Is This a Clean Hit?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 4everbruins. Show 4everbruins's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    Surprised Penner didn't see him coming, but I guess he was too busy focused on cutting to get the puck/himself to the net. Tough hit to take. I do think it's suspendable.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    I think hitting, fighting and nasty words should be taken out of hockey.  

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    I don't know San, it doesn't look blindside to me.  Also, I don't see charging, I don't see an elbow, I don't him leaving his feet prior to the check, and it doesn't look late.

    The only question to me is whether there was targeting of the head or not.  He got mostly the body which seems to be a key point for Shanny, but I do think he launches himself upwards at the point of impact to put that shoulder pad right under Penner's chin.

    So I could see it going either way.  It looks 'predatory', I guess, but I don't know exactly what rules were broken.  I think a fine or perhaps a game is the most likely outcome.




    Fletch, I saw it as charging for sure although he was very sneaky about it. He comes through the neutral zone at a good clip and then glides for a second before taking 2 more full strides before lift-off. You may very well be right about it being technically legal when seen frame by frame but that hit was greasy. I also question whether Shanny is making any progress in cleaning up the league because it sure seems like players are getting KO'ed more often than ever before. It seems like Matt Cooke is the only clean player in the league now.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to shuperman's comment:[QUOTE]

    I think hitting, fighting and nasty words should be taken out of hockey.  [/QUOTE]


    Especially "Eeak Blood!"

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    Garbutt left his feet to make the hit on the taller Penner - not that Penner's height should have anything to do with that type of hit unless one player is willfully aiming at the head area.  It's tough to see but it looks like Penner got caught in the area between his chin and chest. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    It was a greasy hit, no question.  I don't see how anyone would argue the "charging" call.  He came from the other side of the rink.  When he left his feet doesn't matter either, as that's only a question of timing, not intent.  Regardless, the game can't continue to debate the acceptability of this kind of stuff.  It has to go.

    Anyone here old enough to remember Roy McMurtry(spelling?).  I do, and am very uncomfortable with the notion of like-minded people running the game.  That's what will happen if the current stewardship can't get a handle, and slow this crap down.

    Seems like every day there's a new thread on here, with plenty of discussion.  If hockey freaks find this topic so titilating, imagine the disdain being thrown around by the vast majority who find the sport unneccesarily violent anyway.

    Pretty obvious suspensions aren't working.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011. Show StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?


    Both feet in the air at the moment of impact.....not a clean hit ....but not such a bad hit

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Pretty obvious suspensions aren't working.

    [/QUOTE]

    ^That would seem to be the clear and indisputable bottom line to all of this. 

    If there's a solution, we haven't found it yet.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    I know when i read about players getting suspended a lot of the articles will mention that '"Players name here' will forfeit $xxx,xxx amount of dollars for this suspesion". 

    Why not hit them harder in the wallet?

    Start taking away more money may get players to think twice?

    I dunno. Just an idea.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to DaveyN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I know when i read about players getting suspended a lot of the articles will mention that '"Players name here' will forfeit $xxx,xxx amount of dollars for this suspesion". 

    Why not hit them harder in the wallet?

    Start taking away more money may get players to think twice?

    I dunno. Just an idea.

    [/QUOTE]

    Davey, I'm not sure about the argument of 'hitting harder' with punishment in any way, based on two factors:

    1. The rulings now seem almost arbitrary.  The difference between a $100,000 fine and a $10,000 fine might be some crazy little nuance that only Shanahan can see, like a predatory look in a players eyes.

    2. I think many of the punishments are already too much.  Hits like Matt Cooke's could result in a 'forever suspension' and it wouldn't bother me, but in this haste to get tough with the problem, I see a lot of guys getting pretty severe punishments for hits that are somewhat questionable.  When a guy turns his back at the last second and then gets plowed, it doesn't seem right for the hitter to suddenly lose half of his salary.

    I think players are afraid of suspensions and fines already, but the concussions keep coming for a variety of reasons (speed of the game, failure of players to protect themselves, shoulder pads, etc. etc.  It's not just about illegal hits.

    Punishment just doesn't seem like an effective tool, all on its own.  I think Shanahan needs to stop hammering the square through the circle and start looking into some other approaches too.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to DaveyN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I know when i read about players getting suspended a lot of the articles will mention that '"Players name here' will forfeit $xxx,xxx amount of dollars for this suspesion". 

    Why not hit them harder in the wallet?

    Start taking away more money may get players to think twice?

    I dunno. Just an idea.

    [/QUOTE]

    Davey, I'm not sure about the argument of 'hitting harder' with punishment in any way, based on two factors:

    1. The rulings now seem almost arbitrary.  The difference between a $100,000 fine and a $10,000 fine might be some crazy little nuance that only Shanahan can see, like a predatory look in a players eyes.

