Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    BB,
    Nice post.. I think the big value in doughty as well, is In my opinion, defensemen are in kind of a low right now, out side of Lindstrom and pronger, there is no d man I look at and think yeah this guy is headed to the hall, there are a larger sample of forwards who can make that arguement by continuing on their current career path.. Doughty (extremely early) is the closest thing I see to that right now, and hes 21..
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    When I read this thread it reminded me of listening on the radio yesterday to Doug Maclean trying to pronounce player's names . Nick Kypreos said "wow , are you ever butchering their names today."

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    You wouldn't put Weber in with Lindstrom and Doughty's class of defenseman Roler ?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]You wouldn't put Weber in with Lindstrom and Doughty's class of defenseman Roler ?
    Posted by SanDogBrewin[/QUOTE]

    Lindstrom is a different class, he is at the tale end of his career, I put him in with the bourque, stevens, chelios, pronger age of d men, when it was much stronger.. Weber was good last season, but I wouldnt put him in that class of d men..
    I see more potential in Doughty to get there.. I am not saying He is currently the best d man in the league at this time, but his level of play coupled with his age, I think he will be the better then webber yes, I would liken his game more towards bourques etc..

    More specifically San dog, when I am speaking of the lag of play, can you think of a 30-32 year old dman who has HOF potential? looks like if he continues his level of play he would be in?  Thats the class I don't see, I think doughty is the best of the young class..
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Yah I would give Doughty an edge over Weber right now, not too much though. When Chara and Pronger wind down their careers I think the first two defenseman fans will mention as the top two will be to start with Doughty and Weber.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Yah I would give Doughty an edge over Weber right now, not too much though. When Chara and Pronger wind down their careers I think the first two defenseman fans will mention as the top two will be to start with Doughty and Weber.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin[/QUOTE]

    Chara, case in point, with out a few more norris's and an offensive upside, no chance at the hall in my opinion..

    I think Subban will be in the discussion by then.. Johnson if he ever pans out..Webber needs to continue to improve his offensive game in my opinion, his 48 points last year was a career high, can he build on that?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : nite's pretty much got this one.  Doughty is a world class player now - not a question of potential, but right now.  Myers simply isn't.  People hold Doughty's point drop off against him, but don't mention a similar drop out of Myers.  They don't mention Doughty had a nagging knee problem either (though injuries are injuries and boo boos are boo boos, buttercup).  Myers has been targetted in two playoff years, and he's been invisible because of it - better this year in terms of points, but not really in terms of overall performance.  Against Boston as a rookie, he was shut down. Tell me, based on all the players who've come in big but soft, how many players "develop" a physical edge at the pro level?  And of that very small subset, how many manage to develop a physical edge and continue to play high-end skill games?  Just because Myers is big doesn't mean he'll ever be a physical presence.  Doughty's built like Bourque, not tall but heavy and solid.  He's proven his skating will let him dominate in world level games.  He has a superb shot.  The kid is dynamite. I think Doughty and Stamkos is a wash at this point.  And that means, for me, you take the defenseman over the forward every day and twice on Sunday. 
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    I understand the preference for a defenseman and how short the supply is compared to the demand but for me, not when the forward is of Stamkos' stature. Any defenseman not named Orr I'll take Crosby,Ovechkin,, Malkin and Stamkos over them all day.Could even make an argument for Iginla and Datsyuk, Just to name the players today. I think G.M's today if they were building a roster would take any of those guys over d-man...

    P.S It's Lidstrom guys!! Stop putting the N in there...
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty? : I understand the preference for a defenseman and how short the supply is compared to the demand but for me, not when the forward is of Stamkos' stature. Any defenseman not named Orr I'll take Crosby,Ovechkin,, Malkin and Stamkos over them all day.Could even make an argument for Iginla and Datsyuk, Just to name the players today. I think G.M's today if they were building a roster would take any of those guys over d-man... P.S It's Lidstrom guys!! Stop putting the N in there...
    Posted by kelvana33[/QUOTE]
    Some GM's would. Others will still prefer to build a team from the back end out. NJ had decent success with that formula for a number of years. Boston has also always had a star D to build around. Your point is a valid one though. It's hard to dismiss 50 goal talent for a D man.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Kelvana, it depends on the forward for sure.. In this case doughty was available in the same draft, there was discussion last year with "even with a 50 goal season, did tampa get the better palyer in the draft".. Stamkos is good, but hes not crosby, I wouldnt call him ovechkin at this point either..

    Tampa lacks that franchise d man.. If they have doughty over stamkos do the bruins make it past tampa?  Cause they are loaded up front..

    And there are more forwards that come to mind when you are talking about elite, potential hall of famers, franchise players, then there are on the back end..

