Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    There are many similarities between Ovechkin and Seguin.  Difference is...Seguin is a much better deal, and he's young enough that maybe someday...somebody will get through to him.

    For 9.4, Washington has Ovi.  For just a wee bit less, the Bruins are employing David Krejki, Reilly Smith and Dennis Seidenberg.

    Much need of this going further?



    Wow, that says it all right there. Cap management baby!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco0863. Show marco0863's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to marco0863's comment:

    Was any thread started when ovie was a plus 45 --> 1

    Over the years he's learned to not know how to play without the puck --> 2

    Put him in Boston this year and he's a plus 30 min and AUTOCUP --> 3



    1. Oh, I'm sure there were a ton of threads about what a great player Ovechkin was.  But hey, let's have a look then vs. now, shall we?  Ovechkin had a 109 points that year.  He'll be lucky to hit 82 this year - so his scoring is down 27 points.  It's been signficantly lower than that every year since, though you could argue he had a half-season bounce back last year.  Compare the rosters and he's still go Backstrom. Semin's gone.  The murderers row of Steckel, Morrisson and Laich didn't help him get to 110 or so three straight years.  There weren't a ton of other guys who helped him out.  So - is Semin worth 27 points to Ovechkin on an annual basis (terrible that they let him go if that were true)?  Oh, and the D?  Green, 19 year old Carlson, Erskine, 21 yr old Alzner plus Jurcina, Morrisonn, and Tom Poti - three guys who were soooo good they went out and added Joe Corvo as an upgrade.  So it wasn't that the D was significantly better.  Nor was it coaching.  Boudreau's not exactly a defensive mastermind.  Goaltending?  Varlamov, Theodore and Neuvirth?  Nope, that's not it. 

    2. I agree, he didn't "unlearn" how to play without the puck.  But you know, when a guy isn't performing, it could be because he doesn't know what to do, or it could be he doesn't have the tools, but if he knows what to do and he has the tools to do it, then the only reason there's a performance problem is that he doesn't want to do it.  Ovechkin ain't doing it - that's the whole point here.  He also isn't scoring points the way he did c. 2007-10.  Why do you think that is?

    3. I think there's a very good chance that Ovechkin in Boston would get 30+ goals and be +4.  It would be a lot like Ovechkin under Dale Hunter.  Julien wouldn't care that he's "the Great 8", Chara wouldn't let him dog it without letting him know every time; ditto Lucic, Iginla, maybe even Bergeron.  He'd end up playing 15 min some games the way he did under Dale Hunter.  He'd finish with a Lucic-like 64 points.  He would play the system, or he'd be dealt.  That's how Boston wins.  I like winning.  I like watching Ovechkin highlights after enjoying a Bruins win.



    Ovie would score 30plus in boston? More like 40plus ... 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    So the difference between Ovechkin being a -31 this year and Bergeron being a -28 a few years ago is that Ovechkin should be a better player.

    He's a goal scorer.  That's his game.  That's what he does.  He gets paid to light it up.  And he does, to the tune of about 30% more goals than #2 on the list.  When one of his defensemen takes the puck in a 1 on 2, he's supposed to get going and get a pass across the red line.  Sadly for him, his defensemen suck and they turn it back over, making him look like a dope. 

    Looking at Washington's joke of a defense and their hot or sour goaltending and really, the least of their worries is one of their wingers backchecking.

    Last year, Seguin was a +23 with Jordan Staal at -18. 

    The year before, Team Canada's own Jay Bouwmeester was -20 while free agent to be Mark Streit was -27.

    In 2010-11, two Philly defensemen (Meszaros and Carle) posted +30 while two Ottawa defensemen (Phillips and Karlsson) combined to be -65.

    You know what this tells you?  Nothing. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    So the difference between Ovechkin being a -31 this year and Bergeron being a -28 a few years ago is that Ovechkin should be a better player.

    He's a goal scorer.  That's his game.  That's what he does.  He gets paid to light it up.  And he does, to the tune of about 30% more goals than #2 on the list.  When one of his defensemen takes the puck in a 1 on 2, he's supposed to get going and get a pass across the red line.  Sadly for him, his defensemen suck and they turn it back over, making him look like a dope. 

