Messier = Cooke?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Messier = Cooke?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yxLlZkknv0&feature=related

    Just found this today on YouTube... looks familiar.

    BTW.. the EMT's are priceless






    WOW.. I mean, Messier is at the very least, just as dirty as Cooke. But, in reality, he was probably much dirtier.



     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pretzeller. Show Pretzeller's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Yeah Messier used the ol' elbows as weapons back then, no elbow on the Modano hit, but Messier admitted on OTR that he was trying to knock Modano out. He was definitely dirty as heck and they say players have no respect for each other now a days, didn't look like Messier has any in any of those clips. I was never a fan of his, always thought he was a knob. I think a lot of the injuries from hits in todays game is due to the robocop gear players wear, but eh that's just my 2 cents.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheatskins. Show Wheatskins's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Messier won the 1990 Stanley Cup for Edmonton when he butchered Dave Poulin in Game 1. Poulin never returned.

    He got away with a lot Mr. Messier - thanks to Mr. Gretzky.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Messier was dirty, so was Howe.  People were more forgiving of that stuff back then, partly because it wasn't shown again and again on replay.  They were also good players, so they spent a lot of time actually playing hockey.  Cooke does nothing but garbage so it's harder to take.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    they were more forgiving b/c its freaking hockey.  hockey is a violent game.  the stuff that is suspendable these days was simply part of hockey back in the day. players used there elbows to keep people from running them.  they used it to protect themselves.

    i really can't stand this entire head hit topic. players know they are at risk when they play.  anyone on here who has played any level of hockey has been given a cheap shot similar to these videoas
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from callodthedom19. Show callodthedom19's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Messier is dirty by todays pussified standards but he was a force when he played. Those hits happened all the time. Look how small Messier looks, now look at Phaneuf.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Different time and different standards. Yes Messier could play in the trenches and in the 80's that meant getting down and dirty. Verbeek and Ciccerelli were also of the same ilk.

    The difference with Messier however is that he used his elbows (sans the 21st century hard plastic cap elbow pads) to give himself space. Idiots like Cooke just seem to do it for the hell of it. Anyone who wins the Conn Smythe and Hart trophies (as well as multiple Stanley Cups) is deserving of respect and not to be compared to "people"like Cooke....
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Meh, elbowing has been a major penalty since well before Messier's days.  It was never acceptable and never should have been.  Saying that cheap shots should be taken out is not pussifying the game.  Only jerks deliver cheap shots.  Real men play tough but play within' the rules and are up front about things.  There is nothing tough about throwing an elbow as you skate by someone who is unsuspecting.  Messier did that on many occasions.  That is cowardly if you ask me.  Just because he was successful doesn't mean you should forgive his faults.  He is not as bad as Cooke, but he has some similar traits.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    OatesCam,

    How is Messier not as bad as Cooke? these hits he's delivering are every bit as intentional as Cooke's.. it looks like Messier did it more often too.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]Meh, elbowing has been a major penalty since well before Messier's days.  It was never acceptable and never should have been.  Saying that cheap shots should be taken out is not pussifying the game.  Only jerks deliver cheap shots.  Real men play tough but play within' the rules and are up front about things.  There is nothing tough about throwing an elbow as you skate by someone who is unsuspecting.  Messier did that on many occasions.  That is cowardly if you ask me.  Just because he was successful doesn't mean you should forgive his faults.  He is not as bad as Cooke, but he has some similar traits.
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    Are you saying Cam never cheap shotted anyone?  There is a difference.  Cam grabbed Claude and Ulf (very deserved) and pounded on them.  In todays standard is that cheap.  Back to my original statement.  Every person who has played hockey has given and took a cheap shot.  Its a violent sport thats permits hitting, you will always get cheap shots.  Lord my 3 yr old plays hockey in the basement and slashed my ankle the other day.  Probably b/c I was trash talking. 

