Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    I don't come on here as often, but it's somewhat funny to see so many threads on Kessel still even now that we're into the 3rd year of that infamous transaction.

    I did start coming ont his forum as a result of that transaction as I didn't really know much about Kessel or his background at the time.

    Here are the facts and my own (somewhat biased - I am a Leaf fan) observations
    1. Kessel was NOT traded for Seguin, Knight and Hamilton.  Making a comparsion as if it was a trade is silly.  Leafs made the deal thinking they'd finish higher and the 2 1st rounders would be middle of the pack which makes them a crap-shoot.
    However, that ofcourse didn't happen.  So kudos go to PC who banked on the Leafs tanking (which they did - 2 years in a row pretty much).
    As a result, the Bruins win this trade easily with a Cup to boot.  Can't debate that any longer in my opinion.  Leafs got a really good scorer, but at too high a price.  I really like watching Kessel play, but I don't make that deal at the stage the Leafs were at.
    2. Kessel can score 30 goals in his sleep and there in lies the problem.  If he succeeds in becoming a more rounded player (like he's showing so far in the early going this year) he can be an impact player.  No denying his release and skating is among the best in the league.  His compete level?  So good so far this year, but we've seen it before.  He looks injury free (shoulder problems have plagued him last couple of years).  He is certainly fast and has scored a number of highlight reel goals.  However, his history is not so good when it comes defensively (although he suffers from a general lack of good team defense) and he goes into deep slumps (although going back to last year I think he's recorded points in 17 or 18 straight games now).
    3. Burke completely mis-calculated this deal to make that offer for Kessel in the first place.  Kessel is a significant compliment to a team looking to get over the top, Kessel is not (at least not yet - although he shows flashes) a player that can do it all on his own.  Leafs did not have the talent to surround someone like Kessel.  I think that's a trade you make maybe next year when the Leafs should be better.  Could be wrong here, but I wouldn't have made that deal when they did.  He could have painted PC in a corner.
    4. Seguin is going to be a periennial all-star.  If Seguin was a Leaf, Burke would NOT trade him straight-up for Kessel (although I don't think he'd admit that....LOL).  I don't think any GM would.  That's not to say that Kessel isn't going to have a good career (he likely will) but Seguin has more upside at his age then Kessel did. Anything can happen, but I like what Seguin brings to the table and I like how Kessel is playing.  They are different players surrounded by different mix of talent. Seguin would have struggled early on with the Leafs due to lack of team talent and over-bearing media.  Boston is a much better fit for him to succeed.  Not sure why Kessel (who is very media shy) would want to come in the Leaf Lion's den, but that's where we are today.
    4. I'm not sure Knight makes this Bruin team, but he's good fodder for a future trade.  Hamilton looks like he could be special, at least offensively.  Only time will tell.  Bruins did really well on this deal.  Leafs should have waited longer.  PC wouldn't have paid Kessel the money he wanted and it would have put him in a corner over time.  Burke was dumb to not wait on this, maybe even 1 more year.  Again, kudos to PC and shame on Burke for not being more patient.
    5. Kessel has the potential to be a Rocket Richard winner, but a lot depends on health and the strength of his linemates.  Bozak is starting to play well and Lupal is a good plugger, but not sure that trio can keep up what they're doing in the early going.
    6. Kessel is NOT a selfish player like he's made out to be here.  Granted, perhaps he's selfish in terms of trying to secure the best contract, but he is a very good passer and often makes passes when he should be shooting.  Kessel's overall offensive talent, including passing, is under-rated from what I've seen in the last couple of years.  Having said that, I still think Seguin has the potential to be a much better overall offensive player (if he plays center, especially).

    So there it is.  I doubt this will end the debate, but I thought I pass along my thoughts.

    Prediction:  If healthy, Kessel scores 42 goals and 85 points overall.  Seguin will get 70 points in his sophmore year (which is very good).  Next year Seguin will be top 15 in scoring.

    Cheers

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from IrishMob7. Show IrishMob7's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    Great post. Good luck trying to get through to some of these thick-skulls. But do us all a favor and take Cactus Tonia back to the Leafs website so we don't have to deal with these bone-headed discussions.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    Great post. Good luck trying to get through to some of these thick-skulls. But do us all a favor and take Cactus Tonia back to the Leafs website so we don't have to deal with these bone-headed discussions.
    Posted by IrishMob7

    Sorry can't really do anything about Trolls (here or on the Leaf Forum).
    They're everywhere!!! LOL.

