Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to MeanE's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Don't cherry pick my post.  :) The sentence before was How many are available? Plus, I don't think that Zach Parise and his $7.5 Million fit this Bruins team, unless you want to trade Big Z for him.  I guess I wasn't clear enough about needs.  Obviously if money was no object and all of these players were available they would fill a need.

    [/QUOTE]

    Whether or not someone is a first line player isn't contingent upon his availability in trade or how they fit on a specific team.  Marchand isn't a first line player on Boston.  If he were, he'd be, you know, playing on the first line.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    "So accounting for power plays goals, you have basically less production, 8 years older, and $2.16m more."

    An easier math if Geoff Smith could somehow be lured to Vancouver by Benning.

    easy fix LoL

     

    Playoffs: Reilly Smith > Tyler Seguin

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to seobrien's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just did some simple playoff math

    Marleau career 0.70 ppg

    Marchand career 0.59 ppg (0 pp goals)

    If you take out Marleau's 21 post season power play goals (not even assists) he drops to 0.557

    So accounting for power plays goals, you have basically less production, 8 years older, and $2.16m more.

    I'm OK if the B's trade Marchand...just not for Patrick Marleau.

    Let's not forget that the Sharts have averaged 100 points a year going back to the turn of the century and no Stanley Cup appearances, I don't see how anyone could make a case that this gets the Bruins over the hump.

    [/QUOTE]

    Why would you take out his powerplay goals?  Marleau's ability to score on the man advantage is not related to Marchand's inability to earn powerplay time.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    If Krejci is better offensively, why is it that Bergeron has matched his season high of 73 points. They've both scored at .75 PPG for their careers. The difference being that Bergeron is given less opportunities to score. I say that because Bergeron starts so many shifts in the D zone whereas DK starts just as many in the offensive zone.

    [/QUOTE]

    I can understand that line of thinking, and you can add in a lot more defensive responsibility as well, but don't forget that Krejci usually plays against tougher defenseman.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MeanE's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Don't cherry pick my post.  :) The sentence before was How many are available? Plus, I don't think that Zach Parise and his $7.5 Million fit this Bruins team, unless you want to trade Big Z for him.  I guess I wasn't clear enough about needs.  Obviously if money was no object and all of these players were available they would fill a need.

    [/QUOTE]

    Whether or not someone is a first line player isn't contingent upon his availability in trade or how they fit on a specific team.  Marchand isn't a first line player on Boston.  If he were, he'd be, you know, playing on the first line.  

    [/QUOTE]


    If he's not a 1st line talent then it should be easy to name 30 LW's in the league who are better than him. What's next, are we going to start calling Malkin or Crosby 2nd line centers because they happen to play on the same team? Where a guy pencils in with a particular lineup means little in this debate. I guess nobody would like to pick up Logan Couture because he's only a 3rd line center...........

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    If Krejci is better offensively, why is it that Bergeron has matched his season high of 73 points. They've both scored at .75 PPG for their careers. The difference being that Bergeron is given less opportunities to score. I say that because Bergeron starts so many shifts in the D zone whereas DK starts just as many in the offensive zone.

    [/QUOTE]

    I can understand that line of thinking, and you can add in a lot more defensive responsibility as well, but don't forget that Krejci usually plays against tougher defenseman.

    [/QUOTE]


    I honestly think they're pretty much even in offensive prowess.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MeanE's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bergeron=Autocup  I believe that you were one of the posters on another thread when we were discussing Soderberg saying that he couldn't do it on his own and that Eriksson had something to do with the one-eyed swede's sudden rise.  Now Bergeron does it all by himself?  If we are basing everything on points, Tyler Seguin is the 4th best center in the league, way ahead of Krejci & Bergeron at 11 & 19 respectively.  How do you like that stat?  You want him to replace either of those 2 guys?  I guess you also missed the part where I stated all-around.  I want you to show me a stat that shows ice time vs "#1" defensive pairs.  Not sure if it exists, not sure if it matters.  What about when the #1 defensive pair is on the ice with the worst checking line, whichever numbered line that may be with each team.  What about the fact that Bergeron, Marchand and fill in the blank on the right side for the last 4 years have matched up the majority of the time vs the other teams "top" line?  How does that factor into play?  Please tell us why puck possession is Wicked Stupid, other than throwing out Scott Gomez's name.  As it appears to me that the league is putting more and more focus on puck possession than ever before.

