Lucic/Horton

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
    Once David and Savy are back it going to get very scarey for the other teams D. Posted by ddd112273


    They will be better than the 08'-09' team. Horton + Seguin + Caron + Boychuk + Campbell - Phillaparazzi - WIDE MAN - Axelsson - Yelle - Sobotka = Defensive misery for Bruins opponents.
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
    that's good enough for me, 'Dupes'
    Posted by Awry



    I'll bite. Who the heck is 'Dupes'?
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
       'Dupes', I guess those were little elves who tried unsuccessfully to move both Savard and Thomas this off-season to get some Cap relief? No, to milk the metaphor, Chiarelli was not 'running them out of town', he was more, driving them to the outskirts and telling them to walk home. And when they did find their way back, he said, "Hey boys, no hard feelings eh"    Today Chiarelli looks good and so does Thomas' GAA/Save% as will Marc Savard centering Seguin and _____? But really it is mere blind luck, Thomas' and Savard's pride and a dried-up, Cap-strapped marketplace we have to thank, not Chairelli.    Now and thankfully, it's the likes of Ryder and Paille being mentioned in trade/demotion-for-cap-relief rumours instead of Thomas and Savard. I'd LOVE to credit Chiarelli's prescience for this, but I can't.    That the Bruins will have to, in all likelihood, move Blake Wheeler before they can even see if Marco Sturm can recover from his 2nd major knee operation (a hard one to come back from even once and even when you're young...), the fact that they're even in this position shows bad (ie; see: too much money to Andrew Ference) salary negotiation and poor Cap Management.    That Chiarelli would so cavalierly risk alienating his #1 Centre and his #1 Goalie with his clumsy public offering this past off-season, the fact that he would target these two players - potential cornerstones of this and next and next year's Cup runs - shows that his shoddy brinksmanship is outshone only by his lack of hockey IQ. Given that Savard and Thomas, today, could be just as easily not-Bruins, tells me that Bergeron or Lucic or anyone could be....not-Bruins and Jack, it's pronounced, 'LOO-cheech'        
    Posted by Awry

    maybe PC should quit his job and just buy lotto tickets  since he's so lucky.Apparently he was lucky Toronto tanked last year and now he's lucky TT is good and Savard is happy.After awhile you just should give credit where credit is due.He's built a contending team that we have yet to see the best of yet genuine  hockey experts like yourself continue to trash him.I can't believe PC can keep his job with an expert like you waiting in the wings.
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    ...so...conversely, you, 'dezaruchi' are saying: PC had something to do with Toronto tanking; that his embarrassingly public offering of Thomas was a tactic to make him play better; and that the same overt shopping of Savard is the reason he is 'happy'.
    hmm...how about this, I'll agree to attribute less of PC's entire success to luck - in fact, call it, 'neglect', but I think you're going to have to attribute a whole lot less to design. Deal?


     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
    ...so...conversely, you, 'dezaruchi' are saying: PC had something to do with Toronto tanking; that his embarrassingly public offering of Thomas was a tactic to make him play better; and that the same overt shopping of Savard is the reason he is 'happy'. hmm...how about this, I'll agree to attribute less of PC's entire success to luck - in fact, call it, 'neglect', but I think you're going to have to attribute a whole lot less to design. Deal?
    Posted by Awry

    A question for you: two seasons ago, what was your opinion of Chiarelli?  Did you already think he was a bad GM?
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In answer to your question, 'DrCC', i have been waiting for Chiarelli's 'legacy deals.' Of course, history will judge, but the Kessel deal has a lot more to do with Kessel's pride and Brian Burke's stupidity than Chiarelli's acumen.
    Unless, I'm totally wrong and Chiarelli is some kinda Jedi Chessmaster and on the day he drafted Phil Kessel #5, saw Tyler Seguin 14 moves ahead.

    Horton for Wideman for Boyes might turn out to be a beauty, Chiarelli seems pretty adept at fixing his mistakes, I'll give him that. Now if he could only get better at getting it right the first time...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Lucic/Horton

    Glad to see I was wrong.  I had you pegged as a victim of the human decision making process.  People tend to take new information and filter it according to how it reflects on decisions they've already made.  I bring this up because you and the others you were arguing with seem to have completely different views on what is fact, and what is not.  Discussions in those scenarios tend to end badly.