    I just ignore them
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hockguy0818. Show Hockguy0818's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    Tricks are for kids
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    seems like a great time to put this discussion to bed...oh i make myself laugh sometimes!  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    To be honest, I only continue to take the Kessel bait because I really dislike him.  Even when I can't deny he has talent and gets results - I just don't like him.

    To paraphrase Samuel Jackson, I'm glad he's gone and I hope he burns in Toronto.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    Bb007...i'd have had a harder time with the whole thing if he wanted to stay in boston, and pc let him go. he wanted out... good ridance. hope he had fun watching the bruins cup parade! i did
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    Bb007...i'd have had a harder time with the whole thing if he wanted to stay in boston, and pc let him go. he wanted out... good ridance. hope he had fun watching the bruins cup parade! i did
    Posted by adkbeesfan


    That's always been part of my logic too. I believe that Kessel is a better player in Toronto than he would've been in Boston.  It reminds me of when Clemens went to Toronto after years of seeming bored and uninspired in Boston.  With the move and a huge contract came the ego-stroke and motivation each guy needed to get in better shape and come with a better attitude.  I don't think Kessel ever would have found that inspiration in Boston, where he was never a top guy and was disliked by the coach for his style of play.  I think that for Kessel to play like a star, he needs to be treated like a star first, and that wasn't happening in Boston.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bruinfaninnewjersey. Show Bruinfaninnewjersey's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    Not a fan of Kessel. Wish these posts would stop. Can't help reading though cause I love hockey.

    GO BRUINS!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LUCICmilan17. Show LUCICmilan17's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits : That's allows been part of my logic too. I believe that Kessel is a better player in Toronto than he would've been in Boston.  It reminds me of when Clemens went to Toronto after years of seeming bored and uninspired in Boston.  With the move and a huge contract came the ego-stroke and motivation each guy needed to get in better shape and come with a better attitude.  I don't think Kessel ever would have found that inspiration in Boston, where he was never a top guy and was disliked by the coach for his style of play.  I think that for Kessel to play like a star, he needs to be treated like a star first, and that wasn't happening in Boston.
    Posted by Fletcher1



    It was all about roger getting on the juice when he left boston plain and simple. If you don't beleive me if it was all about a change of city look up his last season with the red sox. You would think a guy going into his free agent year would wana do better to make more money on the open market. Douquette made clemens mad after he left and roger juiced.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ksp57. Show ksp57's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    Great post. Good luck trying to get through to some of these thick-skulls. But do us all a favor and take Cactus Tonia back to the Leafs website so we don't have to deal with these bone-headed discussions.
    Posted by IrishMob7


    DON'T mention that name or that moron is sure to post today.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits : It was all about roger getting on the juice when he left boston plain and simple. If you don't beleive me if it was all about a change of city look up his last season with the red sox. You would think a guy going into his free agent year would wana do better to make more money on the open market. Douquette made clemens mad after he left and roger juiced.
    Posted by LUCICmilan17


    Sure, but the juicing and the whole new training regimen were motivated by the move to a new team and a whole new determination to prove himself again.  That wasn't happening in Boston.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bluefox70. Show bluefox70's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits


    What is a Kessel? He is a cupless Seguin.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ksp57. Show ksp57's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    What is a Kessel? He is a cupless Seguin.
    Posted by bluefox70


    Classic. And he always will be or at least till he jumps ship from Toronto to a team that might actually win the Cup before he retires.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macfact. Show Macfact's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    I think that speaks volumes. Kessel is not a game changer. Talent or not he will never carry a team on his back to win a Cup. He is like so many gifted players that don't realize they are great as far as the system they work in but not so good that they can single handly win it all. The verdict on Seguin is still out if he can do it on his own. Probably not. Tim Thomas has carried this team and right now Seguin is showing true passion and committment. Fasten your seat belts he will be an Elite player but will he be a Ray or Bobby we will have to see. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tylerwhidden. Show tylerwhidden's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    I hate when people LOL themselves.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheatskins. Show Wheatskins's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    LRH, it's a long-winded analysis but I agree with all of it.

    Your one sentence sums it up totally:

    "If Seguin was a Leaf, Burke would NOT trade him straight-up for Kessel (although I don't think he'd admit that....LOL).  I don't think any GM would."