    Looking at Washington's joke of a defense and their hot or sour goaltending and really, the least of their worries is one of their wingers backchecking.

    Last year, Seguin was a +23 with Jordan Staal at -18. 

    The year before, Team Canada's own Jay Bouwmeester was -20 while free agent to be Mark Streit was -27.

    In 2010-11, two Philly defensemen (Meszaros and Carle) posted +30 while two Ottawa defensemen (Phillips and Karlsson) combined to be -65.

    You know what this tells you?  Nothing. 




    It tells the total tale, my friend. All those big minuses are bad teams with no leadership.

    Washington, all minus players. Ovi biggest minus player of all. Ovi 50-goal scorer can't lead his team.

    When will Leonsis and McPhee wake up?

    Ovi couldn't lead a herd of sheep.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    marco, the 30 range projection is based on the rate at which he scored under Dale Hunter.  Make him play a more complete game, and his production drops.  That's 90% of what we're talking about here.  Ovechkin is a great goalscorer.  Ovechkin has great numbers.  How much is Ovechkin's production increased by cherrypicking? and how much does his cherrypicking contribute to goals against the Capitals?

    If "elite goalscorer" means that he scores more additional goals by playing his cherrypicking game than the Caps give up when he's hanging out at the blueline or in the neutral zone, then keep going with that strategy.  But even if he's scoring 60+ a year, if the number of goals the Caps are giving up with him on the ice is high enough, you have to ask if the team would be better off if Ovechkin scored 35-40 goals and also played defense.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yeah, but he's looking for a breakout pass before his team has possession of the puck.  He!!, I think he's looking for a breakout pass the second Phaneuf releases the pass.  


    ----------

    And here lies the key to how Ovechkin plays in his own end. Thinks offense first before business is taken care of in his own end.

    Yes.......... he's a scoring winger. Scoring swingers in the NHL also have defensive responsibilities. Those who don't don't realize that ? Your opinion sucks.

    A liability......... when his team doesn't have the puck.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to marco0863's comment: 

    Give him crosby and see how more likely they'd be to win cup.  Hes a one man machine backstrom ( not nearly enough) 

    [/QUOTE]

    Give him Crosby. LOL.


    Put marco0863 with Crosby and they'd have a chance at the cup also.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    by playing his cherrypicking game 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    This type of hockey reminds me of the beer league days.

    There were some awfully good goal scoring forwards that helped out in the defensive zone. They knew how to play a complete game.

    As a teammate........... you appreciated their 3 zone play.

    Then there were those who circled in open space , not picking up any open men while skating right by them. Battling along the boards was never in the description on how they played in their own end. In my days we use to shout "Loafers" to warn your teammates of these players who left the zone without his team gaining puck possession. 

    As a teammate .............you could only wish he was playing elsewhere.


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    I'm not one who puts too much stock in +/-, but I think this is a pretty damning relfection on Ovie.

    He's not a youngster, on a terrible team like Yakupov.  He's the team leader on a playoff contending team.  The terrible defensmen we keep noting don't have nearly as bad a +/-.  -31 is such an outlier, it has to tell you something.  I think it tells you two things.

    1. Ovie is only a scorer who simply doesn't play a two-way game.

    2. Having your highest paid player/leader be only a scorer who doesn't play a two-way game doesn't work in the NHL (anymore).  It isn't worth it.  He isn't worth it.

    And remind me at my next pro tryout to let them know that I could be better if I played with Crosby.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    So the difference between Ovechkin being a -31 this year and Bergeron being a -28 a few years ago is that Ovechkin should be a better player.

    He's a goal scorer.  That's his game.  That's what he does.  He gets paid to light it up.  And he does, to the tune of about 30% more goals than #2 on the list.  When one of his defensemen takes the puck in a 1 on 2, he's supposed to get going and get a pass across the red line.  Sadly for him, his defensemen suck and they turn it back over, making him look like a dope. 

    Looking at Washington's joke of a defense and their hot or sour goaltending and really, the least of their worries is one of their wingers backchecking.

    Last year, Seguin was a +23 with Jordan Staal at -18. 

    The year before, Team Canada's own Jay Bouwmeester was -20 while free agent to be Mark Streit was -27.

