I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BsLegion's comment:[QUOTE]

    Right between the numbers and leaps off his skates. Elbow has direct connection to Schenn's head, no shoulder as a buffer at all.

    Yep they are the same hit alright.[/QUOTE]


    This is not even close to Lucic's hit on Emelin.  He leaves his feet way before the contact to make the hit.  Like I said on the other thread only one skate slightly leaves the ice at point of contact. [/QUOTE]


    This is the whole argument for Shup, he actually thinks the hits are the same.

    Baffling isn't the word. There is now way for Schenn or any other defenseman to go into the boards facing out towards the play. The defenseman shoots the puck up the boards to start the breakout or back behind the net to his D partner.

    [/QUOTE]

    If you would post the right hit we could talk about it.  The hit you have is on weaver.  The hit i want was the bottom one where lucic gets off the ice.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The videos aren't loading for me, but if you mean the Wilson hit on Schenn from Dec. 17th, the link is here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Ldu2k0oKU

    Does anyone want to tell me Schenn doesn't violate a fundamental rule - you don't double back and turn your back when you're about to get hit - it has always been a recipe for disaster.  Schenn reverses direction to avoid Wilson and fails.  He fails because he's moving lardass slow.  If he wanted to avoid getting blown up legally, he should have moved the puck.  Freeze the video at about :56 seconds and look at the options he has to move the puck, making a hit from Wilson far less of an option.  If he taps it behind the net for his defenseman, this doesn't happen.  He chooses to try to hold on to the puck and make Wilson miss by turning his back to him.  That's just dumb.

    The rules on stuff like this need language that emphasizes dual responsibility. Get Grapes in a room and have him list the top 12 stupid things he has told you kids never to do on Coaches Corner, and make these the baseline for players to take responsibility for their own safety.  Then the rules on player safety and supplementary discipline that make players responsible for each other's automatically come into effect if the 'victim' has not done one of these dumb things.  Don't admire your pass.  Don't try to come out on the short side of the net.  Don't get on the trolley tracks and cut to the middle at the blueline.  Don't turn your back to a forechecker in a race for the puck.  Do any of this, and then there should only be scrutiny of whether or not there was unreasonable malice.

    There are just certain things that you cannot do and expect not to get hurt.  These are fundamental, nature-of-the-game things you have to learn as you go up through the system from tyke and peewee.

    [/QUOTE]

    Bingo!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    "Get Grapes in a room and have him list (HIS) the top 12 stupid things he has told you kids never to do on Coaches Corner, and make these the baseline for players to take responsibility for their own safety."

     

    I'll listen right after he gives a clinic on a proper or easy line change.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to shuperman's comment:[QUOTE] This is the whole argument for Shup, he actually thinks the hits are the same.

    Baffling isn't the word. There is now way for Schenn or any other defenseman to go into the boards facing out towards the play. The defenseman shoots the puck up the boards to start the breakout or back behind the net to his D partner.[/QUOTE]

    If you would post the right hit we could talk about it.  The hit you have is on weaver.  The hit i want was the bottom one where lucic gets off the ice.  [/QUOTE]


    Fletch, Legion and I are posting about the Yemlin hit. If you can't copy n paste it over here then I can't help you. But that is moot anyway becuase we are discussing that hit without the GIF.

    #A$$wipe

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    3.  Make the play and quickly turn to the side...to lessen the blow.

     

     

    ^This is the one I miss.  Guys used to come in with speed, chip the puck one way and cut hard to other way.  The hitter would come crashing in and miss the puck and player.  Now guys seem to turn their back and wait for the hitter to miss them, because he's not supposed to hit someone from behind.

    Total respect for Kronwell this year when he took a weird last second turn and got cranked by Cody McLeod from behind into the boards, knocking him out.  McLeod was suspended.  When asked about the hit Kronwall said "Don't remember it, but just watched replay.  My fault.  Not sure what I was doing there".  

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    We teach the kids to come in at an angle to get the puck. I've had to watch countless hours of video on per USA hockey.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    PS. The weaver hit is fine.  But shoulder does connect with head.  Everyone under the sun debated head hits regardless.  Now they are ok.  I confuse easily. 

