Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? :  Because I don't really think saying "Horton should have kept his head up and not admired his pass"is not very objective either....!Posted by Ronstar8[/QUOTE]

    Awesome new avatar Ronstar just noticed it!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Thing is NAS, how is this distinctly a defenseman problem?  For one thing, is it that much different with forwards?  From '04, Wheeler's on his third team, Ladd's on his third team.  Wolski.  Radulov.

    Don't you have to correct for stupid drafting (Valabik)?  Doesn't matter what position a guys plays if he has the skills of a dead gerbil.  So part of this has to be that the D go on and have careers/reach their potential with other teams - unlike Barker, who hasn't gotten better after leaving Chicago.  And then the question is how did they move.  Smid was a key part of the Pronger trade that allowed the Ducks to get a key piece of their Cup team.  I'd make that deal every week.

    The only 2004 guy who really fits the mold is Mezaros - forced his way out of Ottawa at the end of his entry level deal and has played reasonably - and even then the Senators got back two stiffs and a first round pick.  Mezaros went 23rd overall.  The pick they got back?  25th overall.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ronstar8. Show Ronstar8's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : Awesome new avatar Ronstar just noticed it!
    Posted by SanDogBrewin[/QUOTE]

    Thanks San. Figured it was time for a refresh and my friend 49 inspired me today.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Thing is NAS, how is this distinctly a defenseman problem?  For one thing, is it that much different with forwards?  From '04, Wheeler's on his third team, Ladd's on his third team.  Wolski.  Radulov. Don't you have to correct for stupid drafting (Valabik)?  Doesn't matter what position a guys plays if he has the skills of a dead gerbil.  So part of this has to be that the D go on and have careers/reach their potential with other teams - unlike Barker, who hasn't gotten better after leaving Chicago.  And then the question is how did they move.  Smid was a key part of the Pronger trade that allowed the Ducks to get a key piece of their Cup team.  I'd make that deal every week. The only 2004 guy who really fits the mold is Mezaros - forced his way out of Ottawa at the end of his entry level deal and has played reasonably - and even then the Senators got back two stiffs and a first round pick.  Mezaros went 23rd overall.  The pick they got back?  25th overall.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Small sample size book but good pts. Have a look at the last ten yrs and ask yoruself the same question.  2006 Erci Johnson or Toews?  Or Backstrom, etc etc.  Its quit staggering actually.  I think there are very few sure things anyway but NAS has made me a believer.  Say it aint so
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Looking less specifically, Book, you find that more defensemen whom are drafted highly blossom elsewhere.  Especially now, with the UFA status coming at 27, drafting a defeseman early is crazy. 

    Of course, I got taken to the cleaners for this thought process at draft time as the B's took a defenseman at #9.  We'll see how it pans out.  Will he be an incredible defenseman out of the ELC, demanding a huge payday and crippling the team?  Will he be denied that huge contract and end up a hold out?  Will he be very average and end up playing elsewhere...only to skyrocket when he's 25? 

    It's going to be interesting to see how it turns out.  Oh, another possibility:  He stinks.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    There's no "draft Febreeze" for stinky picks.

    I think I did the more extended look when we had this topic back at the draft and I still questioned how many of the examples are truly the "throw your hands in the air, woe is me, I developed a D-man but now he wants too much money and will be paying off for someone else" variety.

    In 2005, for example, there were a lot of stinky D picks (cough*Lashoff*cough), and Carolina dealt Jack Johnson before he was 20 (see my anti-Rutherford comment above) but Mark Staal is still a Ranger and may be the best of that first round, and Matt Niskanen played reasonably for Dallas before they shipped him off to acquire Goligoski.

    In 2003, yes Coburn and Phaneuf were moved, but the Coburn for Zhitnik deal is routinely cited as a dictionary example of a stupid GM move (and was at the time) while Phaneuf hasn't matched his performance in Calgary since moving to Toronto.  Burns has been Olympic calibre for his tenure in Minnesota, and only leaves because the Wild made a hockey move to acquire Heatley. 

