Savard Cap Impact Question?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    In Response to Savard Cap Impact Question?:
    [QUOTE]Any reason why the Bruins didn't immediately place Savard on LTIR?  Seems like a safe bet that he will miss enough time to justify LTIR, what is the upside of not doing so? 
    Posted by Crowls2424[/QUOTE]
    Makes you wonder if the injury is as serious as we all suspect.If he was going to be out at least a month it's hard to figure why they wouldn't immediately place him on LTIR.It makes me wonder if they aren't holding out hope that he'll only miss as much time as Krejci did with his concussion.It's highly unlikely I know but maybe......
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    I am probably not appropriately up to speed on all things Cap, but it seems like every day he spends on the "regular" payroll, it impedes PC's ability to flex the roster. 

    I am sure that I am missing something procedural or in policy, where is DrCC when you need him?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    To go on the LTIR a player must be unavailable for at least 24 days and 10 NHL games to be deemed LTIR. I really hope he's not LTIR. He was starting to play his game again.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    I am not a doctor, but it seems like a slam dunk that he will not be back in 10 games/ 24 days.  Even if you think he would make it back by the playoffs, isn't in the B's interest to "bank" his salary/time on LTIR?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    Putting a Player on LTIR does not save any cap room, it allows you to go over the cap by the amount of the players salary.  The reason Savard in not on LTIR is it has not been determined that he will be out 24 days or 10 games and there is no benefit gained by it. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    I get that OTB, but wouldn't the amount you are allowed to go over the cap be impacted by the timing of when a player is placed on LTIR?  Kind of "the sooner the better", assuming there is a daily mil rate for a player's salary.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoubleMinor. Show DoubleMinor's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    I believe you can place a player on IR retroactive to the date of injury, though I am no expert.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    In Response to Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?:
    [QUOTE]I get that OTB, but wouldn't the amount you are allowed to go over the cap be impacted by the timing of when a player is placed on LTIR?  Kind of "the sooner the better", assuming there is a daily mil rate for a player's salary.
    Posted by Crowls2424[/QUOTE]


    I will try to do my best to explain it.  Savards cap hit $4,007,143 still counts against the cap even while he is on LTIR.  The Cap still remains at 59.4 Million but if Savard was on LTIR the Bruins would be able to spend to 59.4 +$4,007,143.  Any cap overage duing this period goes into a seperate catagory as LTIR cap overage and at the end of the year you are allowed to be over the cap by the amount of your LTIR overage.  The problem being anytime you are exceeding the cap you daily calculation is above the cap and you only get credited for the amount you are over the cap.  You are running at the cap max.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    Hockey 101: Long Term Injury Reserve (LTIR)

    When you search "NHL CBA" in Google Images, this picture of Glen Sather pops up second. That is ten kinds of awesome.

     

    When you search "NHL CBA" in Google Images, this picture of Glen Sather pops up second. That is ten kinds of awesome.

     

    Hockey 101 will be an ongoing feature throughout the season where Plank looks at aspects of the NHL that are receiving a lot of questions in the comments section of Fear The Fin. Today's lesson will be on the Long Term Injured Reserve.

    LTIR has always been a difficult aspect of the CBA to pin down-- there's a lot of misinformation out there on the subject, and the actual enforcement of the rule runs counter-intuitive to how one would expect it to be implemented. Of course everyone realizes that the LTIR is reserved for players who have been hit with some form of long-term injury or another, but how does it effect everything else on the roster? Can players be promoted? What about the cap hit? What happens to his salary?

    It's no surprise there's some confusion out there.

    Today we'll try to change all that, as well as give all of us a handy place to refer back to if the question ever pops up again.

    Let's start with the relevant section of the CBA, Article 50.10. It breaks down the process a team needs to go through in order to put a player on the Long Term Injured Reserve:

    (d) Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below.

    In order to qualify for placement on the Long Term Injured Reserve (henceforth referred to as the LTIR), a player must be deemed to be unavailable for 24 days and 10 NHL games. If that is satisfied, a player can be placed on the LTIR.

    So what happens then? How does it effect the cap space a team has to fill their roster?