    2. I think many of the punishments are already too much.  Hits like Matt Cooke's could result in a 'forever suspension' and it wouldn't bother me, but in this haste to get tough with the problem, I see a lot of guys getting pretty severe punishments for hits that are somewhat questionable.  When a guy turns his back at the last second and then gets plowed, it doesn't seem right for the hitter to suddenly lose half of his salary.

    I think players are afraid of suspensions and fines already, but the concussions keep coming for a variety of reasons (speed of the game, failure of players to protect themselves, shoulder pads, etc. etc.  It's not just about illegal hits.

    Punishment just doesn't seem like an effective tool, all on its own.  I think Shanahan needs to stop hammering the square through the circle and start looking into some other approaches too.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with this (and most of what you said)completely. Just not sure how else the league/Shanahan can do that and do it effectively with the NHLPA backing it.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    Definetlynot a blind side, came right at him but Penner has his head down until the last second. The only problem with this hit is Penner lied on the ice. If he gets up, nothing happens.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    the guy skates a half a mile to level a guy that isnt looking or expecting it = cheap hit, he could have let up a little and still knocked him down. the point is not to put someone into the 3rd row no matter how cool it looks on youtube, somebody is gonna get hurt really bad someday and nobody should wonder why.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to xdrive's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    the guy skates a half a mile to level a guy that isnt looking or expecting it = cheap hit, he could have let up a little and still knocked him down. the point is not to put someone into the 3rd row no matter how cool it looks on youtube, somebody is gonna get hurt really bad someday and nobody should wonder why.

    [/QUOTE]

    Like the Cody McLeod hit, there is guilt on both sides here.  You write that Penner "isn't looking or expecting it" -- that's HIS fault.  He should be looking.  

    He isn't off in the corner with his back turned, he is cutting to the very middle of the ice in the other team's defensive zone, with the puck, for God's sake.  And he's got his head down.  He's begging to get clobbered and gets hit almost directly from the front.

    Penner puts himself in a terrible position for self-protection.  You can't get away with coasting into the middle with your head down in beer league.

    Now, you can make the case that Garbutt was charging (dez did pretty convincingly) or Garbutt catches the chin with his shoulder pad making it a head shot.  I'm fine with punishment for that.

    But, this is why punishment alone isn't going to stop the concussions.  Players aren't protecting themselves, they're moving faster than ever, and they have hard plastic shells on their shoulders lead their hits with.  Nothing Shanahan does to Garbutt effects any of those factors at all.

    Penner, like Kronwall, really sets the bad hit up.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to xdrive's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    the guy skates a half a mile to level a guy that isnt looking or expecting it = cheap hit, he could have let up a little and still knocked him down. the point is not to put someone into the 3rd row no matter how cool it looks on youtube, somebody is gonna get hurt really bad someday and nobody should wonder why.

    [/QUOTE]

    Many players spend all game looking for opportunities like this.  I know I did.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

     

    Oh, absolutely!  And that's germane to the game; you have to have one skill level to stickhandle through traffic at his speed while staring at the puck, and a much, much higher skill level to do the same thing with your head up and aware of the guys who are trying to turn you into a fine red mist.  I've seen kids in peewee make amazing rushes while staring at the puck; I've only seen guys like Crosby, Malkin, Bure make those same rushes with their heads up from start to finish.  And I've seen a lot of guys in between get blown up.

    I begin to wonder if "player safety" is partly to blame for this.  More and more, the players are expecting to be protected by the rules, the refs, the threat of suspension, so they have less and less respect for the threat of getting crushed, and that starts to extend into less respect in general.  It would be consistent with what we've seen with full cages and guys not respecting the damage that can happen from an errant stick.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    So I get it, if you see someone on the ice skating at full speed then you should then capulate or be decapitated.  Me thinks hockey was not that type of thinking even 30 years ago so why now?  Please expalin blindside.  Scheiye, I sound like Bill Clinton explaining sex.  Nonetheless explain. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    Oh how times have changed.  Vulnerable is laughable.  Why are you vulnerable?  Bc your head is up your #bumbum.  The term heads up used to mean something.  you wanna put yourself in the vulnerable position you get plastered.  Big hits always used to be a part of the game.  Its slowly gonna be taken out completely.  look at what kronwall does.  Look what boyle did.  Sure the would  be hitter shouldnt do those hits but who is putting boyle one of the brst skaters in the planet in that position.  And why doesnt he know whos on the ice.   Players used to skate around hoping someone would be vulnerable.  Dont put your head down bc that guy will take your head off.  When that is on keep your head up.   