    In 2010-11, two Philly defensemen (Meszaros and Carle) posted +30 while two Ottawa defensemen (Phillips and Karlsson) combined to be -65.

    You know what this tells you?  Nothing. 



    Already been stated here...that plus/minus isn't everything.  That's already been established.

    To go further and suggest it means "nothing', is jumping off a cliff.  Of course it means something.

    In this particular case...it means much more than usual.  In fact it's surreal.  He's worst on the whole team...despite being "on the ice", when so many Washington goals are scored.

    I know Washingtons defense ain't great,... but that's not the issue.  They all look like Ray Bourque alongside him.  If his defensemen are too incompetent to move the puck...that's an offensive problem, not a defensive one.  Few would suggest Green can't play offense.

    The "goal" is winning.  Superstar athletes understand, and embrace that.  They make adjustments in order to increase their odds of winning.  Ovi is apparently different.  Looks like winning to him, is simply scoring lots of goals.

    I know this statement is overly simplistic, but it's fundamenatally sound and warrants some thought.  Offensively, if things pace as they have so far this year, Ovechkin nets the Caps about 10 goals.

    They miss the playoffs.  Their past has been propped up by playing in an inferior division.

    The "goal" is winning.  Virtually all superstar athletes understand and embrace that.  Ovechkin appears to see things differently.  Looks like his idea of achievment is merely "scoring".  Him scoring.

    Isn't working...hasn't worked.

    I know this is overly simplistic, but it carries a fundamental truth.  Basically... deleting Ovechkin and his salary from Washington, and replacing him with Danny Paille and his salary would be an overall upgrade to the Caps success ratio, if everything remained constant. 

    Plus...that free's up about 8 million in cap space per year to play with.  That would pay for Patrice Bergeron, Carl Soderberg, Torey Krug and Matt Bartowski.

    I think those 5 guys would give the Washington Capitals more wins in 13/14  than current.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    I've been trying to get at the details of how Ovechkin has so much worse a +/- that his teammates, and it is odd.  For instance, Backstrom is on the ice about 75% of the time that Ovechkin is, both 5v5 and 5v4.  He has one fewer short-handed goal against, 5 fewer 5v5 goals against and 3 more goals for.  That's a net of +9 better.  Yet he's only -17.  Where's the other -5 from?  EN goals against?  It kind of seems like Ovechkin must either be rolled out regularly with linemates who aren't his usual partners and don't cover for him adequately, or perhaps he's simply a first-on, last-off skater who is getting burned during the overlaps with other skaters.

    Ovechkin's also a whopping -9 against Columbus and -6 against the Flyers.  That's half his net minus, so there's a case to be made that it's largely those anomalies driving his bad +/-.

    In his defense, he has respectable details against the top 10 teams in the league: -8, but 8 powerplay points (so a net effect of 0 differential - and most of the negative of that coming in 2 games against Colorado).

    Perhaps more should be expected from a superstar, but for comparison's sake Crosby, Krejci, and Bergeron are all only +5 if you look at the numbers that way.  That's not much difference.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    sorry about that earlier post...didn't edit

    [/QUOTE]

    Been stated here...that plus/minus isn't everything.  That's already been established.

    To go further and suggest it means "nothing', is jumping off a cliff.  Of course it means something.

    In this particular case...it means much more than usual.  In fact it's surreal.  He's worst on the whole team...despite being "on the ice", when so many Washington goals are scored.

    I know Washingtons defense ain't great,... but that's not the issue.  They all look like Ray Bourque alongside him.  If his defensemen are too incompetent to move the puck...that's an offensive problem, not a defensive one.  Few would suggest Green can't play offense.

    The "goal" is winning.  Superstar athletes understand, and embrace that.  They make adjustments in order to increase their odds of winning.  Ovi is apparently different.  Looks like winning to him, is simply scoring lots of goals.

    Isn't working...hasn't worked.

    I know this is overly simplistic, but it carries a fundamental truth.  Basically... deleting Ovechkin and his salary from Washington, and replacing him with Danny Paille and his salary would be an overall upgrade to the Caps success ratio, if everything remained constant. 