    This is one of my biggest points of resistance - you can't argue that drafting a defenseman is a bad idea just because other GMs have made stupid deals or because the player moved from team A to team B and then became a star.  Why they moved is the key.

    The hard part of that whole argument is proving the increased risk that the player will develop slowly and therefore give you fewer years of control before he prices himself out of your structure or leaves as a UFA. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    ...I concede the general point, though, that if D take longer to develop, and FA status comes at 27, you're up against the FA bar sooner with a fully developed D-man.  But that raises the question of how do you acquire a #1 defenseman?  Gotta pay for them one way or another, and acquiring one as a UFA costs about $7M.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]...I concede the general point, though, that if D take longer to develop, and FA status comes at 27, you're up against the FA bar sooner with a fully developed D-man.  But that raises the question of how do you acquire a #1 defenseman?  Gotta pay for them one way or another, and acquiring one as a UFA costs about $7M.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Be the team that acquires him.  That way, you're getting a proven commodity, and didn't have to spend the time and money to develop him.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Fully developed?  Isn't there a benefit to getting at least a few years at a controlled salary before he moves on?  At $4M instead of $7?  In a Cap world, that would make some sense.

    And if you're willing to pay $7M for a #1Dman, why aren't you re-signing the guy you developed?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Fully developed?  Isn't there a benefit to getting at least a few years at a controlled salary before he moves on?  At $4M instead of $7?  In a Cap world, that would make some sense. And if you're willing to pay $7M for a #1Dman, why aren't you re-signing the guy you developed?
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]
    Book, I was wondering exactly the same thing.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Fully developed?  Isn't there a benefit to getting at least a few years at a controlled salary before he moves on?  At $4M instead of $7?  In a Cap world, that would make some sense. And if you're willing to pay $7M for a #1Dman, why aren't you re-signing the guy you developed?
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Maybe at that time, you aren't in the position to need a defenseman of that quality.  Take Florida for example.  They aren't going to need an elite level defenseman for many years.  Why pour all that money and time into someone when instead, they can just go get one when they need one?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Other than Chris Pronger, who moves a lot for a franchise defenseman, how often do you have the chance to just go get one of these guys when you do need him? Just this year, both Columbus and Buffalo overpaid second-or-maybe-fourth tier guys because they feel they're now at the point where they need a franchise defenseman, but there weren't any available.  Roler pointed out on another thread, there aren't that many over 27 in the league right now which is partly why non-franchise D are making $6M+ these days.

    How much further along would Florida be right now if they had a) developed Bouwmeester in a more stable system and with more patience - then signed him; b) drafted any player drafted after Bouwmeester in 2002?

    Bruins were very fortunate that Ottawa locked up Redden not Chara.  Ducks were very fortunate that Pronger's wife doesn't consider a really big mall enough of a culture to offset the cold.  Avalanche were lottery winners when Harry gave Bourque an exit.

    Strategically, I could this line of argument: successfully developing a franchise defenseman is worth at least four first round picks, but the odds you'll end up with a franchise defenseman just by picking the best D prospect available to you for four consecutive drafts aren't great.  Much better to put a mega-offer sheet in front of Doughty or Weber when you're entering a "window" where you can compete for a championship because you know that the compensation is worth less than the certainty you're buying re: the player's abilities.

    Even then, depending on the player, I'd want to take a chance that a kid like Hamiliton will be playing at a very high level by the time he's 21 so I can have two top end D for about 2/3rds their combined market value.  That's the kind of value proposition that lets you manage the cap to win.  How many of the players on the Cup roster were signed to pre-UFA deals and how influential was that in putting together a roster with great depth?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    BB-
    Great post, I think this addresses something that was talked about earlier though, which is the NHL's need to some how better protects teams in regards to that second contract..  Teams spend alot of money on these guys, LA got their value out of doughty, he's played at a very high level for his entire entry level deal..

