Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Sabres Sign Reinhart to ELC-Raises the Question......

    As per TSN:


    BUFFALO - The Buffalo Sabres signed the second overall pick in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft, forward Sam Reinhart, to a three-year, entry-level contract on Saturday.


    Reinhart, who became the Sabres' highest draft pick since Pierre Turgeon was selected first overall in 1987, was selected from Kootenay of the Western Hockey League and was named the WHL 2013-14 Player of the Year and Most Sportsmanlike Player of the Year.


    The mention of Turgeon got me thinking. Historically, the odds of an 18 year old making a NHL roster was slim and based almost solely off the kid having an outstanding camp. Since the introduction of the cap this is becoming almost commonplace as teams are in constant search for cap room and cheap roster alternatives.


    So, are the emergence of 18 year olds making teams more of a money issue or are they truly ready? One example, it could be argued that Nugent-Hopkins could have stood to play another year of junior. His body was slight for his age and, sure enough, he now has perpetual shoulder problems due to an injury in his rookie season. How has this stunted his growth if at all?


    I am interested to hear some opinions on this.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    JM, I think it's also a case of franchises being keen on having a blitz on jersey sales as they try to market the next big thing. I agree the economics of a cap league is reason one as to why we're seeing so many kids on NHL rosters. I also think it's having a negative affect on the development of some players. I know I'm glad Hamilton went back for another season before making the jump.



    "wow,check out all of the losers in here......"

    -Gerry Dee
     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    I really don't think any team is going to jeopardize a high draft pick to sell some jerseys.  I think it's economics.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I really don't think any team is going to jeopardize a high draft pick to sell some jerseys.  I think it's economics.  

    [/QUOTE]


     And to me this is unfortunate. Short-sighted and robs some players of much needed development, both physically and psychologically. Not every 18 year old is a phenom and can play with grown men on a nightly basis.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    Theyre paying him, they stink, might as well have him play at the NHL level if they feel he is ready.




     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    As per TSN:

     

    BUFFALO - The Buffalo Sabres signed the second overall pick in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft, forward Sam Reinhart, to a three-year, entry-level contract on Saturday.

     

    Reinhart, who became the Sabres' highest draft pick since Pierre Turgeon was selected first overall in 1987, was selected from Kootenay of the Western Hockey League and was named the WHL 2013-14 Player of the Year and Most Sportsmanlike Player of the Year.

     

    The mention of Turgeon got me thinking. Historically, the odds of an 18 year old making a NHL roster was slim and based almost solely off the kid having an outstanding camp. Since the introduction of the cap this is becoming almost commonplace as teams are in constant search for cap room and cheap roster alternatives.

     

    So, are the emergence of 18 year olds making teams more of a money issue or are they truly ready? One example, it could be argued that Nugent-Hopkins could have stood to play another year of junior. His body was slight for his age and, sure enough, he now has perpetual shoulder problems due to an injury in his rookie season. How has this stunted his growth if at all?

     

    I am interested to hear some opinions on this.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think Nugent-Hopkins frame has much to do with his injuries or the fact that he came right in to the league. So did Hall and he had a rash of bad luck injuries.




     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I really don't think any team is going to jeopardize a high draft pick to sell some jerseys.  I think it's economics.  

    [/QUOTE]


    I was speaking figuratively there in a failed effort at describing a franchise's wanting to churn out the next big thing (player wise). People love to fawn over the next big teen star in every town. Some of them even buy jerseys. If a franchise is struggling at the box office, you can be sure they might have some extra motivation to rush a young kid onto their roster. I'm not saying it's a great idea but I think it happens.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I really don't think any team is going to jeopardize a high draft pick to sell some jerseys.  I think it's economics.  

    [/QUOTE]


    I was speaking figuratively there in a failed effort at describing a franchise's wanting to churn out the next big thing (player wise). People love to fawn over the next big teen star in every town. Some of them even buy jerseys. If a franchise is struggling at the box office, you can be sure they might have some extra motivation to rush a young kid onto their roster. I'm not saying it's a great idea but I think it happens.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry.  I didn't get the figurative side.  I thought the idea was a little far fetched coming from you!  (However, there are people that would believe it was to sell jerseys.)

    Anyone who drafts in the Top 5 is going to want that player in the lineup the following year.  I agree that sometimes it's an awful idea.  I was happy to see Tampa send Drouin back.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobruins. Show bobruins's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    As per TSN:

     

    BUFFALO - The Buffalo Sabres signed the second overall pick in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft, forward Sam Reinhart, to a three-year, entry-level contract on Saturday.