    [/QUOTE]

    The debate is usually ill-informed.  The rules apply when the principle point of contact is the head.  Lucic catches a bit of Weaver's head with his shoulder, by 90 of the transfer of momentum is body on body.  The Emelin hit is different for a variety of reasons, not least that Emelin stops just as Lucic is about to hit him.  90 of Lucic's hit goes right into the boards, but Emelin's stop left his head sticking forward.  No idea how Lucic is supposed to avoid that situation.  If he can't go looking for that hit on the forecheck, we're playing ice soccer within 5 years.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    The other part of this is that I'm thoroughly convinced the rise in this is deliberate - a direct result of players creating unsafe situations for competitive reasons.  If player A turns his back and gains an advantage on the cycle or breakout because of it, he wins; if he gets blown up and his team goes on the PP for 2, 5, or 12 because of it, he wins even if he's injured occasionally.  These are guys who will throw their bodies in front of a 100mph piece of vulcanized rubber over and over again, take vicious blows from reinforced fibreglass including to the face, and race around an extremely slippery surface with knives on their feet at 30+mph in an enclosure surrounded by reinforced, immovable barriers.  How bad will the occasional blast to the numbers be compared to that?

    I don't think the risk of injury is any kind of deterrent.

    Similarly, it sure seems like the number of these incidents has gone through the roof in just a few years.  When Hunter jacked Turgeon, if was like seeing a unicorn.  Now it's nightly.  Compare the argument about how long players think it will take to get used to other safety considerations like visors or smaller pads.  Those things, we are given to understand, will take forever for players to adopt.  But behaviour changed swiftly once it was clear you could offer up the back and either buy time or buy a boarding major.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    PS. The weaver hit is fine.  But shoulder does connect with head.  Everyone under the sun debated head hits regardless.  Now they are ok.  I confuse easily. 



    The debate is usually ill-informed.  The rules apply when the principle point of contact is the head.  Lucic catches a bit of Weaver's head with his shoulder, by 90 of the transfer of momentum is body on body.  The Emelin hit is different for a variety of reasons, not least that Emelin stops just as Lucic is about to hit him.  90 of Lucic's hit goes right into the boards, but Emelin's stop left his head sticking forward.  No idea how Lucic is supposed to avoid that situation.  If he can't go looking for that hit on the forecheck, we're playing ice soccer within 5 years.

    [/QUOTE]

    Agreed. But for the past two yrs everyone ripped Torres.  i remember the hit on eberle especially.  Torres was going to finish hit.  Eberle reaches fwd.  torres plasters him then answes the bell(people love this term).  

    I agree on the Weaver hit.  i think Lucic left his feet on the Yemelin hit.  Thats how he avoids it.  I think yemelin braced for impact like he should bc on the constant forecheck.  He was either going head first or shoulder to shoulder.  .  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "Get Grapes in a room and have him list (HIS) the top 12 stupid things he has told you kids never to do on Coaches Corner, and make these the baseline for players to take responsibility for their own safety."

     

    I'll listen right after he gives a clinic on a proper or easy line change.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pick your coach, then, and I'm betting he'd sign off on the same list as Grapes.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    I don't think anyone disagrees with the OP much.  The problem is judgement.  There is none.  Most people want to pigeon hole the problem as totally driven by the predator, or the victim, and of course that just accelerates the problem.  I would agree that players aren't playing the game as carefully as they used to...I agree they'll do anything to get an advantage, but it's not nearly that simple.

    The confusion isn't surprising when even a small group of self proclaimed hockey zealots.... have numerous opinions and interpretations on every hit out there.

    The league only recently summoned the gonads to infer a player somewhat "deserved" his fate.  That's something a lot of people don't want to hear, and it's a PR nightmare.

    The league has to get a handle on what is acceptable physical contact, pass that onto the officials, then spend considerable time and effort educating the masses.

    Not confident it'll happen, as litigation has long since passed sport as our countries favorite  pastime.  Seems the league is most interested in side-stepping every potential lawsuit, as a result of injury.  Unfortunately, that's somewhat understandable.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:[QUOTE]"Get Grapes in a room and have him list (HIS) the top 12 stupid things he has told you kids never to do on Coaches Corner, and make these the baseline for players to take responsibility for their own safety."

    I'll listen right after he gives a clinic on a proper or easy line change.[/QUOTE]


    Pick your coach, then, and I'm betting he'd sign off on the same list as Grapes. [/QUOTE]


    How you lose money is up to you of course. I'd rather not listen to or read about how great a coach Grapes thought he was but rather what his players, like Espo, said about him.

    Laviolette, Herb Brooks, Badger Bob and for good meaure Rick Bowness.

    Let me know when you can send the money.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Right between the numbers and leaps off his skates. Elbow has direct connection to Schenn's head, no shoulder as a buffer at all.

    Yep they are the same hit alright.

    [/QUOTE]


    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to nrguy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it.