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 4everbruins. Show 4everbruins's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    "However, that ofcourse didn't happen.  So kudos go to PC who banked on the Leafs tanking (which they did - 2 years in a row pretty much)."

    It's 7 yrs. in a row isn't it? Sorry, couldn't resist...

    Maybe this year they'll finally get back to the playoffs...........I hope so for your sake LRH.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BorisTheGorilla. Show BorisTheGorilla's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    Kessel will get 40 goals, but about 25 assists.  He's the modern-day Petr Klima.  Great scorer, but extremely one dimensional. 

    Seguin has impressed me incredibly.  He's taken the bull by the horns.  I'm sure some Oilers fans are wondering if Hall was the best player in the draft.  THAT'S how much of a force Seguin is.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    I liked Kessel as a legit scorer, he was horrible on defense in those Boston days. He did not respond to the coach as Seguin did last year, humbled and introspective.  So, LRH, I hope you are correct that Kessel has matured and moved on to be a more well rounded player.  I will watch him on NHL center ice to see if he truly has developed that game.  Meanwhile, LRH, please contribute as Kennedy97.  Nice to read differing views on hockey with respect to the forum you are visiting.  BTW the Bs are your second best team, correct?  I hope 49-North can read your entries and learn how to make legitimate contributions without the typical homerism.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    What is a Kessel? He is a cupless Seguin. Posted by bluefox70


    ^Nice!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 86redsox. Show 86redsox's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    kess only needs half a cup anyways.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoyalBlackNGold. Show LoyalBlackNGold's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    "Kessel is NOT a selfish player like he's made out to be here.  Granted, perhaps he's selfish in terms of trying to secure the best contract, but he is a very good passer and often makes passes when he should be shooting.  Kessel's overall offensive talent, including passing, is under-rated from what I've seen in the last couple of years"

    this part was my favorite! for full disclosure i will admit i hate phil kessel the hockey player! he is cancer on skates. try an find one quote from a teammate that goes to bat for  kessel as a teammate. ya u would have better luck getting a good post out of the cactus tards!!
    last year is the the perfect kessel year- another year he doesn't top the 36 goals here he had under julian.
    another year were kessel manages to finish -20 plus minus but never played on the penalty kill! 
    and as for the quote from your post the best part is" he is a very good passer and often makes passes when he should be shooting" haha so u really think that phil the thrill should have shot more then 325 times that he did last year!!!! kessel ranked fourth in shots taken last year but your right he should have shot more? wow
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RascalHoudi. Show RascalHoudi's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    LRH..  lenghty and thorough analysis and pretty well bang one.

    If I may add one point that I think is also very important when viewing the whole transaction...

    Kessel is halfway through his 5 year contract.  When it expires at the end of 2013/14 he will be a UFA.  I have no doubt that he will bolt from the Toronto media spotlight for all the $$$ he can harvest and to get away from the scrutiny.

    Once that happens, the benefits are over for the Leafs.  With a lot of luck the Leafs may be a contending team by then and finally be able to benefit from the Sniper Phil skills in their lineup, but they'll be bidding him adieu by the end of 2014.

    And the Bruins will still have Seguin, Knight and Hamilton. (barring trades of course)



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ingrizzlebizzles. Show ingrizzlebizzles's posts

    Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits

    In Response to Re: Kessel versus Seguin Debate? - Silly Rabbits:
    "Kessel is NOT a selfish player like he's made out to be here.  Granted, perhaps he's selfish in terms of trying to secure the best contract, but he is a very good passer and often makes passes when he should be shooting.  Kessel's overall offensive talent, including passing, is under-rated from what I've seen in the last couple of years" this part was my favorite! for full disclosure i will admit i hate phil kessel the hockey player! he is cancer on skates. try an find one quote from a teammate that goes to bat for  kessel as a teammate. ya u would have better luck getting a good post out of the cactus tards!! last year is the the perfect kessel year- another year he doesn't top the 36 goals here he had under julian. another year were kessel manages to finish -20 plus minus but never played on the penalty kill!  and as for the quote from your post the best part is" he is a very good passer and often makes passes when he should be shooting" haha so u really think that phil the thrill should have shot more then 325 times that he did last year!!!! kessel ranked fourth in shots taken last year but your right he should have shot more? wow
    Posted by LoyalBlackNGold

    +/- only applies in even strength situations, although you can get a +1 for a shortie, I guess.

     
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