.  When the B's had other options in the playoffs he sat, so by no means shoud he be a lock for a top 4 d man on this team.  I'm not saying that Trotman or Miller are better or are beating out Hamilton for that spot.  Only that Dougie was a #1 pick that was acquired in one of the biggest blockbuster trades in the Bruins history, and that the other piece of that trade has been traded, he has some inherent advantages over a 7th round pick and an undrafted player when it comes to making the team.



    You can read it that way, I guess, but I really don't think PC has to buttcover like that.  Cup, Finals in the last three years buy you the luxury of saying "I think I know how to ice a Cup contender."  They sent Hamilton back to Junior for a year that ended up being a year and a half (and, just to address the comparison, a year in junior should ahve been much more beneficial to Spooner than it would have been for Party Time).  He was a better player on his own merits last year than Kaberle when he was in Boston, than Corvo when he was in Boston, and pretty close to Derek Morris frankly.  He was drafted where he was drafted because they like his overall game, and that's going to influence whether they think he'll be better than what Trotman or Miller show over a few pre-season games when playing vs. NHL rosters over 82.  I don't think that has anything to do with unfair "advantages" other than the fact the coaches are more familiar with Hamilton and have more evidence he can deliver in the NHL than the other two.  For them, camp is a chance to show they can do what Hamilton has already done, if only for a short while and regardless of how he ended up playing in the NHL.

    I don't think PC and CJ are "forced" into playing anyone except by the cap and the availability of players.  They had cash to burn last year, and if a player had been available to give them more than what Chris Bourque did, maybe they should have picked him up sooner.  But they played Bourque because they wanted to see if that would work - great story, right?  It didn't.  He's gone.  They went and got Jagr after attempting to get Iginla and Morrow.  Nothing forced.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    Sorry to mix sports but didn't Jackie Bradley Jr. look great in spring training. Hello Trotman and Subban as the comparison.   Svedberg is a victim of the JJ cap btw.  Thank goodness Seguin was not relegated to the AHL after his first season, heh?  Nonetheless I tend to agree with MeanE that the competition for spots is already predestined by CJ.  Hamilton will make the team imo.  Svedberg will be in Providence, yet OchoCinco could be press box bench sliver with occassional call ups from Providence.  Smith or Fraser as third line wingers is the only competition.  Spooner has the skills but what a waste on the third line.  He gets the call ups if a center is injured.  It is so nice to have the problems the Bs are having right now, certainly beats 2005-06.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to MeanE's comment:

     

    I say of course there is not!  Yet that's what I have heard from management, coaches, players, fans, and media.  I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it is worth bringing up on it's own.

    How many of you remember rookie camp and training camp for the arrival of Tyler Seguin?  Now how many of you think that he outperformed Ryan Spooner during that camp?  I am one that thinks that Ryan was better than Tyler, but had zero chance of making the team in front of the #2 player taken in the entry draft.  IF camp were truly an open competition, it would have been Tyler going back to Juniors and not Ryan.

    What factors play into decisions being made for "open" competitions? 

    1. Draft Position - Does Zack Trotman, have a chance to take Dougie's spot if he clearly outperforms him in this camp? Not a snowballs chance in hell.

    2. Cap Hit

    3. How player was obtained?  Is the larger version of Chris Bourque getting a free pass because it took a lot of effort to obtain him from Sweden?  Do one of the throw in's to the Seguin trade have to play so that the trade looks better?

    4. NHL games played - Veteran like Chris Kelly gets the benefit of the doubt, even though he had a down year last year and could be considered overpaid.  Is spooner better than him right now at the pivot?  

    5. Age - Are they too old, or too young?

    6. Waiver eligible?  Juniors/AHL?ECHL?

    7. Fighting Ability/Toughness

    8. Ice Time - Does Malcolm really have a shot at the back up position, even if he clearly outshines Svedberg and Ocho Cinco GAA?

    I am sure you have some more factors, and these also overlap each other, but my point is, that as much as they want everyone to believe their is an open competition, there really isn't.  I understand that their have to be factors regarding these decisions, but some of them just don't seem fair.  Tough Job putting together the right mix, but it seems that Claude & PC get it right based on their success.

     




    You should start writing for The Enquirer. Everything's a conspiracy with you or Seguin's banging someone's wife. There's zero reason to believe that PC and CJ aren't icing the team they think can win every night. The fact they reached 2 Finals in the last 3 years seems to lend credence to my theory. What facts are supporting yours?

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    You should start writing for The Enquirer. Everything's a conspiracy with you or Seguin's banging someone's wife. There's zero reason to believe that PC and CJ aren't icing the team they think can win every night. The fact they reached 2 Finals in the last 3 years seems to lend credence to my theory. What facts are supporting yours?

     



    As per usual, just looking to start a fight with nothing to add to the conversation.  Learn to read: "Tough Job putting together the right mix, but it seems that Claude & PC get it right based on their success."