    But in Hamilton's case lets say, if he plays out 2 years in juniors, spend his first season and a half in providence, and then finally hits his stride at the end of his EL, the bruins have invested 5 years into him with only an 18 month return, and he can now hold the team at his will or force a trade since their is no regulation on RFA second contracts..

    PK subban comes to mind as a guy who could be this, last year was his second pro season and he was good, if he has a great season this year wil he cripple montreal knowing he can probably hold out and force an offer sheet, meanwhile montreal had 4-5 years invested in him only getting 2 in return...

    I would love to see a move that gives the team the ability to sign a player to a 3 year second contact at some kind of figure, if the contract expires before he hits UFA status.. Meaning this contract can not buy up UFA years, but boston for instance could lock hamilton up for 3 more seasons on a deal worth 75% of the top 5 d men salaries in the league etc if he has really blossomed and they are struggling to come to terms.. but when this deal expires he would have hit UFA status.   If the team locks the guy up longer then that, that rule goes out the window, but this would be something the team has the right to do(maybe arbitration becomes a 3 year binding contract instead of one?)

    The NHL needs to examine how to do something cause  a team that gets doughty for 3 years on his EL is getting a great deal, but what about that d man who is just showing flashes at the end of his 3rd year (nas arguement) but really wants to seek max value, even though he is an RFA..

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    7 D taken in the 1st 15 picks of the 2008 draft. 6 of those players are still with the team that drafted them and Doughty is the only 1 whose team is having trouble with a 2nd contract. Bogosian,Karlson,Myers,Schenn,Pietrangelo are all playing big minutes for the team that drafted them. Teubert(#13-LA) was dealt to Edmonton and still has 2 years left on is entry-level contract.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]7 D taken in the 1st 15 picks of the 2008 draft. 6 of those players are still with the team that drafted them and Doughty is the only 1 whose team is having trouble with a 2nd contract. Bogosian,Karlson,Myers,Schenn,Pietrangelo are all playing big minutes for the team that drafted them. Teubert(#13-LA) was dealt to Edmonton and still has 2 years left on is entry-level contract.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    Doughtys a class well ahead of those guys though.. Buffalo was smart to extend myers when the did.. Pietrangelo is starting to look really good though, but most of those guys havent come off their EL yet...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : Doughtys a class well ahead of those guys though.. Buffalo was smart to extend myers when the did.. Pietrangelo is starting to look really good though, but most of those guys havent come off their EL yet...
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    Which means the teams that hold their rights are still in control for the near future. I'm not being argumentative when I say that I don't see a big difference between drafting a forward or a D with a high pick. Throwing a top 5 pick out on a goalie......that, I think is a sketchy move.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]7 D taken in the 1st 15 picks of the 2008 draft. 6 of those players are still with the team that drafted them and Doughty is the only 1 whose team is having trouble with a 2nd contract. Bogosian,Karlson,Myers,Schenn,Pietrangelo are all playing big minutes for the team that drafted them. Teubert(#13-LA) was dealt to Edmonton and still has 2 years left on is entry-level contract.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    How many of those guys are where they are going to be?  Schenn is just starting to come around.  Bogosian has stated publically that he's behind.  Karlson is starting.  Myers is locked up. 

    Let's see where these guys are when they hit their peaks.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : How many of those guys are where they are going to be?  Schenn is just starting to come around.  Bogosian has stated publically that he's behind.  Karlson is starting.  Myers is locked up.  Let's see where these guys are when they hit their peaks.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]
    Deal!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : Which means the teams that hold their rights are still in control for the near future. I'm not being argumentative when I say that I don't see a big difference between drafting a forward or a D with a high pick. Throwing a top 5 pick out on a goalie......that, I think is a sketchy move.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    I think the point in NAS post, (as stated) is these guys are just starting to come around if anything, and will they still be with these teams when they start to peak..

    The idea of not drafting a D man isnt based on the EL.. ITs based on free agency, and the theory, that defensemen peak later.  So while you may still own the rights on a forward at the end of his first contract, a defensemen isnt considered to be in his peak till 26-27..