     

    Reinhart, who became the Sabres' highest draft pick since Pierre Turgeon was selected first overall in 1987, was selected from Kootenay of the Western Hockey League and was named the WHL 2013-14 Player of the Year and Most Sportsmanlike Player of the Year.

     

    The mention of Turgeon got me thinking. Historically, the odds of an 18 year old making a NHL roster was slim and based almost solely off the kid having an outstanding camp. Since the introduction of the cap this is becoming almost commonplace as teams are in constant search for cap room and cheap roster alternatives.

     

    So, are the emergence of 18 year olds making teams more of a money issue or are they truly ready? One example, it could be argued that Nugent-Hopkins could have stood to play another year of junior. His body was slight for his age and, sure enough, he now has perpetual shoulder problems due to an injury in his rookie season. How has this stunted his growth if at all?

     

    I am interested to hear some opinions on this.

    [/QUOTE]

    Edmonton did not need the cap space.........it is not the reason why RNH was playing in the NHL at 18yrs old

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BigBadnBruin. Show BigBadnBruin's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    Along with the cap, came a much more wide-open style of play that eliminated a lot of the clutching and grabbing that most 18 year olds were not strong enough to fight through.

    Nathan MacKinnon had a great season, but at 6' 180 lbs, it would have been a lot tougher to excel, if he was dealing with guys like Chara & Weber, if they were still allowed to grab him in a bear hug, and ride him like a pony.

    Seven of the guys drafted in the 1st round, were under 170 lbs, including the Bruins' pick. I have to wonder, if any of those guys would have been, even 2nd round picks, 15 years ago.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from goodnewsbears. Show goodnewsbears's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    I don't think it has to do with the cap.  Most 18 year olds play for teams that suck and have all kinds of cap room.

    -GNB, King Of The Forum

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    The 2004 draft is both 10 years ago and the last draft pre-lockout/Cap/new rules, so it's an interesting reference point.  In that year, I think there was precisely 1 player lighter than 190 lbs taken in the first round, and it was goalie Marek Schwartz.  There were about 5 players who weighed in in the 190s.  Everyone else was 200+ with Fistric getting the Fat award at 236.  I think Rob "Don't Call Me Detlef" Schremp was the only guy chosen in round one who was shorter than 6'.  Big caveat here - these are likely not accurate contemporary weights; that is, I couldn't find their weigh-ins from 2004.  Most of the info I could find from back then didn't include height and weight - you could just click through to the player page where you get a more recent measure.

    On the flip side, though, I would have a hard time remembering the last post-Cap draft that included a goon like Boris Valabik in the top 10.  In fact, the following couple of years, the biggest draft whiffs are (and this is ironic) big NCAA defenseman who, I'm guessing, were picked using old ways of thinking and didn't have the skills to adjust.  

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    Yeah, the more you think about it, the less likely it is to have anything to do with the cap.  In addition to the argument that if an 18 year old is going to make the jump in his first year, it's probably the team is awful and he's better than anyone else they have available, and that awful teams typically aren't paying a lot for an awful roster, there's:

    • EL deals don't kick in until a player plays professionally, so the Sabres could send Reinhart back to junior for another year and he'll still be just as cap friendly when they bring him in;
    • it isn't as much of a trend as we seem to be talking about - last year was unusual in having MacKinnon, Barkov, Jones, Lindholm, Monahan, and Nichushkin make the jump, but that group produced two 20 goal guys, Jones had a 25 point season on offensively inept Nashville, and Nichushkin had 34 points and started to look great in Dallas once he got his feet under him.  In 2012, only Yakupov and Galchenyuk went straight to the show, in 2011 it was RNH, Landeskog, Larsson and Couturier and both Landeskog and RNH hit 52 points on the year.  Larson and Couturier were both physically ready.  in 2010, it was Hall, Seguin, Skinner and Fowler.  Hard to argue any of them unless you rip Seguin ... though Fowler was awful defensively.  All told, the average is about 3-4 players making the jump, and it seems like at least 2 every year are making that jump on merit;
    • the assumption about hurting the player's development seems to go against the assumption many on here make when we talk about CHL vs AHL.  If playing pro in the AHL helps a guy who has "nothing left to prove" in junior hockey, wouldn't playing in the best league in the world also be better than sending a guy to junior?  As long as he plays, of course.  No one would argue that it hurts a kid's development to sit in the press box.  But playing and practising at the NHL level, and learning the habits and routines of pro?  What's wrong with that?
    • Sending a guy back to junior's also no guarantee of anything.  Huberdeau went back, then had a decent first year, then back-slid without a guy like Kovalev to play with him.

