NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to days-of-Orr's comment:

     

    Dez, i think that's what it means too....

    unlike in 2005 players are refusing a rollback, which is their right to do so....

    don't see why some on here are having trouble understanding their fight, although i have a good idea....

    [/QUOTE]


    Days, I also haven't seen very many (none actually) good suggestions as to what the players should've done to avoid being locked out.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]
    I'm not a lawyer but I don't read it that way. It says all contracts are bound by the CBA. That doesn't mean the owners are free to rollback if they want. It means they are free to do it if that's what's agreed upon in the new CBA. That's why the players are refusing to agree to a new CBA with that provision right? I'm not being argumentative, that's just what it looks like to me. If the players agree to sign a rollback into the new CBA, then there will be one. If not, there won't.

    [/QUOTE]


    I understand your point of view. The players do have the right to say no to the rollback. That is why we have the current standoff.

    I just feel, that because all contracts are bound by the new CBA, a reduction in the players' share in revenue has to result in a decrease in the amount of money owed to the players.Without a roll-back, a majority of teams would suddenly find themselves well over the new, lower cap, without any clear way of becoming cap compliant.

    Right now, the NHL wants an immediate 50-50 split and the NHLPA wants to take about 4 years to get to that level. At some point, the 2 sides will need to compromise.

    The numbers are close enough, that it is ridiculous that they are not playing hockey, at this point.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that everything can be on the table, in contract negotiations. I personally, don't like the players', seemingly sense of entitlement to something they willingly agreed to forego, when they signed their contract.

    I also question why this has become the #1 issue with the NHLPA, when it would create a pay scale imbalance between the 60% with contracts, and the 40%, without.

    I also feel, that a players' vote to accept the current offer, would be considered a loss by Fehr, in the media. I don't know the man, but he does not strike me, as a man who would easily accept defeat.

    [/QUOTE]


    That's where I think the issue is getting confused biggskye.  They didn't "willingly agree" to anything pertaining to the contract that's being negotiated now.  They didn't agree to a smaller share of HRR post 2012 when they signed their last contract either.  They're not reneging on anything.

    As far as Fehr accepting defeat...you could be right.  I don't think either side has an edge in that department though.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to biggskye's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I understand your point of view. The players do have the right to say no to the rollback. That is why we have the current standoff.

    I just feel, that because all contracts are bound by the new CBA, a reduction in the players' share in revenue has to result in a decrease in the amount of money owed to the players.Without a roll-back, a majority of teams would suddenly find themselves well over the new, lower cap, without any clear way of becoming cap compliant.

    Right now, the NHL wants an immediate 50-50 split and the NHLPA wants to take about 4 years to get to that level. At some point, the 2 sides will need to compromise.

    The numbers are close enough, that it is ridiculous that they are not playing hockey, at this point.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's a relief for me Bigs. I was starting to think I was speaking another language as it seemed nobody was getting what I was trying to say. I totally agree that the numbers are close enough that they should be playing but again, that's on the owners now. The NHLPA has already made serious concessions. Eventually enough has to be enough. Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    There is only so much money to go around.  The players can play for much less and still live quite comfortable lives.  The owners need a certain amount of money to run their businesses.

    The players need to FO, sign and get back to the ice.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There is only so much money to go around.  The players can play for much less and still live quite comfortable lives.  The owners need a certain amount of money to run their businesses.

    The players need to FO, sign and get back to the ice.

    [/QUOTE]

    And the owners need to FO & stop making the players pay pay for their mistakes!!! Goes both way here!

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bim09. Show bim09's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    Amen to that.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There is only so much money to go around.  The players can play for much less and still live quite comfortable lives.  The owners need a certain amount of money to run their businesses.

    The players need to FO, sign and get back to the ice.

    [/QUOTE]

    And the owners need to FO & stop making the players pay pay for their mistakes!!! Goes both way here!

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree to an extent, Night, but remember that there is only so much money to go around.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There is only so much money to go around.  The players can play for much less and still live quite comfortable lives.  The owners need a certain amount of money to run their businesses.

    The players need to FO, sign and get back to the ice.

    [/QUOTE]


    Your thoughts?

    blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do...           
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    I think the author is swinging a pretty heavy hammer throughout the article and then falls completely apart at the end, basically saying that he is wrong about it.

    "

    Unfortunately, it is impossible to know what the situation is in other NHL cities. NHL teams are private companies, and have no obligation to divulge their financial data. But the fact that the Panthers are seen as one of the poorest clubs in the league suggests that the vast majority of NHL teams are doing just fine.

    Update

    As Erin Bolen points out at SBNation, the audit by Broward County is limited to financial date for the Arena Operating Company, the division of Sunrise Sports & Entertainment.