    IT really all depends on how much service you get out of a guy, and at what price, while loosing doughty for LA would be dissapointing, they certainly got a great value out of him, but he's an anamoly..

    Mcquaid is just getting there, if he really blossoms to a top d man, hell come up for free agency when this deal runs out, the bruins spent 4 years on turning him over to another team...  (not a great example) but thats kind of the arguement..
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : I think the point in NAS post, (as stated) is these guys are just starting to come around if anything, and will they still be with these teams when they start to peak.. The idea of not drafting a D man isnt based on the EL.. ITs based on free agency, and the theory, that defensemen peak later.  So while you may still own the rights on a forward at the end of his first contract, a defensemen isnt considered to be in his peak till 26-27.. IT really all depends on how much service you get out of a guy, and at what price, while loosing doughty for LA would be dissapointing, they certainly got a great value out of him, but he's an anamoly.. Mcquaid is just getting there, if he really blossoms to a top d man, hell come up for free agency when this deal runs out, the bruins spent 4 years on turning him over to another team...  (not a great example) but thats kind of the arguement..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    And the point I'm making is that it looks like most of these guys will be with the team that drafted them when they start to peak and if they aren't, it'll be due mostly to the team deciding to move them for other significant assets. I just don't think the elite D-man is as easily obtained later on as NAS believes them to be. I think if Boston hadn't managed to out-schmooze 29 other teams in obtaining Chara, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead we'd be lamenting the idea of how difficult it is to win in this league without a stud D-man.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : And the point I'm making is that it looks like most of these guys will be with the team that drafted them when they start to peak and if they aren't, it'll be due mostly to the team deciding to move them for other significant assets. I just don't think the elite D-man is as easily obtained later on as NAS believes them to be. I think if Boston hadn't managed to out-schmooze 29 other teams in obtaining Chara, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead we'd be lamenting the idea of how difficult it is to win in this league without a stud D-man.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    I totally agree with that statement, but my point is none of those guys are even close to their prime, Weber is getting there and all the speculation is that he won't be in Nashville after this season..

    ITs guys coming up on 25-27 that area actually hitting their prime, coming off your EL isnt your prime as a d man, which is whay NAA meant by lets see when they get there..

    I for one was psyched to see the bruins finally draft a potential top line defensemen..
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : I totally agree with that statement, but my point is none of those guys are even close to their prime, Weber is getting there and all the speculation is that he won't be in Nashville after this season.. ITs guys coming up on 25-27 that area actually hitting their prime, coming off your EL isnt your prime as a d man, which is whay NAA meant by lets see when they get there.. I for one was psyched to see the bruins finally draft a potential top line defensemen..
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]
    As am I.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Cha-Ching. 8 years at 7 million. Throwing out the mind boggling aspect of how much pro athletes make, this sounds like a fair deal for both sides and lets the league and King's fans know they are in it for the long haul. This is a move the Kings HAD to make.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Is that all?

    Bob McKenzie's comments were smart.  Kings need Doughty.  They very publicly stated they wouldn't exceed Kopitar's contract, but they need Doughty.  Good for Lombardi for recognizing that it's more important to have the player and look like a bit of an idiot than to hold the line over $200K.  The idiot part is of his own making.

    Kings think they're in a window, and have spent accordingly up to this point.  Letting Doughty sit would be like spending big money to build a house with all the fancy touches - granite this, marble that - but telling the builder to cut support beams if the budget gets tight.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Frankly, both sides look a bit silly, if all this was over $200,000/yr.  It's a lot of money to us, but it's 2.9% above the $6.8m that was the apparent "ceiling" set by the Kings (and, I assume, the Kings previous offer).  As I said before, at this level of pay, it's all about "ego" vs. "drawing lines in the sand".  That extra 2.9% in his bank account (especially after the IRS gets through with it) will not enhance Doughty's life to any noticeable extent.

    On a completely separate note, I'm stoked about attending the first game tonight in the refurbished BC Place Stadium.  I can't wait to see what $563m worth of renovations looks like.
     

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