    Plus...that free's up about 8 million in cap space per year to play with.  That would pay for Patrice Bergeron, Carl Soderberg, Torey Krug and Matt Bartowski.

    I think those 5 guys would give the Washington Capitals more wins in 13/14  than current.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Don-Bruino's comment:

     

    It tells the total tale, my friend. All those big minuses are bad teams with no leadership.

    Washington, all minus players. Ovi biggest minus player of all. Ovi 50-goal scorer can't lead his team.

    When will Leonsis and McPhee wake up?

    Ovi couldn't lead a herd of sheep.



    Chara, Murray, Axelsson and Ward.  No leadership?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    Okay, so let's say they decide to make a change.

    What would that change be?

    It's the old, "If not, then who?"

    Name names.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to DrCC's comment:

    I've been trying to get at the details of how Ovechkin has so much worse a +/- that his teammates, and it is odd.  For instance, Backstrom is on the ice about 75% of the time that Ovechkin is, both 5v5 and 5v4.  He has one fewer short-handed goal against, 5 fewer 5v5 goals against and 3 more goals for.  That's a net of +9 better.  Yet he's only -17.  Where's the other -5 from?  EN goals against?  It kind of seems like Ovechkin must either be rolled out regularly with linemates who aren't his usual partners and don't cover for him adequately, or perhaps he's simply a first-on, last-off skater who is getting burned during the overlaps with other skaters.

    Ovechkin's also a whopping -9 against Columbus and -6 against the Flyers.  That's half his net minus, so there's a case to be made that it's largely those anomalies driving his bad +/-.

    In his defense, he has respectable details against the top 10 teams in the league: -8, but 8 powerplay points (so a net effect of 0 differential - and most of the negative of that coming in 2 games against Colorado).

    Perhaps more should be expected from a superstar, but for comparison's sake Crosby, Krejci, and Bergeron are all only +5 if you look at the numbers that way.  That's not much difference.



    Nice.  Seems to support the idea that the big issue with him is...commitment.  Testing himself against the best teams?  He's there.  Nap time vs. Columbus and Philly.  Or maybe against Columbus and Philly, as he was against the Laffs with a big lead, he's that much more inclined to fly the zone at the first opportunity because he's can pad stats and have a little fun tearing up Mason and Emery and Bobrovsky.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Okay, so let's say they decide to make a change.

    What would that change be?

    It's the old, "If not, then who?"

    Name names.

    Lies, da-n lies, statistics, ritualized chanting to Cthulu, and then plus/minus.

    Parameters for the question?  How would I spend the $10M or whatever his cap hit is to get more wins?  Or player for player, one for one swap, who would I rather have as first line RW if I was Washington and with that roster?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Okay, so let's say they decide to make a change.

    What would that change be?

    It's the old, "If not, then who?"

    Name names.

    Lies, da-n lies, statistics, ritualized chanting to Cthulu, and then plus/minus.

    Parameters for the question?  How would I spend the $10M or whatever his cap hit is to get more wins?  Or player for player, one for one swap, who would I rather have as first line RW if I was Washington and with that roster?




    Wants and needs are at the mercy of the market.

    It's not as simple as "trade him and they win".

    Trade him for whom?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

     


    Nice.  Seems to support the idea that the big issue with him is...commitment.  Testing himself against the best teams?  He's there.  Nap time vs. Columbus and Philly.  Or maybe against Columbus and Philly, as he was against the Laffs with a big lead, he's that much more inclined to fly the zone at the first opportunity because he's can pad stats and have a little fun tearing up Mason and Emery and Bobrovsky.



    ^But what possible difference does that make in the criticism?  

    The Caps have literally been battling vs. Philly and Columbus more directly for a playoff spot than just about anyone else.  Choosing nap time there is absurd -- actually worse for the team than nap time against Boston/Pittsburgh where the winners points don't really affect them at all.  

    I also wonder about the theory that his +/- gets worse when he's cherry picking.  I wonder if that's true.  I mean, he scores a lot when he's cherry picking.  Maybe his +/- is the worst when he comes back to play defense, but just does it poorly.  Then he limits his own scoring, and in doing so might not actually limit the other team at all.

    You could trade him for Sobotka...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

     

    You could trade him for Sobotka...