    As for Burke's stupidity, I partly agree with you there.  How does he not negotiate that the second first round pick be conditional?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Lucic/Horton

    DrCC. Thanks. Phewf! Always good to escape victimhood.
     
    It's been said that you gotta be good to be lucky. And Chiarelli was extremely good to extract 2 Firsts and a 2nd Rounder from Burke, who looks positively stupid on this one.

    But Chiarelli was also very lucky to run into this particularily bumbling and needlessly desperate GM. (still can't figure out why so desperate; Burke'd been given a green light and a free pass by Leafs fans to...'lose with dash and dignity' for a few years while he built a new team from the ground up (ie through the draft) - why Burke chose to shortcut or fast-track his way there with Kessel - thus painting himself and Kessel into a very dark corner of impossible expectations, exacerbated by every sweet move Tyler Seguin makes - is beyond me.)

    But back to Chiarelli: after Shopping Kessel not once, not twice but THREE times, Burke should have known that Chiarelli's back was against the wall, that Kessel's pride - anyone's pride! - would dictate that he could not be in Boston any longer (it was only after this 3rd public humiliation that Kessel decided this, and not before, as has been continuously and conveniently posited as the reason for his 'wanting out'.)
    Burke had way more leverage than he knew, he could have - should have - gotten Kessel for a lot less (one First Rounder, say). A point that is daily, hourly not lost on Leafs fans.

    Chiarelli himself, stated he thought the Leafs would do much better than 2nd last place last season.

    I think Chiarelli's 'luck' (or call it his; "superstar alienation strategy") ran out this summer when he tried to do the same thing to Thomas and Savard and couldn't find a single GM as utterly certain and as utterly wrong as Brian Burke tends to be. Chiarelli ran into a dried-up market and a lot of GMs who are - like Chiarelli - up against the Cap, (another reason I don't leap and rejoice and fall at Chiarelli's feet with praise for putting himself in the position where he has to throw overboard, good and promising NHL'ers - probably Ryder, maybe Wheeler - for Cap relief, for nothing.)

    Yup, it's Martin Brodeur's saying; 'ya gotta be good to be lucky.' I'm just not convinced, as it applies to Peter Chiarelli, that it isn't the other way around.

    I do know that, by design or neglect, over-paying your lower to middle income players and then offering up your star players to remedy the Cap issues these bloated contracts create - and expecting these stars to be cool with it - is neither a winning nor sustainable approach.  
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    There is one aspect of the current situation that I think gets forgotten sometimes.  Rask's overage penalty.  Without that, a lineup of Savard-Krejčí-Bergeron-Campbell-Ryder-Sturm-Seguin-Recchi-Wheeler-Horton-Lucic-Thornton/Chara-Seidenberg-Ference-Boychuk-Hunwick-Stuart/Thomas-Rask would have been under the cap.

    Sure, he could have protected himself better by leaving more cap space last year, but it would have been a stretch at the beginning of the season to think that Rask would hit all of his bonuses a year after Thomas won the Vezina.

    It's definitely risky to dance too close to the Upper Limit.  I think that's been his biggest Achilles' Heel; not leaving enough space to make hockey moves without having to spend a lot of time getting the cap numbers to work out.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
    DrCC. Thanks. Phewf! Always good to escape victimhood.   It's been said that you gotta be good to be lucky. And Chiarelli was extremely good to extract 2 Firsts and a 2nd Rounder from Burke, who looks positively stupid on this one. But Chiarelli was also very lucky to run into this particularily bumbling and needlessly desperate GM. (still can't figure out why so desperate; Burke'd been given a green light and a free pass by Leafs fans to...'lose with dash and dignity' for a few years while he built a new team from the ground up (ie through the draft) - why Burke chose to shortcut or fast-track his way there with Kessel - thus painting himself and Kessel into a very dark corner of impossible expectations, exacerbated by every sweet move Tyler Seguin makes - is beyond me.) But back to Chiarelli: after Shopping Kessel not once, not twice but THREE times, Burke should have known that Chiarelli's back was against the wall, that Kessel's pride - anyone's pride! - would dictate that he could not be in Boston any longer (it was only after this 3rd public humiliation that Kessel decided this, and not before, as has been continuously and conveniently posited as the reason for his 'wanting out'.) Burke had way more leverage than he knew, he could have - should have - gotten Kessel for a lot less (one First Rounder, say). A point that is daily, hourly not lost on Leafs fans. Chiarelli himself, stated he thought the Leafs would do much better than 2nd last place last season. I think Chiarelli's 'luck' (or call it his; "superstar alienation strategy") ran out this summer when he tried to do the same thing to Thomas and Savard and couldn't find a single GM as utterly certain and as utterly wrong as Brian Burke tends to be. Chiarelli ran into a dried-up market and a lot of GMs who are - like Chiarelli - up against the Cap, (another reason I don't leap and rejoice and fall at Chiarelli's feet with praise for putting himself in the position where he has to throw overboard, good and promising NHL'ers - probably Ryder, maybe Wheeler - for Cap relief, for nothing.) Yup, it's Martin Brodeur's saying; 'ya gotta be good to be lucky.' I'm just not convinced, as it applies to Peter Chiarelli, that it isn't the other way around. I do know that, by design or neglect, over-paying your lower to middle income players and then offering up your star players to remedy the Cap issues these bloated contracts create - and expecting these stars to be cool with it - is neither a winning nor sustainable approach.  
    Posted by Awry