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Ok, admittedly most of you guys have watched a lot more of Doughty than I. He is already excellent and one of the top 5 in the league, but the question remains...if he snubbed 6.8 x 9, just what is the kid looking for?? A way out of LA? 7-7.5 x 10? Short term to keep UFA mega-payday in tact? If his modus operandi is aiming for the cash jackpot (which is certainly his right), I think he may end up hamstringing himself and/or team that pays it. There comes a point of diminishing returns if you can't surround him with enough depth to make a legit run at the cup.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Ok, admittedly most of you guys have watched a lot more of Doughty than I. He is already excellent and one of the top 5 in the league, but the question remains...if he snubbed 6.8 x 9, just what is the kid looking for?? A way out of LA? 7-7.5 x 10? Short term to keep UFA mega-payday in tact? If his modus operandi is aiming for the cash jackpot (which is certainly his right), I think he may end up hamstringing himself and/or team that pays it. There comes a point of diminishing returns if you can't surround him with enough depth to make a legit run at the cup.
    Posted by seobrien[/QUOTE]



    According to what I heard this morning, he wants a 6-8 year deal, LA is offering 9.. And they are apart on money.. My thought is, he wants to hit UFA status before 30? 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    If the Bruins trade Chara for Ovechkin last year, do they win the Cup?  I really don't think so (and yeah, it's completely hypothetical).  Yeah, the Bruins were built around Chara so there'd be the huge hole, but think about even that argument.  The Caps have been built around Ovechkin for years now.  Results?  I'm not even talking Cups - have they graduated the way the Bruins have as the Chara centred Chiarelli program has progressed?  Nope.

    This is hockey's version of drive for show, putt for dough.  A 50 goal scorer puts butts in seats; a 30 min. defenseman who controls play up and down the sheet and scores 50+ points (in this era) puts trophies in the case, though the average fan in Florida probably doesn't understand how much influence he has on the game.  I don't feel the romance of the 50 goal scorer the way some people do because I really don't understand what he does that makes you so much better as a team.  If you score 250 goals and one guy gets 50 of them, are you better or worse, more or less successful, than the team that scores 250 goals with no one player over 30?

    This isn't a supply and demand argument; it's an impact argument.  Doughty will have more impact than Stamkos over his career even if Stamkos wins more major hardware.  There are very, very few forwards who are good enough to upset that balance of impact - Lemieux, Gretzky - and have the most impact regardless of position, but they force everyone to change they way they play out of fear of embarrassment.  There isn't a player in the game today who has that kind of impact, but in Lidstrom you still see the last vestiges of a guy who, from the blueline, owns the whole sheet. Gotta love Datsyuk, but if I'm Ken Holland and I have to choose between him and Lidstrom, Pavel gets the goodbye handshake.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]If the Bruins trade Chara for Ovechkin last year, do they win the Cup?  I really don't think so (and yeah, it's completely hypothetical).  Yeah, the Bruins were built around Chara so there'd be the huge hole, but think about even that argument.  The Caps have been built around Ovechkin for years now.  Results?  I'm not even talking Cups - have they graduated the way the Bruins have as the Chara centred Chiarelli program has progressed?  Nope. This is hockey's version of drive for show, putt for dough.  A 50 goal scorer puts butts in seats; a 30 min. defenseman who controls play up and down the sheet and scores 50+ points (in this era) puts trophies in the case, though the average fan in Florida probably doesn't understand how much influence he has on the game.  I don't feel the romance of the 50 goal scorer the way some people do because I really don't understand what he does that makes you so much better as a team.  If you score 250 goals and one guy gets 50 of them, are you better or worse, more or less successful, than the team that scores 250 goals with no one player over 30? This isn't a supply and demand argument; it's an impact argument.  Doughty will have more impact than Stamkos over his career even if Stamkos wins more major hardware.  There are very, very few forwards who are good enough to upset that balance of impact - Lemieux, Gretzky - and have the most impact regardless of position, but they force everyone to change they way they play out of fear of embarrassment.  There isn't a player in the game today who has that kind of impact, but in Lidstrom you still see the last vestiges of a guy who, from the blueline, owns the whole sheet. Gotta love Datsyuk, but if I'm Ken Holland and I have to choose between him and Lidstrom, Pavel gets the goodbye handshake.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Just for clarification are you talking based on their whole careers with this statement.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Having seen Doughty play against the Canucks a lot over the past several years (not so much Myers), I think he's definitely an elite d-man.  I agree with several others here, in that he was the best blueliner on a stacked Team Canada 2010 defense, and that in itself should end the discussion. 

    The thing that bothers me, and some others have touched on it, is that the difference between $6.8/yr and $7.5 (or whatever number), is purely ego -- partly on the players' part, but probably partly on the agent, as well.  For any one of us, that $700,000 difference is a lottery win, but for someone like Doughty, what's it mean to him?  The marginal tax rate on that $700,000 is probably something like 75%, so what's he gonna do with the extra $175,000 in his pocket?  How many Porsches does a guy need? 

    IMO, holding out over something which will, in the end, have such a minor impact upon your lifestyle is bordering on asinine.  Sign for $6.8, share the "highest paid player on the team" title with AK, and get to work! 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Yes, meaning past and future.  Maybe its clearer if I say give me a choice between a prime Pavel Datsyuk and a prime Nik Lidstrom....