    The war on the ice is a violent playground.  I dislike this entire topic.  Hockey is hockey.  There will always be cheap shot artists. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    I watched Cam for a long time and can't remember him throwing a dirty elbow or swinging his stick.  It's one of the reasons I liked him.  It's why I like Lucic and Horton right now.  Tough, skilled, fight if they have to but there's no going out to try to injure someone.  Cam said he hoped his hits would hurt but not injure.  I saw Messier just this year admitting he wanted to injure Modano.  I've played a lot of hockey, but I've never done a cheap shot.  Shupe, you seem to be equating tough and physical with elbows, blindside hits and slashes.  I think they are just the opposite.  Olsonic, I wasn't defending Messier.  I said he was similar to Cooke.  By my memory, Messier spent most of his time playing hockey and occasionally going over the line and doing something dirty.  All I see Cooke doing is cheap shots and agitating.  I don't like either one, but I find Cooke the worst.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    cooke= claude lemioux, same player- dirty as all hell, with a touch of offense. comparing to messier is ludicrous- messier was an offensively gifted player who was dirty. THE ONLY players who liked lemioux were his teammates, same with cooke. the rest of the league- to the man, HATED these guys. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Oates,

    I was a pretty clean player(actually played in the CHL-Wichita).  To say I never did anything cheap would be lying.  I did whatever I had to to win.  Cross checking someone in the back is dirty when you think of it, but its a way to keep the front of the net cleared out.  I played Maritime Junior A and it was fight filled...most of the crap that lead up to it would be 100 game suspensions.

    I have recieved and I gave. Its part of hockey.  I have had high hits(not intentional, but its happens).  Hockey isnt a perfect sport. 

    And if you watched a lot of Cam you obviously turned a blind eye.  He was a wrecking machine and I would bet a vast majority of his hits would be suspenable in todays hockey. 
    Scott Stevens was as hard nosed as they come but he would have been suspended numerous times.  Bob Probert- one of my all time favorites was a killer but also would cheap shot. 

    They all do it.  The hard nosed types more so.  You would be hard pressed to convince me that there is one player in the past who played a physical style that didnt cross the line from time to time.

    I think its a good topic though.  But Cam was no angel.  Nor did I want him to be.  The reason being.  It's Hockey!!!!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Yeah, I don't think Cam was an angle, but I'm talking about blatent elbows to players looking the other way.  Never saw Cam do that.  Saw Messier do multiple times, we've seen Cooke do it.  Most guys, even the tough ones, don't ever do that kind of thing.  You talk about battling for position and throwing a crosscheck or two, that's what it's all about.  You are BATTLING.  You know it, your opponent knows it.  It's all good.  But both Cooke and Messier had a habbit of taking players out when they weren't suspecting.  I have no use for that.  Stevens... well he's borderline.  I think he liked to injure people.  But I like seeing his hits, and the players always had the puck but sometimes had their head down.  It's controversal, but I kind of blame the player getting hit on those.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 86redsox. Show 86redsox's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    hockey is a game of passion...and elbows and high sticks and cheap shots.

    Cooke shouldnt be in the league. 30 strikes yer out i guess....His highlights(?) are not great for fetching any kind of tv contract.......

    or maybe they are.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Cam was a mean and nasty SOB.  I am pretty sure he had his share of moments.  Although when watching back then it was legit. 
    If we were watching Cam, Messier, Stevens, Howe, Probert in todays league we would be talking about how many games.  Back then we thought- man this is gonna be a nasty hockey game, we would then sit on the edge of our seat(beer in hand) and watch some good hockey.  I mean how many brawls were there? 

    I don't like the way the league is going with this.  I know something has to be done to eliminate it, but they are also taking a lot of legit hits outta the game. 
    "keep your head up" followed by
    "I got my bell rung" were all part of the game. 