    The league took holding up the forecheck to make the game exciting for the morons in the US who dont understand what hockey is.  They took out the center ice as well.   how is a dman not to get plastered with the new rules.  its an nfl kickoff on dmen.  Those hits are gonna continue unless they allow a little bit of holdups.  Heck they wont even let the goalies help them out.   Kill dmen is the name game.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    So hockey is not played by faster, more agile, and better conditioned players!  Don't buy that!  I am the first to say if a player is not cognizant of the other players then he is a victim.  The problem is the players are more predatory than years ago even with the likes of Eddie Shore and Maurice the Rocket Richard.  Average palyers with $$ signs think differently than those likes even than their lesser peers.  I am baiting the fish, yet there is no one biting but you Shupe.  The others are just wuzzy!  You must see me point! 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    I am surprized by that reply.  I thought Floridah would have influenced your NE hard hat mentality. 

     

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to xdrive's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    the guy skates a half a mile to level a guy that isnt looking or expecting it = cheap hit, he could have let up a little and still knocked him down. the point is not to put someone into the 3rd row no matter how cool it looks on youtube, somebody is gonna get hurt really bad someday and nobody should wonder why.

    [/QUOTE]

    Many players spend all game looking for opportunities like this.  I know I did.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to islamorada's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So hockey is not played by faster, more agile, and better conditioned players!  Don't buy that!  I am the first to say if a player is not cognizant of the other players then he is a victim.  The problem is the players are more predatory than years ago even with the likes of Eddie Shore and Maurice the Rocket Richard.  Average palyers with $$ signs think differently than those likes even than their lesser peers.  I am baiting the fish, yet there is no one biting but you Shupe.  The others are just wuzzy!  You must see me point! 

    [/QUOTE]


    I'd like Bogie to respond to that (and to other players like Howe or Makita and the like) I think he may have a different opinion.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    I did not see those players, but I have seen the game on video. Slow!  Certain players though could play in the NHL today, my point, the average players are predatory!  Head hunting with helmuts, gear, and $$$$.  I love the new game but things need to be different.  Longer suspensions.   BTW I think fighting should never be eliminated.  I also think the instigator rule is dumb.  Bogie would like those conditons.  Lastly Red, are you calling me old.  I will.... ha.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to islamorada's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I did not see those players, but I have seen the game on video. Slow!  Certain players though could play in the NHL today, my point, the average players are predatory!  Head hunting with helmuts, gear, and $$$$.  I love the new game but things need to be different.  Longer suspensions.   BTW I think fighting should never be eliminated.  I also think the instigator rule is dumb.  Bogie would like those conditons.  Lastly Red, are you calling me old.  I will.... ha.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Slow?  How are we to know if coffee and orr and guy were slow compared to the new generation.  ever think old tv made it look slow?   Id put coffee messier bure mogilny gartner up against any of todays skaters.   I think the overall talent is likely better based on skating.  I think the victims in most of these incidents are not paying attention and are also putting themselves in vulnerable positions.  The rules have changed to open the game up, which also elivates speed levels.  Older players didnt wear helmet and there was more respect then now.  You could hold up for your dman.  

    I think a team of roy, orr, coffee, gretzky, mario, messier would destroy any combo of 6 you could put together today.   

    I would like to see goalies to be able to play the puck again, not every goalie was great with the puck but it sure is nice to have a marty brodeur help out...it was a skill he was excellent at, why penalize that guy bc of it.  I think the dmen should be able to hold up the forechecker some as well.  Im 100 percent in favor of fighting.  Im 100 percent against skating clowns.  Reduce the gear, no one needs upper body armour.  Higher suspensions is fine but the nhlpa would never go for it.   

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    In response to islamorada's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I did not see those players, but I have seen the game on video. Slow!  Certain players though could play in the NHL today, my point, the average players are predatory!  Head hunting with helmuts, gear, and $$$$.  I love the new game but things need to be different.  Longer suspensions.   BTW I think fighting should never be eliminated.  I also think the instigator rule is dumb.  Bogie would like those conditons.  Lastly Red, are you calling me old.  I will.... ha.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Name the avg players that are predatory.  I dont think its higher.  I think each team has a few.  i also think there are teams that have minimal.  are marchand or lucic predators?   

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Is This a Clean Hit?

    The average players were slow compared to those star players of the 80's, and 70's, etc.  The average players today though do have more skating speed. Training.  The talent is another question.  Listening to Stephan Walkom the other night on the NHL network, he stated many officials played the game and had the speed but not the skills.  My point, the "JAGs" do skate faster and given the lack of respect if you will by some of those skaters the result is injuries and dumas penalties.  It is frustrating as I like the hitting of the NHL but I do not like win at all costs attitude of some players.  Your points are understood Shupe nonetheless.   

     
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