    I'd take either over anyone named Lindstrom currently playing in any league - though Joakim Lindstrom did put up 60 points in 58 SEL games.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from beantowngm15. Show beantowngm15's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    From what I've seen from Bob McKenzie on Twitter, the problem lies in the money. The team is only willing to go to Kopitar money, $6.8M cap hit, but Doughty wants to be the highest paid player on the team. Sounds like he's still in Ontario while the team is reporting to camp too. Might just be me, but it sounds oddly familiar...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Great post Bookboy. I totally agree with you the B's are built around Chara, and the Caps are built around Ovechkin. Do either teams win if you trade players? I'd have to say neither team win if you make that trade. I really want to say if you put Thomas on last years Caps team they win, but the way he played you could probably say that about a handful of teams.

    For me, I think an elite forward has a bigger impact. But, and this helps your argument if you look at the teams that have won recently, only Boston did not have what I would call an elite forward, and it took one of the best goaltending performances of all time to win. Chicago has Kane who I put as an elite talent but  while they don't have a world class d-man they had a group of very, very good d-men. Pitt had the two forwards and to me, Fleury is an elite goalie, detroit obviously a mix...So I guess, when it comes down to Stamkos and Doughty, it's who builds around them better and to me It's the Kings. I say they play the Caps in the finals this year. We could go back and forth all day on this one but I like your post, as usual.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Thanks, kel - good debate!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Kel- I started to go that route, but the year that chicago won it, keith won the norris.. And the cast around him was superb as well, and that team basically only had a weakness in net. Plus they're timing was just right, a year earlier and they young guys havent matured enough, a year later and they have to blow up half the team..

    Thats Why i went the pittsburg route, while orpik is a good defensive dman, theres not elite guys on their back end, and no one i think you can argue is in that catagory..

    The ony thing i will say, I think its easier to keep a player off the board, then it is to put up the point when you need too.. Do you want to go into the game knowing that a forward has to beat them to win, or that you just have to keep their guy off the board to win.. Its easier to do the latter of the two..

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    The trick with the Pitt argument?  If they only had Crosby, do they win?  If they only had Malkin, do they win?  And they did have Gonchar and Letang (named above as a guy who might continue to grow in stature) on top of Orpik and Gill.  

    Even I might change my tune if you offered me two 50 goal scorers for my 1 elite defenseman...but even then, you're not talking about 50 goal scorers (between them, Crosby and Malkin have one 50 goal season) so much as dominant offensive players.  So offer me two dominant offensive forwards for my one dominating defenseman and it would be hard to say no.  Offer me Mike Gartner and Dennis Maruk?  No thanks.

     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]The trick with the Pitt argument?  If they only had Crosby, do they win?  If they only had Malkin, do they win?  And they did have Gonchar and Letang (named above as a guy who might continue to grow in stature) on top of Orpik and Gill.   Even I might change my tune if you offered me two 50 goal scorers for my 1 elite defenseman...but even then, you're not talking about 50 goal scorers (between them, Crosby and Malkin have one 50 goal season) so much as dominant offensive players.  So offer me two dominant offensive forwards for my one dominating defenseman and it would be hard to say no.  Offer me Mike Gartner and Dennis Maruk?  No thanks.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    This is in regards to how the team is built, I mentioned them earlier.. Pittsburg is built around crosby, wouldnt you agree??  And while they are good on the back end, they are better up front.. Chicago was arguably better up front, but they did have the norris winner on the back end was my point.


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    I will end my debate with this.  Another thing we can debate as the season goes.  I predict Myers has a better year and his team goes farther in the playoffs. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]I will end my debate with this.  Another thing we can debate as the season goes.  I predict Myers has a better year and his team goes farther in the playoffs. 
    Posted by shuperman[/QUOTE]

    Then last season? or then the Kings??
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    Good points all, I think it's pretty much this. Wether your an elite defenseman or forward you need a solid group to help either way. We can argue which one is more valuable but at the end of the day a red hot goalie can overcome both. Thomas had Chara obviously not saying he won it by himself, to me the last goalie who did that was Roy in 93. Hasek was great but they didnt win it all.

    Also and just to be clear, I'm not saying 50 goals makes an elite player. Good point with Maruk and Gartner, but I do consider Datsyuk an elite player, Zetterberg not far behind. Lidstrom lost those two last year for a time and had his worst year numbers wise.
     
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    Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?

    In Response to Re: Myers At 5.5m-How Much For Doughty?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, meaning past and future.  Maybe its clearer if I say give me a choice between a prime Pavel Datsyuk and a prime Nik Lidstrom....I'd take either over anyone named Lindstrom currently playing in any league - though Joakim Lindstrom did put up 60 points in 58 SEL games.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Agreed , even though I love the way Datsyuk plays.

    I see you noticed my Kypreos-MacLean conversation. Would there by any chance have been a Sequin playing in that league also ?
     

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