    And in most instances I believe the victim of these hits are more to blame than the one delivering them.  You gotta know Scott Stevens will take your head off...he prayed on it.  Lindros, Francis and Kariya "Et al" will tell you they should have known he was on the ice. 

    anyway, todays hockey has changed.  not for the better.  Messier is an icon. Dirty?  Yeah he had his moments.  But he also has 5 Cup Rings and is also known as one of the best leaders in any sport in any era.  Comparing him to Cooke for a few instances is not fair when you look at career accomplishments and the level of play that Messier played with. 
    Tockett, Cam, Shanny, Guerin, Thachuk, Messier, Stevens, Nolan etc etc are in a different class...all of these guys played gritty hard nosed hockey.  But all were excellent players and leaders as well.  I think thats where there is a difference.   
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    When it comes to blind side elbows to the head, checks from behind, and malicious stickwork, Neely isn't even in Messier's league. Truly one of the dirtiest players to ever play. Talented though.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]Yeah, I don't think Cam was an angle, but I'm talking about blatent elbows to players looking the other way.  Never saw Cam do that.  Saw Messier do multiple times, we've seen Cooke do it.  Most guys, even the tough ones, don't ever do that kind of thing.  You talk about battling for position and throwing a crosscheck or two, that's what it's all about.  You are BATTLING.  You know it, your opponent knows it.  It's all good.  But both Cooke and Messier had a habbit of taking players out when they weren't suspecting.  I have no use for that.  Stevens... well he's borderline.  I think he liked to injure people.  But I like seeing his hits, and the players always had the puck but sometimes had their head down.  It's controversal, but I kind of blame the player getting hit on those.
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]
    Cam was suspended 5 games for a 2 hand slash to Randy Ladouceur's head.He proceeded to score goals in 5 straight games upon returning from suspension.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPsaoILncSg
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Anybody trying to compare Messier and Cooke needs the help of strong medicine....
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]Anybody trying to compare Messier and Cooke needs the help of strong medicine....
    Posted by jmwalters[/QUOTE]
    Messier WAS a dirty prickk.The difference being,Messier knocked some people out.Cooke tries to end careers(like another former Penguin we all hate).
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Most of the logic in this thread suggests that if Cooke was a better player, people would care less about how dirty he is. In fact, he could even cheap shot more people than he currently does if he was a solid two way-centerman that could win a stanley cup.

    I hope you recognize the implications of this mentality when it comes to policing the game.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    Messier was every bit as dirty as Cookie, but his talent forced the league to turn a blind eye,like it did with the entire Flyers team of the 70's they were even worse stickwork and knees.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]Messier was every bit as dirty as Cookie, but his talent forced the league to turn a blind eye,like it did with the entire Flyers team of the 70's they were even worse stickwork and knees.
    Posted by No4BobbyOrr-GOAT[/QUOTE]

    I didn't know kneeing was rampant in the 70s. Is that what philly was known for?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke? : I didn't know kneeing was rampant in the 70s. Is that what philly was known for?
    Posted by OlsonicCreations[/QUOTE]

    They were the BSBullies they targeted the top players every game with cheapshots, stickwork and knees.  Yes they had a good team and a great goalie, but their tactics won them a few playoff series as well.  Clarke was possibly one of the best at it, ask the Russians. Barber after many attempts finally got Orr on one of the worst shots to his knees, but they targeted Perault, Lafleur et al, cookie had nothing on them, they sent the entire Russian team home.(I was cheering them on tho in that one)

    An entirely different league in those days, but, you could not take your eyes off the screen, no matter who was playing, there was more dirt, but there was also far more talent.  There was no trapezoid, no trap, and no entrapment, there was a red line and yet far less offsides.  There was also none of this no show like our rematch against Pit, I certainly miss old time hockey. lol
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Messier = Cooke?

    In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Messier = Cooke? : They were the BSBullies they targeted the top players every game with cheapshots, stickwork and knees.  Yes they had a good team and a great goalie, but their tactics won them a few playoff series as well.  Clarke was possibly one of the best at it, ask the Russians. Barber after many attempts finally got Orr on one of the worst shots to his knees, but they targeted Perault, Lafleur et al, cookie had nothing on them, they sent the entire Russian team home.(I was cheering them on tho in that one) An entirely different league in those days, but, you could not take your eyes off the screen, no matter who was playing, there was more dirt, but there was also far more talent.  There was no trapezoid, no trap, and no entrapment, there was a red line and yet far less offsides.  There was also none of this no show like our rematch against Pit, I certainly miss old time hockey. lol
    Posted by No4BobbyOrr-GOAT[/QUOTE]
    Me too Goat.....me too.
     
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