    [/QUOTE]

    You're talking about puck possession.  That's crazy Corsi stuff that was destroyed when Ovechkin returned to scoring goals.  Why do I bring up Gomez in a puck possession conversation?  Cam Charron is a huge proponent of the advanced wicked stupid stats.

    Here's everything you need to know about the importance of the puck possession stat:

    http://theleafsnation.com/2012/1/26/is-scott-gomez-hockeys-most-underrated-yes" rel="nofollow">http://theleafsnation.com/2012/1/26/is-scott-gomez-hockeys-most-underrated-yes

    [/QUOTE]

    I am not following you.  Crazy corsi stuff?  Destroyed when Ovi returned to scoring goals?  You give one guy's account of one player, two years ago and that's all I need to know about puck possession?  I don't pretend to understand all of the advanced stats, but I do feel that there is a growing number of Hockey Ops in the NHL that don't think they are wicked stupid.

    One might argue that this link is all you need to know about the importance of the puck possession stat:

    http://deadspin.com/this-wonderful-graphic-proves-that-in-the-nhl-puck-pos-470045959" rel="nofollow">http://deadspin.com/this-wonderful-graphic-proves-that-in-the-nhl-puck-pos-470045959

     

    I might argue that it is probably somewhere in between.  Again, why cherry pick which stats are important and which aren't.  You don't like traditional stats like +/-, and you don't like advanced stats.  I tend to think that all of them can be useful in determining one's value.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seobrien's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The argument is that Marleau would make the B's  better in the playoffs. There no evidence of that.

    [/QUOTE]

    Actually yes there is:

    "since 2002, he's (Marleau) scored 55 goals in 125 postseason games, which leaves him with the second-best goals-per-game among players to play at least 100 playoff games in that time."

     

    Could have used some of that scoring against the Habs rather than dumb penalties, no?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He was 23 in 2002.  He's 35 now.

    [/QUOTE]

    That doesn't matter, right?  You can't dismiss old stats.  They still count in the discussion.  You know, like when someone has an awesome time as a rookie and then blows for all years after.

    [/QUOTE]

    4 years ago vs 12 years ago?  Seriously?  Marchand was 14 and playing Bantam in 2002.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he's not a 1st line talent then it should be easy to name 30 LW's in the league who are better than him. What's next, are we going to start calling Malkin or Crosby 2nd line centers because they happen to play on the same team? Where a guy pencils in with a particular lineup means little in this debate. I guess nobody would like to pick up Logan Couture because he's only a 3rd line center...........

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree.  Let me rephrase:  Not a first line player on a contender or most playoff teams.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he's not a 1st line talent then it should be easy to name 30 LW's in the league who are better than him. What's next, are we going to start calling Malkin or Crosby 2nd line centers because they happen to play on the same team? Where a guy pencils in with a particular lineup means little in this debate. I guess nobody would like to pick up Logan Couture because he's only a 3rd line center...........

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree.  Let me rephrase:  Not a first line player on a contender or most playoff teams.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That seems sensible enough.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he's not a 1st line talent then it should be easy to name 30 LW's in the league who are better than him. What's next, are we going to start calling Malkin or Crosby 2nd line centers because they happen to play on the same team? Where a guy pencils in with a particular lineup means little in this debate. I guess nobody would like to pick up Logan Couture because he's only a 3rd line center...........

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree.  Let me rephrase:  Not a first line player on a contender or most playoff teams.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I totally agree with Dez, about where a guy pencils in with a particular lineup means little.  As I said earlier, the Bruins are probably the most conservative team in the NHL when it comes to mixing lines.  Would Marchand have been on the "first line" in LA before Gaborik went over to the Left wing?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:


    In response to seobrien's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Just did some simple playoff math


    Marleau career 0.70 ppg


    Marchand career 0.59 ppg (0 pp goals)


    If you take out Marleau's 21 post season power play goals (not even assists) he drops to 0.557


    So accounting for power plays goals, you have basically less production, 8 years older, and $2.16m more.


    I'm OK if the B's trade Marchand...just not for Patrick Marleau.


    Let's not forget that the Sharts have averaged 100 points a year going back to the turn of the century and no Stanley Cup appearances, I don't see how anyone could make a case that this gets the Bruins over the hump.