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to islamorada's comment:

    Sorry to mix sports but didn't Jackie Bradley Jr. look great in spring training. Hello Trotman and Subban as the comparison.   Svedberg is a victim of the JJ cap btw.  Thank goodness Seguin was not relegated to the AHL after his first season, heh?  Nonetheless I tend to agree with MeanE that the competition for spots is already predestined by CJ.  Hamilton will make the team imo.  Svedberg will be in Providence, yet OchoCinco could be press box bench sliver with occassional call ups from Providence.  Smith or Fraser as third line wingers is the only competition.  Spooner has the skills but what a waste on the third line.  He gets the call ups if a center is injured.  It is so nice to have the problems the Bs are having right now, certainly beats 2005-06.

     


    Should the Bruins try and move Spooner?   If he can't play the wing, and he is projected to be a top 2 center, should they move him for a big right winger that has the potential to develop into a 1st liner? Iginla's future is a question mark and Patrice & David aren't going anywhere anytime soon!  Is there a right winger out there that is stuck in a log jam like Ryan? If either Bergeron or Krejci gets injured, the B's are screwed anyhow, so they can always call up a Camper or have the Swede fill in at the pivot.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    it shouldn't be an open competition. why should it be. if tuukka plays horribly in camp and subban plays great should the Bs be looking to move tuukka? how about if bergeron has a bad couple weeks. No. maybe their entire careers should have something to do with it. not just a couple weeks of hockey. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    It's an open competition with the qualification that the team is looking at the organization as a whole, not just for one game or one season.  A player that is good may not make the team because it is in the best long-term interest of the team for him to wait a year or for the player himself; but building the best team possible is still the goal.

    Some players may get a bye based on other factors such as fan interest in a 2nd overall pick.  However, I would argue that Tylers Seguin had already dominated Junior and had nothing to gain by going back while Spooner had done nothing of the sort.  The team doesn't do their selection based soley on a traiing camp.  That would be stupid.

    There is also politics and nepotism involved.  I've encountered countless players who were given breaks ahead of others due to family or friend connections.  But that also has its limits as the decision-makers want to win above all else.  We saw both sides of this with Chris Bourque.

    With the Bruins under current management we have seen players push their way on to the team and push other players out frequently.  Guys like Lucic and Marchand have forced playing time and pushed out established vets.  Guys like Seguin or Hamilton may get playing time they don't necessarily desrve at the moment, but its for the long-term good of the club to get these clearly talented players adapted to the NHL as soon as possible.  The current Bruins offer honest opertunity as much or more than any other team in the league.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    @Mean I think you keep Spooner another year after his EL is up especially if he starts to so signs he can show take Kelly's spot. Think of it this way, Kelly does get back to 2011 form and then has a heck of a run. How about a trade on draft day for a 2nd rounder for a playoff proven, great 3rd line vet ?

    Betcha Tallon would give up a nice prospect or 2014 pick for Chris in the offseason. Spooner is going to be the main offensive guy in Providence and will pile up the points to start. I think Ryans next call up he breaks out.





     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to MeanE's comment:

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    You should start writing for The Enquirer. Everything's a conspiracy with you or Seguin's banging someone's wife. There's zero reason to believe that PC and CJ aren't icing the team they think can win every night. The fact they reached 2 Finals in the last 3 years seems to lend credence to my theory. What facts are supporting yours?

     

     



    As per usual, just looking to start a fight with nothing to add to the conversation.  Learn to read: "Tough Job putting together the right mix, but it seems that Claude & PC get it right based on their success."

     

    [/QUOTE]


    You can't have it both ways drama queen. They either ice the best team out of the available players or they don't. What pray tell, was this thread all about then? Thanks for the laugh too. You don't even know how funny I find the idea of writing a post which includes the words, "learn to read". Oh,the irony. Please tell me you at least get the joke.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Is there truly open competition?

    In response to OatesCam's comment:

    It's an open competition with the qualification that the team is looking at the organization as a whole, not just for one game or one season.  A player that is good may not make the team because it is in the best long-term interest of the team for him to wait a year or for the player himself; but building the best team possible is still the goal.

    Some players may get a bye based on other factors such as fan interest in a 2nd overall pick.  However, I would argue that Tylers Seguin had already dominated Junior and had nothing to gain by going back while Spooner had done nothing of the sort.  The team doesn't do their selection based soley on a traiing camp.  That would be stupid.

    There is also politics and nepotism involved.  I've encountered countless players who were given breaks ahead of others due to family or friend connections.  But that also has its limits as the decision-makers want to win above all else.  We saw both sides of this with Chris Bourque.

    With the Bruins under current management we have seen players push their way on to the team and push other players out frequently.  Guys like Lucic and Marchand have forced playing time and pushed out established vets.  Guys like Seguin or Hamilton may get playing time they don't necessarily desrve at the moment, but its for the long-term good of the club to get these clearly talented players adapted to the NHL as soon as possible.  The current Bruins offer honest opertunity as much or more than any other team in the league.




    Great post OC. All good points and very well put. Bravo!

     

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