    I think PC,like many of us,thought the Leafs would be awful.Not exactly politically correct to state it publically though.
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    I was going to start a separate post titled "My Apology to Milan", but this seems as good a place to state my mea culpa.

    Not that anyone cares, but I've spent a fair amount of time on this forum writing about how Lucic is "overrated", a "lousy skater", and will "never be another Cam Neely." Well, I'm sticking to that last one, b/c he won't be--and that's no knock on him--only an acknwledgment of how extraordinary #8 was.

    But: And this is not based solely on the hat trick game the other night--but what I've seen out of #17 this season is something I haven't seen previously, and that's mostly a devastating wrist shot that looks like  a natural goal-scorer's best friend. Also, his pairing w/Horton is absolutely perfect: 2 huge bookends needing only a great playmaking center to put fear into the hearts of defensemen and goalies everywhere.

    Maybe Krejci's that guy (but I confess I would LOVE to see what happens if you put a healthy Savard between those 2.)

    anyway, my main point is that when it's time to admit you were wrong, you gotta step up and do it. Maybe it's the Horton factor, or maybe he was more hampered by that ankle last year than I realized, but Lucic has the potential to be way better than the 15-goal player I pegged him to be. He can be a game changer, and I only hope I haven't jinxed his chances at that by finally coming around to him as a huge fan.

    #17 seems to me to now be an essential key to the Bruins' Stanley Cup hopes, and I assessed him unfairly--and wrongly--before. My apologies to Milan.

    (Now, as for Wheeler and Paille---I'm still hoping for them to go bye-bye for almost anything that moves and can swing a stick so we can get some bucks off the books. That goes for Ryder too, even tho' I still like his shot--only for far less $$$)
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    In Response to Re: Lucic/Horton:
    ...so...conversely, you, 'dezaruchi' are saying: PC had something to do with Toronto tanking; that his embarrassingly public offering of Thomas was a tactic to make him play better; and that the same overt shopping of Savard is the reason he is 'happy'. hmm...how about this, I'll agree to attribute less of PC's entire success to luck - in fact, call it, 'neglect', but I think you're going to have to attribute a whole lot less to design. Deal?
    Posted by Awry

    I don't think T.O. stinking was any secret to anyone but Burke.The deal was panned by every hockey personality(in Canada anyway)but Burke who stated at the time that he was a "home run hitter".I still laugh when I think about it.The only thing PC was lucky about was the size of Burke's ego.You can call it what you want but I call it shrewd management.Maybe I'm naive but it works for me.
     
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    Re: Lucic/Horton

    These comments have really wandered around, but let's face it, Chia extended Lucic, some think too high, but he put off any other club getting Looch for $3.5/#.8; then he trades ' let me outa here" Kessel and lands Seguin plus; then he signs Kreji to what might be called a home town contract; he signs Bergeron to another reasonable deal; He signs Chara to anchor Claude's defense; He's made a few mistakes in Lewis,Versteeg, but he has more capability in the pipe than at any recent Bruins perspective. He turned Boyes into Wideman,into Horton and that looks good. He signed Timmy after his Vezina year, sweated thru Timmy's injury that noone highlighted, and now has Timmy locked up as Tuuka matures. How can anyone knock Chia at this time???
     
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