    AUTOCUP

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

     

     

    Trade him for whom?



    Straight up for Shea Weber.Nashville needs offence,Caps need defence,quandry solved,salary comparable.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

    ”Get rid of this guy (Ovi) before the draft or you are gone. At the same time get something going to get rid of Green. I don't want either one on my team or on my payroll next year."

     

    Sure if Leonsis wanted Capital attendance to plummet. Ted Leonsis does not want this. The defensively-responsible-hockey-fan-outside-the-beltway does not fill the Verizon Center.

    McPhee has failed miserably at getting a proper defensive core in Washington.



    .If Hunter had taken them up on their offer defensive hockey is what they would have gotten,5 players standing in front of the goalie. [/QUOTE]


    "Star goal scoring wingers can't be blowing their tank below the hash marks."

     

    ^This^ is not what I would want my 50 goal scorer doing. If the opposing defenseman sends a rocket past the Caps goalie and Ovechkin was below the hash marks chasing the puck, everyone would again say he blew his coverage by not harassing the defenseman up top.

    Ovechkin is in a no win situation with quite a few hockey fans. 5th time he will be a 50 goal scorer in this day n age of the NHL. But some want to talk about Ovechkin blowing his lunch down low blocking shots, to state he is now a complete player.

    What a joke.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    Why stray from the subjective, to the more subjective?  Breaking down statistical data too far can poison the intended premise.  Against "cleveland", Ovi can be plus4 and Bergeron, minus4.  It's great for arguments sake...and stats don't lie, but it's just an excercise in denial.

    Ovechkins overall "responsibility" rating has never been very good.  When you're the highest paid player in the league, there's a fair bit of expectation.  Now that they aren't playing in an AHL caliber division,  there's a good chance they'll miss the playoffs, and Ovi's international record, it's only reasonable to expect some second guessing.

    At almost 10 mil per year, Ovechkin shouldn't be team worst in anything.  Especially when the general consensus is that his supporting cast are dopes.

    It's Stanleyesque to discuss who they could trade him for.  The question is potential.  They need more than 1 piece, and most of their players will go for another comparable asset.  Ovechkin will bring several.

    The Bruins have made these tough decisions a few times in the last decade, and the results speak for themselves.

    I keep hearing PC's quote about Seguin(which I agree with).  "another" 30 goal guy.  Replace the 30, with 45, and you paint an accurate picture of Ovechkin.

    Great headline...but absolutely nothing more to the story.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

    Trade him for whom?



    Straight up for Shea Weber.Nashville needs offence,Caps need defence,quandry solved,salary comparable.



    Now Leonsis has the AUTOCUP

     

    Caps wish they could get Vald the Impaler!

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    Are steve and book related?   

    Ovie is a career + 51 including this yrs terrible +/- stat.   Ovie should take some heat over these numbers.  But i will take the goals over the +/- stat anyday.   

    Where were all you terds when i said ovie should be booed for hos efforts after the first few games of the olympics.   i think hes a terrible captain.  They should offer up a sweet bounty and attempt to get mike richards.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Ovechkin is a -31. Repeat -31!

    When it comes to Ovechkin, and I've said this before, I think the Caps have done a poor job of putting the right peices around him. How many coaches has he had? How many systems? Heck, Boudreau went from an open game to try and be a defensive team in attempt to save his job. Hunter, comes in mid season and goes extreme defense. Oates, back the other way.

    The worst part is his linemates. Most people look at he Caps roster, past and present and assume he plays with Backstom. Not that much.Mostly on the power play.  Last year, he was actually on a line with Joey Crabb and Jay Beagle as his center for some time. he's also had significant playing time with the likes of Chimera, Hendricks, Volpatti..If I'm Ovechkin, and those are my linemates, I'd say screw the breakout play as well and be off to the races.

    Alot of people are looking at his minus -31 and assume he's floating at the redline while Nicklas Backstrom and company are doing the dirty work down below. if you've watched any Caps games, not the case.

    Capitals have paid and are paying him a ton of money to score goals. They've done a very poor job of roster management. Mike Ribiero? Martin Erat? Ovechkin is the only reason why Caps are relevant.

     
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