    [/QUOTE]

    It like the chicken and the egg....  Schenn's actions are debatable . On the otherhand there's not reason for Orlov to leave his skated 4feet before the hit and drive his forearm behind the neck of Schenn.  This is where the hit becomes wrong.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to nrguy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Right between the numbers and leaps off his skates. Elbow has direct connection to Schenn's head, no shoulder as a buffer at all.

    Yep they are the same hit alright.

    [/QUOTE]


    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't agree.  He was slowing up to A-frame the puck, like lots of players do when they're going into the boards ahead of a forechecker.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to nrguy's comment:[QUOTE]

    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it. [/QUOTE]


    Schenn goes to the corner with the intent to get the puck over to his partner to start the breakout and prevent the forechecker from getting the puck. Looks down at the puck, shovels the puck to his defensive partner and then gets crushed.

    But I'm supposed to believe that either Schenn should turn back towards the oncoming player so he's not vulnerable while taking his eye off the puck or give the puck to the opposing player so he doesn't put himself in a vulnerable position.

    Got it and thank you for straightening that out.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:[QUOTE]"Get Grapes in a room and have him list (HIS) the top 12 stupid things he has told you kids never to do on Coaches Corner, and make these the baseline for players to take responsibility for their own safety."

    I'll listen right after he gives a clinic on a proper or easy line change.[/QUOTE]


    Pick your coach, then, and I'm betting he'd sign off on the same list as Grapes. [/QUOTE]


    How you lose money is up to you of course. I'd rather not listen to or read about how great a coach Grapes thought he was but rather what his players, like Espo, said about him.

    Laviolette, Herb Brooks, Badger Bob and for good meaure Rick Bowness.

    Let me know when you can send the money.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure, let's ask two dead guys what they think. Tell you what, you send them an email and if they get back to you, we'll talk about how much I need to send you ... right after you get my grandmother on the line.

    I'd also like video evidence of Laviolette or Bowness saying players should admire their passes, reverse directions along the end boards when the forecheck is coming, try to skate out the short side of the net, turn their back to on-coming players, ride the trolley tracks.  The thought of it makes me think Will Ferrell playing Bowness and Vince Vaughn as Laviolette. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    That's right it's Schenn's fault trying to get the puck to his defensive partner. I mean any coach, you name ,would want him to make sure he's not vulnerable. Instead of get the puck out of your defensive zone.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    I'm guessing this is the conceptual framework for the SanDog School of Hockey:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83MEuLoz9Y

    Schenn didn't have to choose one or the other.  Orlov is an idiot regardless on that one, though.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5YkiRuTC4

     

    Book - Proud supporter of Grapes coaching expertise.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to nrguy's comment:[QUOTE]

    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it. [/QUOTE]


    Schenn goes to the corner with the intent to get the puck over to his partner to start the breakout and prevent the forechecker from getting the puck. Looks down at the puck, shovels the puck to his defensive partner and then gets crushed.

    But I'm supposed to believe that either Schenn should turn back towards the oncoming player so he's not vulnerable while taking his eye off the puck or give the puck to the opposing player so he doesn't put himself in a vulnerable position.

    Got it and thank you for straightening that out.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, since you're inviting being straightened out, that's Brayden, not Luke, because he is the forechecker.  The play happened with the Flyers in the offensive zone; that's what Orlov, a defenseman, is doing there.  Schenn has a hundred options on that play from the time he stops skating and glides to the boards and looks over his shoulder at Orlov, and when he gets boarded. 

    There's no question it's a major for boarding because of everything Orlov does, but between this and the Wilson hit we have two examples of the same idiot turning his back when he knows a guys is coming and getting blown up for it. 

    He's also not "A-framing" whatever the he!! that's supposed to mean.  He's not using his body to protect the puck - he's using his back to protect his body.  He never gets over the puck to establish position - it's all about moving the puck and not getting hit.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5YkiRuTC4

     

    Book - Proud supporter of Grapes coaching expertise.

    [/QUOTE]

    So weak, SanDog.  So weak.  Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  Grapes is beside the point.  You want me to take Grapes out of it, fine.  If you went through the player safety material from coaching certification programs, you'd probably end up with a pretty common list of things players are coached not to do in order to protect themselves.  Better?  Does that get you back on topic?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to nrguy's comment:[QUOTE]

    Textbook what I was talking about (in an albeit garbled sentence). There is 0 reason for Schenn to turn his back to the ice. The only reason he does it is to avoid a hit.