    Why would you take out his powerplay goals?  Marleau's ability to score on the man advantage is not related to Marchand's inability to earn powerplay time.


     


    [/QUOTE]


    Fair statement. Lets leave it in. Even with Marchand not playing well the last 3 playoffs (agreed point) Marleau is 0.11 ppg better than Marchand in their careers. Marchand was a plus player this post season. Marleau was not (even while he played on all those earned power plays). Marleau is much older and decidedly more expensive and has won nothing. I'd take every player on the wingers list in this thread before Marleau..they are all young or in their prime. Listen, I'm not a big Marchand guy, but Marleau has never passed the proverbial eyeball test to me. If Marleau was 30 or if he made Marchand money (you may scoff but cap flexibility is a big part of today's game), I'd do it in a heartbeat. I personally just think the B's could do better than a 6.7 million cap hit on an over 35 player.


     


     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    A lot of people are very focused on Marleau's age.  Last season, this elderly man who is currently approaching the assisted living facility as he goes on 35 years, had 33 goals and 37 assists.  He was also good enough to earn powerplay time on a team that finished tied for fourth in points.  As his team lost (again!) early he had three goals in seven games.

    Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  As he entered his fourth post-season, his team lost in the second round counting zero goals from the second line winger.

    Someone please tell me why age matters in this discussion.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to seobrien's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fair statement. Lets leave it in. Even with Marchand not playing well the last 3 playoffs (agreed point) Marleau is 0.11 ppg better than Marchand in their careers. Marchand was a plus player this post season. Marleau was not (even while he played on all those earned power plays). Marleau is much older and decidedly more expensive and has won nothing. I'd take every player on the wingers list in this thread before Marleau..they are all young or in their prime. Listen, I'm not a big Marchand guy, but Marleau has never passed the proverbial eyeball test to me. If Marleau was 30 or if he made Marchand money (you may scoff but cap flexibility is a big part of today's game), I'd do it in a heartbeat. I personally just think the B's could do better than a 6.7 million cap hit on an over 35 player.

    [/QUOTE]

    Marleau hasn't won anything...in the NHL.  He does have two gold medals in the Olympics.  Marchand can't say that because he wasn't good enough to make the team.

    As for winning in the NHL, there's a lot more involved than a player's ability.  See:  Shawn Thornton

    Has Marleau shown signs of decline?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A lot of people are very focused on Marleau's age.  Last season, this elderly man who is currently approaching the assisted living facility as he goes on 35 years, had 33 goals and 37 assists.  He was also good enough to earn powerplay time on a team that finished tied for fourth in points.  As his team lost (again!) early he had three goals in seven games.

    Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  As he entered his fourth post-season, his team lost in the second round counting zero goals from the second line winger.

    Someone please tell me why age matters in this discussion.

    [/QUOTE]


    Again cherry picking!  Most here have stated age and contract. Not simply age!  I love how you know what CJ values as well.  Maybe CJ values Brad more on the PK, since I believe he lead the league in shorty's and doesn't want 2 players on one of his top lines playing on both special teams units.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Same coach that had Chris Bourque on the PP until PC released him.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to MeanE's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Again cherry picking!  Most here have stated age and contract. Not simply age!  I love how you know what CJ values as well.  Maybe CJ values Brad more on the PK, since I believe he lead the league in shorty's and doesn't want 2 players on one of his top lines playing on both special teams units.

    [/QUOTE]

    Okay, so let's say SJ agrees to keep $2.17M.  Now do you agree it's a great deal?

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pucman. Show pucman's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    WOW!  this thread has turned into a donnybrook! We need Thornton to come take care of some business in here.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A lot of people are very focused on Marleau's age.  Last season, this elderly man who is currently approaching the assisted living facility as he goes on 35 years, had 33 goals and 37 assists.  He was also good enough to earn powerplay time on a team that finished tied for fourth in points.  As his team lost (again!) early he had three goals in seven games.

    Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  As he entered his fourth post-season, his team lost in the second round counting zero goals from the second line winger.

    Someone please tell me why age matters in this discussion.

    [/QUOTE]


    Because he's on a big money contract for 3 more years. If he doesn't work out they are saddled with an albatross. If it's a one year deal  or incentive laden, it's a horse of a different color. I think the risk is too great.