    I took a quick look at 10-12 years back, too, and we're talking a difference of maybe one or two extra guys making the jump.  Kovalchuk made the jump as a #1 pick; the next year, Nash and Bouwmeester did it; and the next year Fleury, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Dustin Brown and Bergeron all made the leap.  All when there was no Cap, so all without the motivation of saving space.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    All of these points make sense. Its just that I look at teams pre-cap, the power houses like Colorado, Detroit, NJ and wannabe teams like TO and Philly....how many 18 year olds did they have on their roster year in, year out?
    They were more likely to overpay a vet than take a chance on a kid. In the cap era, teams just can't do that anymore. Cheap ELC's are how many teams stay under the cap now.

    Sure, the top 3 on any draft may make it, and might be expected to, but after that is the real question.

    As Book and other point out, it may be all based on merit and it might have always been this way. I don't know.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    • the assumption about hurting the player's development seems to go against the assumption many on here make when we talk about CHL vs AHL.  If playing pro in the AHL helps a guy who has "nothing left to prove" in junior hockey, wouldn't playing in the best league in the world also be better than sending a guy to junior?  As long as he plays, of course.  No one would argue that it hurts a kid's development to sit in the press box.  But playing and practising at the NHL level, and learning the habits and routines of pro?  What's wrong with that?

    [/QUOTE]

    But Book, what about his feelings?  His confidence?  If a kid comes up and doesn't do well, he could really be mentally tarnished and his career would be ruined!

    Or, that's what some think.

    As for the Huberdeau part, LEAVE THE PANTHERS OUT OF THIS!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    Like the Bruins with Thornton and Kessel, as an example, the Sabres are starting from scratch after miserable failure trying to remedy the team with free agents. Reinart will look out of place or he won't.

    Throw the kid out there to let him see the speed of the NHL and see how he absorbs the hitting. If he looks like he has a seen a ghost, white as a sheet after 10 games send the kid down to the CHL.

    Buffalo are going to play there kids they have no choice. 

     

    Playoffs: Reilly Smith > Tyler Seguin

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Leave the Panthers out of it?  You know Dale Tallon would go straight to the parents of some kid dominating in minor hockey in Toronto and say look, your kid is going to be eligible to be drafted in 6 to 8 years, and frankly, under my watch, we're likely to have the first pick in that draft, so why don't we all just skip the previews and have your boy suit up for the Panthers this year?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    All of these points make sense. Its just that I look at teams pre-cap, the power houses like Colorado, Detroit, NJ and wannabe teams like TO and Philly....how many 18 year olds did they have on their roster year in, year out?
    They were more likely to overpay a vet than take a chance on a kid. In the cap era, teams just can't do that anymore. Cheap ELC's are how many teams stay under the cap now.

    Sure, the top 3 on any draft may make it, and might be expected to, but after that is the real question.

    As Book and other point out, it may be all based on merit and it might have always been this way. I don't know.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Re: Colorado, Detroit, NJ - hard to say that was a philosophy or the result of drafting at the bottom of the draft every year.  If you look at Detroit, they went through a draft drought for a few years in the middle of their heyday, but it was almost a trademark of their team that they drafted and developed a lot of the core guys.  They almost all were in Detroit two years after their draft year.  That is consistent enough to be an organizational philosophy. Colorado also had some uninspiring drafts when they were at their peak, but they still moved guys like Deadmarsh and Tanguay into the lineup after just a year.  NJ has probably the best example of what you're talking about in Neidermeyer (the Kessel deal of 20 years ago was the Kurvers deal that send NJ Toronto's first round pick - 3rd overall).  He was in the lineup a year after he was drafted.  Sykora made the jump right away.  Gomez took a last year of junior.... 

    I think it's just perception that these teams were ignoring the prospects and signing the veterans.  Or, rather, I think it's true that they signed a lot of veterans, and they probably couldn't in a Cap world (esp. Colorado with Sakic making $10M per after that NYR offer sheet) but I don't think it has any bearing on how often or how quickly teams drafting later managed to bring their rookies into the lineup.

    [object HTMLDivElement]

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Sabres Sign Reinhart to EL-Raises the Question......

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think it's just perception that these teams were ignoring the prospects and signing the veterans.  Or, rather, I think it's true that they signed a lot of veterans, and they probably couldn't in a Cap world (esp. Colorado with Sakic making $10M per after that NYR offer sheet) but I don't think it has any bearing on how often or how quickly teams drafting later managed to bring their rookies into the lineup.

    [/QUOTE]

    Fair point.

     

     

     
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