    Schenn 100% could have played the puck and avoided a potentially dangerous hit to the numbers. Instead he slowed down, turned towards the boards and used his positioning to prevent a legal it. [/QUOTE]


    Schenn goes to the corner with the intent to get the puck over to his partner to start the breakout and prevent the forechecker from getting the puck. Looks down at the puck, shovels the puck to his defensive partner and then gets crushed.

    But I'm supposed to believe that either Schenn should turn back towards the oncoming player so he's not vulnerable while taking his eye off the puck or give the puck to the opposing player so he doesn't put himself in a vulnerable position.

    Got it and thank you for straightening that out.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, since you're inviting being straightened out, that's Brayden, not Luke, because he is the forechecker.  The play happened with the Flyers in the offensive zone; that's what Orlov, a defenseman, is doing there.  Schenn has a hundred options on that play from the time he stops skating and glides to the boards and looks over his shoulder at Orlov, and when he gets boarded. 

    There's no question it's a major for boarding because of everything Orlov does, but between this and the Wilson hit we have two examples of the same idiot turning his back when he knows a guys is coming and getting blown up for it. 

    He's also not "A-framing" whatever the he!! that's supposed to mean.  He's not using his body to protect the puck - he's using his back to protect his body.  He never gets over the puck to establish position - it's all about moving the puck and not getting hit.

    [/QUOTE]

    By "A-frame" I mean he's using his body to protect the puck.  He slows down and plants his feet, not expecting to get nailed, of course.  I don't think he has many options.  If he comes in fast he risks mishandling the puck.  I think he could have jumped out of the way after making the pass, but 1) he didn't realize Orlov was going to maul him, and 2) if he jumps and gets hit in mid air, he could be hurt even more.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    NAS 

    Just like skating with your head down, when does a player take responsibiltiy for his actions.  "The don't hit a player in the numbers" is a good thing to teach, but the lesson must go along with your list as to why.  As to comment on your list, #1 made me smile with Normand Leveille shoulder check on my mind.  It was devastating for such a small player.  

    If you are going to get the puck with an attacker on you, you have options.

    1.  Push back against the attacker to lessen the blow.

    2.  Get your damn arms up to lessen the blow.

    3.  Make the play and quickly turn to the side...to lessen the blow.

    4.  Take a slightly different route to avoid facing the boards TO LESSEN THE BLOW.

    Or

    You can face the boards, get cranked, and have all of the namby pambies lose their minds.

    Now, I'm not talking about a guy getting destroyed when he doesn't know the hit is coming.  I'm talking about the guys (and you know exactly the type of play I'm talking about) who do it intentionally to avoid getting hit.

    F them.




     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to islamorada's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    NAS 

    Just like skating with your head down, when does a player take responsibiltiy for his actions.  "The don't hit a player in the numbers" is a good thing to teach, but the lesson must go along with your list as to why.  As to comment on your list, #1 made me smile with Normand Leveille shoulder check on my mind.  It was devastating for such a small player.  

    If you are going to get the puck with an attacker on you, you have options.

    1.  Push back against the attacker to lessen the blow.

    2.  Get your damn arms up to lessen the blow.

    3.  Make the play and quickly turn to the side...to lessen the blow.

    4.  Take a slightly different route to avoid facing the boards TO LESSEN THE BLOW.

    Or

    You can face the boards, get cranked, and have all of the namby pambies lose their minds.

    Now, I'm not talking about a guy getting destroyed when he doesn't know the hit is coming.  I'm talking about the guys (and you know exactly the type of play I'm talking about) who do it intentionally to avoid getting hit.

    F them.




    [/QUOTE]

    I don't know what was is Schenn's mind, and I'm not crazy about him in general.  But:

     

    1) that's what he was trying to do, and would have worked if Orlov didn't turn into a missle;

    2) I agree -- he was guilty of watching the pass and could have put his arms up

    3) I don't think he had tme to turn to the side unless he rushed the pass

    4) A different route would have slowed him down, so her'd have to rush the pass

     

    The Bs do this all the time, make the pass and then take the hit.  I still don't think Schenn was turnng his back in order to get a penalty.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: I've Had Enough. I'm Blaming The Victims

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:[QUOTE]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5YkiRuTC4

     

    Book - Proud supporter of Grapes coaching expertise.[/QUOTE]

    If you went through the player safety material from coaching certification programs, you'd probably end up with a pretty common list of things players are coached not to do in order to protect themselves.  Better?  Does that get you back on topic? [/QUOTE]


    Just having some fun with you. I agree mostly with what you have to say.

    If Grapes had a summer hockey camp out your way, when you were growing up, would you have gone ?

     
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