    This doesn’t shift the two basic points of this piece highlighted in bold. The AOC is incredibly profitable, and SSE only gets to run it because of the Panthers, so the Panthers still serve as a gateway. Additionally, a 90% drop in total AOC profitability in a lockout year remains highly interesting when the number of hockey events should only represent roughly one-third of their total revenue.

    However, with that said the above piece at times confuses the financial data for the arena operating company with the financial data for Sunrise Sports and Entertainment, due to my misreading portions of the audit. That’s an important distinction to make, and one that I failed to make in my reading of the audit."

    http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do-billionaires-keep-buying-teams-that-lose-money/

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    It is an interesting article to read.  I can't believe it ended with "Oh, and the numbers I used to come up with all of this?  Yeah, I sort of read them wrong.  Sorry."

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to biggskye's comment: [QUOTE] In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]   "No wonder the owners are so irritated with this entire negotiation."

    The owners put the last CBA in place, they are part of the process. Laughable the board of govenors think they are in the right in comparison to what Fehr wants for his clients at every turn. Players knew the owners would want the 57% back after they gave it up. Hence the hiring of Fehr. The initial offer by the owners was insulting and done with a straight face.

    [/QUOTE] I've said it before, but maybe they would be playing hockey right now, if the players and agents had not circumvented the previous CBA, with the long-term contracts.

    I understand that the owners had to agree to those deals, but that just means, both sides were in the wrong. I can understand why the owners would want to "idiot-proof" the next CBA, to protect themselves from the agents, and well, themselves. [/QUOTE]

    I would agree that there has to be limits on contract terms, it got out of hand. I think they will meet somewhere in between on dollar amount of the make whole. The owners won't pay 100%.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is an interesting article to read.  I can't believe it ended with "Oh, and the numbers I used to come up with all of this?  Yeah, I sort of read them wrong.  Sorry."

     

    [/QUOTE]


      The author did make some minor accounting errors, and was smart enough to admit them, however, the spirit of the article is dead on.  Concentrating on every sticky detail misses the target.

    The point of the article is that in most cases, profit and loss are decisions, not necessarily realities.  Virtually all NHL teams are the sum of several businesses.  Owning that team, gives the operator several venues to create profit, that wouldn't be available if he didn't own it.  The "team" may show a loss, but the whole venture is profitable.

    The Florida Panthers are a real life relevant example, as they're considered at about the bottom of the totem pole.   One can argue semantics all day long, but the reality is that franchise values have risen nicely over the last 40 years.  They don't become "worth more" by losing money hand over fist.  

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    " I think it's frustrating for everybody and disappointing for everybody that's it's taken this long and we're still far apart, " Bettman said.

    Informed of Bettman's comments, union head Donald Fehr said " my response is they seem to consider negotiating to be merely agreeing with them." " We've identified what's important to players, but they seem to be so far at least unwilling to treat those concerns in a serious way, " Fehr said.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    " I think it's frustrating for everybody and disappointing for everybody that's it's taken this long and we're still far apart, " Bettman said.

    Informed of Bettman's comments, union head Donald Fehr said " my response is they seem to consider negotiating to be merely agreeing with them." " We've identified what's important to players, but they seem to be so far at least unwilling to treat those concerns in a serious way, " Fehr said.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it's funny that Fehr keeps talking like this.  He never gives any specifics.  "what's important to the players"  could be just about anything under the sun. 

    I am beginning to doubt there will be a season this year.  I am also going to laugh when the players sign next summer without the $211M available.  Jokingly, I'd also like to see the owners get UFA status cranked back to 32 years old.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    " I think it's frustrating for everybody and disappointing for everybody that's it's taken this long and we're still far apart, " Bettman said.

    Informed of Bettman's comments, union head Donald Fehr said " my response is they seem to consider negotiating to be merely agreeing with them." " We've identified what's important to players, but they seem to be so far at least unwilling to treat those concerns in a serious way, " Fehr said.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it's funny that Fehr keeps talking like this.  He never gives any specifics.  "what's important to the players"  could be just about anything under the sun. 

    I am beginning to doubt there will be a season this year.  I am also going to laugh when the players sign next summer without the $211M available.  Jokingly, I'd also like to see the owners get UFA status cranked back to 32 years old.

    [/QUOTE]

    Money,money,money, thats all i want.Give me money,thats what i like.Money,money,money, thats what i need,give me money.Anyway i have to agree, its looking like no season, as i don't consider a 48 or 40 game schedule much of one. then you have only interconference play and if a team has a rough stretch there is no time for them to turn it around.One slump and done.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    " I think it's frustrating for everybody and disappointing for everybody that's it's taken this long and we're still far apart, " Bettman said.