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeanE. Show MeanE's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MeanE's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Again cherry picking!  Most here have stated age and contract. Not simply age!  I love how you know what CJ values as well.  Maybe CJ values Brad more on the PK, since I believe he lead the league in shorty's and doesn't want 2 players on one of his top lines playing on both special teams units.

    [/QUOTE]

    Okay, so let's say SJ agrees to keep $2.17M.  Now do you agree it's a great deal?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    For the life of both their contracts, I would say it is a good deal.  However, after 3 years it might be an issue and I am not in agreement with you that the window closes with Big Z.  Realistically, do you really think SJ would be willing to keep $2.17, and if so why? Why would they essentially pay the Bruins for what you believe is an inferior player in Brad Marchand?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Same coach that had Chris Bourque on the PP until PC released him.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not getting into Julien here.  Feel free to start a new thread about Claude!

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     Young buck Machand, who the coach doesn't value enough for powerplay time, had 25 goals and 28 assists.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Same coach that had Chris Bourque on the PP until PC released him.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not getting into Julien here.  Feel free to start a new thread about Claude!

    [/QUOTE]

    You brought the head coach up. 

    I honestly think it's one of the ways CJ uses "tough love" with Marchand to keep him reigned in.  Think Marchand gets PP time on just about every other teams in the league.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    I wonder why Marchand does not get the time on the power play and Reilly Smith does.




     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seobrien's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fair statement. Lets leave it in. Even with Marchand not playing well the last 3 playoffs (agreed point) Marleau is 0.11 ppg better than Marchand in their careers. Marchand was a plus player this post season. Marleau was not (even while he played on all those earned power plays). Marleau is much older and decidedly more expensive and has won nothing. I'd take every player on the wingers list in this thread before Marleau..they are all young or in their prime. Listen, I'm not a big Marchand guy, but Marleau has never passed the proverbial eyeball test to me. If Marleau was 30 or if he made Marchand money (you may scoff but cap flexibility is a big part of today's game), I'd do it in a heartbeat. I personally just think the B's could do better than a 6.7 million cap hit on an over 35 player.

    [/QUOTE]

    Marleau hasn't won anything...in the NHL.  He does have two gold medals in the Olympics.  Marchand can't say that because he wasn't good enough to make the team.

    As for winning in the NHL, there's a lot more involved than a player's ability.  See:  Shawn Thornton

    Has Marleau shown signs of decline?

    [/QUOTE]

    Marchand was in the mix for the 2014 team, part of the camp invitees (Lucic too), not sure if you remember that. 

    I love the "he has 2 Olympic Gold" argument, as if anything short of Gold was the expectation for Canada.  Want to know who else has Gold medals from Canada?  Roberto Luongo, Dan Hamuis, Marc-Andre Fluery and PK Subban who totally coat-tailed a Gold last year.

    So Thornton didn't "earn" his Cups, but Marleau earned his Golds?  That's a fair way to look at it. 

    By the way, no goals from the great Marleau in 6 Olympic games...shocking from a premier goal scorer like him.  Only 2 goals in 7 games in the 2010 games.  13gp and only 2 goals???  You sure he contributed more than Thornton?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Marchand for Marleau ?? w the f

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Marchand was in the mix for the 2014 team, part of the camp invitees (Lucic too), not sure if you remember that. 

    I love the "he has 2 Olympic Gold" argument, as if anything short of Gold was the expectation for Canada.  Want to know who else has Gold medals from Canada?  Roberto Luongo, Dan Hamuis, Marc-Andre Fluery and PK Subban who totally coat-tailed a Gold last year.

    So Thornton didn't "earn" his Cups, but Marleau earned his Golds?  That's a fair way to look at it. 

    By the way, no goals from the great Marleau in 6 Olympic games...shocking from a premier goal scorer like him.  Only 2 goals in 7 games in the 2010 games.  13gp and only 2 goals???  You sure he contributed more than Thornton?

    [/QUOTE]

    At least he made the team!  He was good enough for Team Canada, but not good enough to trade Marchand for.  I know, I know.  The money!  The age!

    I ask again:  Has he shown any signs of slowing down?  I don't think so.  I think it just comes down to a wager vs. a wager.  I'd be willing to make the deal in a wager that Marleau keeps it up while Marchand continues to suck it in the playoffs.  You seem unwilling to make the deal because you'd wager that Marleau's age finally catches up with him while Marchand finds the 2011 impact.

    Is that fair?

     
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