    (ii) The Player Salary and Bonuses of the Player that has been deemed unfit-to-play shall continue to be counted toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary as well as count against the Players' Share during the League Year in which the Player is deemed unfit-to-play (including during the period such unfit-to-play Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league);

    This means that a player on LTIR doesn't really "come off the books"-- as we'll see later, all it does is grant the team a bit of leeway when promoting players to fill the roster spot vacated by the injured player. He still counts against the year end cap when he is on the LTIR, and doesn't allow the team to gain salary cap space the way sending a player down to the minor league affiliate would. This is a very important note, and where some individuals begin to become confused.

    Think of it this way-- everyone remembers the Worcester Shuttle from last season, where San Jose would send down players on an almost daily basis to their minor league affiliate in order to create cap space. LTIR is not like that at all. It does not create cap space in respect to the year-end cap.

    So what does it do? Why would teams utilize this tool?

    Star-divide

    (iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club.

    Essentially, this allows a team to replace the player on LTIR with any number of other players in order to fill the roster hole. The wording in this passage is quite verbose and involved, so a quick and dirty example should serve our purposes fine:

    FTF Example: The salary cap Upper Limit is $60.0MM, and a team currently has a 20 man roster of $59.0MM. There is $1.0MM in cap room available to them. In the first day of the regular season, a player making $2.0MM is hit along the boards, injured, and subsequently placed on LTIR. The team now has that $2.0MM to use in order to bring in replacement player(s) to fill the hole left by that $2.0MM player-- that number is equal to the injured player's salary. They are able to spend up to $61.0MM (or, $1.0MM over the cap) to replace that player.

    This is because, at the time of injury, the team had $1.0MM in cap space available to them. Since the injured player on LTIR had a salary of $2.0MM, $1.0MM of that goes towards getting the team to the Upper Limit of that year (which is $60.0MM), and then the remaining $1.0MM is used to allow the team to temporarily exceed the Upper Limit until the player on LTIR is able to return.

    Think of it this way-- a $2.0MM player was injured on a team that had $1.0MM in cap room. The cap hit of the injured player ($2.0MM) minus the amount of salary cap space ($1.0MM) equals the amount that team can exceed the upper limit by ($1.0MM).

    So now let's take the two ideas together-- since the player on LTIR counts against the year-end cap, but the team is allowed to exceed the Upper Limit, couldn't that pose some issues for teams who are close to the Upper Limit already?

    Yes, yes, and most definitely yes. In this example, we'll look at what would happen if a capped team was forced to place a player on the LTIR:

    FTF Example Two: The salary cap Upper Limit is $60.0MM, and a team currently has a 20 man roster of $60.0MM. Right at the limit, absolutely no breathing room. In the first day of the regular season, a player making $2.0MM is hit along the boards, injured, and subsequently placed on LTIR. Using the formula in the last paragraph of example one, we know that the team now has $2.0MM to use to exceed the Upper Limit and bring up players.

    However, as we've learned, the player on LTIR still counts against the team's year end cap when he's injured. By promoting a player, they will be over the year end cap and not compliant with the CBA. So what gives? Essentially, if this situation were to occur, a team would have to trade a player right before the injured player returns in order to become salary cap compliant.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tom857. Show Tom857's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    Essentially, let's say with Savard healthy we were $1M under the cap. We're banking at a rate of $1M cap space.
    Savard gets hurt, and there's no replacement: you put him on LTIR and an insurance agency pays his salary, but he's unavailable for at least 10 games/24 days... you still only bank as if you had $1M of cap space.
    Savard gets hurt, you put him on LTIR, and you replace him with a $4M player: You are now $3M OVER the cap... which is allowed because of the LTIR, but you aren't banking ANY cap space... and when Savard comes back, you must shed the $3M immediately to be at least cap compliant... the only people they could "add" and then get rid of if/when Savvy comes back this year are people from Providence... but adding them means they AREN'T banking the small amount they currently are now. In effect, by putting Savvy on LTIR adding someone like Caron to the roster, they reduce the amount they would be able to spend later on a deadline-deal player.
    As such, unless the team were experiencing a dramatic dip in play and they felt there was a serious impact player in Providence who could stop them from slipping, there's no benefit to calling someone up. So long as the team keeps playing relatively consistenty, their best bet is to wait until they're passing the 10/24 mark, then put Marc on RETROACTIVELY to make an insurance company pay his salary instead, and NOT add a player... if he's ready BEFORE that time, then you put him back in the lineup and all is good and well again.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    Tommy, Orr,
    good analysis, we dont "save" any money moving savard to LTIR, but beyond that, We move savard, we bring in a player like in tommy's example, when savard returns we have to jetison a guy back to the AHL.. If this is prior to the trade deadline that he can return we are back in the sturm scenario, if we are after that, we have to send someone to providence who probably doesnt belong there..