    Informed of Bettman's comments, union head Donald Fehr said " my response is they seem to consider negotiating to be merely agreeing with them." " We've identified what's important to players, but they seem to be so far at least unwilling to treat those concerns in a serious way, " Fehr said.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it's funny that Fehr keeps talking like this.  He never gives any specifics.  "what's important to the players"  could be just about anything under the sun. 

    I am beginning to doubt there will be a season this year.  I am also going to laugh when the players sign next summer without the $211M available.  Jokingly, I'd also like to see the owners get UFA status cranked back to 32 years old.

    [/QUOTE]


    Here are the specifics. I'm not sure how you missed it since it's on TSN........what more did you need to know? You're acting like Fehr is being cryptic and secretive. If anything, it seems like the union is being totally transparent in these "negotiations". What's next, are you going to take issue with the fact he's going grey? I found all of this info without even hiring a detective. I am actually interested in the real issues though, not just whether or not it affects me personally.

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    Yeah, I missed that.  It happens. 

    As I stated in another thread, you are no longer capable of having a civil conversation with about any topic relating to the lockout, so from here on out, I will not be replying to anything you've written.

    And, if I'm calling you out for being a shitstorm, you gotta know it's bad.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    Like Bettman, Fehr is acting on behalf of client(s). The owners authorized these ridiculous contracts and the players want them whole. The NHLPA knew the owners had intent to roll them back months even years ago. The Players also know they have conceded a ton of HRR (apparel sales etc.) knowing it will keep climbing for the next 5 seasons like it did the last 5, so coming down from 57% is going to be allot of dough no question.

    What do the owners do when when Fehr presented the proposal, walked away instead of countering. The ball is in the owners court now...

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Like Bettman, Fehr is acting on behalf of client(s). The owners authorized these ridiculous contracts and the players want them whole. The NHLPA knew the owners had intent to roll them back months even years ago. The Players also know they have conceded a ton of HRR (apparel sales etc.) knowing it will keep climbing for the next 5 seasons like it did the last 5, so coming down from 57% is going to be allot of dough no question.

    What do the owners do when when Fehr presented the proposal, walked away instead of countering. The ball is in the owners court now...

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The owners agreed to give them $211M. 

    The players demanded $393M.

    The owners declined.

    It's not up to the owners to come back with another proposal.  It's up to the players to say, "You know what?  The last time we had a reasonable offer on the table and declined it, we ended up missing a season and getting a worse deal overall.  Let's take this $211M and get back to work."

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    Well just about anything...

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Like Bettman, Fehr is acting on behalf of client(s). The owners authorized these ridiculous contracts and the players want them whole. The NHLPA knew the owners had intent to roll them back months even years ago. The Players also know they have conceded a ton of HRR (apparel sales etc.) knowing it will keep climbing for the next 5 seasons like it did the last 5, so coming down from 57% is going to be allot of dough no question.

    What do the owners do when when Fehr presented the proposal, walked away instead of countering. The ball is in the owners court now...

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The owners agreed to give them $211M. 

    The players demanded $393M.

    The owners declined.

    It's not up to the owners to come back with another proposal.  It's up to the players to say, "You know what?  The last time we had a reasonable offer on the table and declined it, we ended up missing a season and getting a worse deal overall.  Let's take this $211M and get back to work."

    [/QUOTE]


    You've mentioned this before, and also suggested the league offerred  something like a 50 mil cap.

    I wasn't aware of that.  I thought their best offer was around 42 mil, and that didn't include tieing it to a percent of HRR moving forward.  If that is correct, the deal the PA signed off on, really wasn't worse than earlier options.

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yeah, I missed that.  It happens. 

    As I stated in another thread, you are no longer capable of having a civil conversation with about any topic relating to the lockout, so from here on out, I will not be replying to anything you've written.

    And, if I'm calling you out for being a shitstorm, you gotta know it's bad.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's not bad. It's transparent and pathetic.  I remember when you used to at least take pride in having an opinion and supporting it. Now you'll say just about anything to try to get under people's skin and then cry when you're called out for it. Yeah Nas, big bad Dez is asking too many questions. What a jerk. Regarding you not replying to me, is that a threat or a promise? Either way, it's pathetic and funny to see you brought down to such a level. You're nothing but a bully around here so I've gone out of my way to kick sand in your face. I can't believe you ever had the nerve to ask someone else to man up. What a joke.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: NHL turns down latest NHLPA proposal

    You've understood that completely incorrectly, Dez.

    You've become heyoo.  Nothing you say makes any sense.  I'm not going to explain simple ideas to a retard.  It's not worth my time.

     

     
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