    The bruins probably would rather not give up assets for a month or two rental that forces their hand down the road, they have 12 forwards on the roster currently and some guys to look at in providence...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from sgebhardt8. Show sgebhardt8's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that once the playoffs start, the salary cap is moot.  So you could add a player, and have Savard come back for the playoffs if he was ready.  I could be wrong on this but that was my impression.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tom857. Show Tom857's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    That's true... but Savard could be back before the playoffs.
    Bergeron suffered a major concussion, came back, had another more mild concussion, and came back within a month or so.
    Krejci had a "moderate concussion" this year and came back within about 2 weeks.
    Savard's second concussion was deemed a "moderate concussion," too.
    They're different for everyone, but I think the team is optimistic that he'll be back sooner than some people think.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?


    My theory.  They can't do anything with the cap space cleared by LTIR right now anyway as I don't think there is anyone that they can sign or bring up that would put them in cap trouble.  If there was a deal on the table, then they might be interested in doing that, but I don't think anything will come up because I don't see how the Brins can get anyone decent without selling the farm.

    And the other equally important part to this is that they want to treat Savard well and not pressure him as the LTIR isn't going to do them that much good - if any good at all.  Being "nice and understanding" to Savard may not be simply altruistic, it sends a message to the other players in the league that the management in Boston isn't the Sinden hard line kind of place anymore and that management will try to accommodate players if they can.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    In Response to Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?:
    [QUOTE]That's true... but Savard could be back before the playoffs. Bergeron suffered a major concussion, came back, had another more mild concussion, and came back within a month or so. Krejci had a "moderate concussion" this year and came back within about 2 weeks. Savard's second concussion was deemed a "moderate concussion," too. They're different for everyone, but I think the team is optimistic that he'll be back sooner than some people think.
    Posted by Tommy617[/QUOTE]

    True, but Savard's "moderate" concussion came less than a year after a grade 2.  I think the best action for all involved is to place Savard on LTIR for the remainder of the season (2.5mo) to be on the safe side, then trade for another 4M (or whatever fits under the cap) player at the deadline.  Then, if Savard has been cleared, bring him back for the playoffs, when the cap doesn't matter.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    shut savvy down for the year, he has already priven it's going to take a while to get back to speed even after being cleared. so he makes it back in a month, can you really count on him to find his game before playoffs start? the b's don't need to have a guy feeling his way back DURING a playoff push. get some body in to start skating with the team and settle in before april, let savvy start a fresh start next fall. for HIS health and that of the TEAM. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Savard Cap Impact Question?

    As much as I would like to see Savvy come back ala Kreji, let's plan an alterrnative. Bring up Zach Hamill from Providence. Hamill is experienced at center and has been improving each year in Providence. Some say he is soft, but what is that opinion based on? Some say he lacks defensive skills. Didn't look that way last year, so what's the basis for the knock. They are developing Caron and he has had Hamill as his center so he can improve. He is not robust, but if he is as smart as originally expected, so what? He will fit under the Cap, and if he has problems centering Ryder and Horton the B's can shift to Wheeler or Seguin. This still leaves the bruins with Kreji, Bergeron and Campbell's lines intact. As an aside it also tells Savard that they are not "REPLACING" him which can be a boost to his handling of the Concussion impacts.
     

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