Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    This summer the Bruins dealt Seguin in a controversal trade.  I didn't like it and still don't, though I have a large amount of faith in the Bruins management to make good decisions.  I also acknowledge that I had an emotional attachment to my favorite Bruin and had hoped to see his career explode with my favorite team.  Further details such as the off ice issues of Seguin and the potential talent of Smith make the trade seem less awful, but it's still a controversal topic for me.

    I thought it would be interesting to follow the players playing this year over the course of the season in an attempt to evaluate aspects of the trade.  Of course there are other factors, such as the signing of Ignla, the cap, the two other prospects the Bruins received, team chemistry, all-around game of all players and so forth, and we can discuss them here, but I'm mainly focusing on Seguin, Peverley, Eriksson and Smith.  As an initial look at what's happening so far, some stats:

                  GP G A Pts      ATOI   P/G     P/Min         Cap Hit $/Pts

    Seguin    5 2 5 7        18:23   1.4     0.076378    5.75       0.821429

    Peverley   4 1 1 2     18:00     0.5     0.027778    3.25       1.625

    Total:      9 3 6 9                       1        0.054995     9           1                    

    Eriksson  5 2 0 2          16:56   0.4     0.023529   4.25        2.125

    Smith      5 0 3 3           12:39  0.6     0.047619     0.9        0.3

    Total:   10 2 3 5                        0.5     0.033784   5.15       1.03

    I'll update those stats later.  The initial look through 5 games has this as a bad trade on all points except (obviously) cap hit.  The worst aspect for me is actually dollar per point, where the Bruins are spending $1.03 of cap hit for every point they get out of their new duo while Dallas are squeezing a piont out of ever $1.0 million from their pricier pair.  I would like to think this is the part of the trade the Bruins win, but not so far.  The lone shining light so far for Boston is Smith, who is providing great bang for his 900k buck and great production per minute  of ice time.  Eriksson is producing well below career norms so far so we should expect something better as the year progresses, turning the trade more statistically in favour of Boston.

    What are your thoughts?  Personally I'm really liking Smith.  He actually reminds me a lot of Seguin, with less speed and a worse shot, but with more grit and possibly a bit more smarts and compete.  Kind of a Seguin/Krejci blend, though it is most likely a huge stretch to think he will ever produce like either of them.  I like Eriksson as well.  The real challenge is can they possibly recover what was lost in Seguin if he reaches his potential and scores 90+ pts with only 18minutes per game of ice time and a cap hit of "only" 5.75 million, which would be great for a high-end scorer.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    Good luck to Seguin.  May his potential outweigh his partying.  Good luck to Peverly.  May he show the world he's more than a third line player.

    Thanks for the top notch goal scorer.  Enjoy the baggage in return!

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree, and comparing stats in particular is always going to be dubious.  Seguin is on the top line in Dallas and top PP unit.  He was typically on the 2nd or 3rd line here.  Peverly is on the top line in Dallas.  He was on the 3rd line here, in a checking/penalty kill role.

    If both Seguin and Peverly don't significantly boost their point totals than this trade is bad news for Dallas.  

    As for the Bruins, there are so many variables.  I agree that Eriksson has to score and be a pretty good player for the Bruins.  But you've got to look at cap space, cheap-talent in Smith, prospects in Providence, a piece of Iginla (see cap space), team chemistry, ability to sign other key players, and of course, the playoffs.  It's gonna be a hard one to compare, and it'll take some years to get a clearer picture.

    And of course, there is the possibility that comparing which side 'wins' is complete folly, as the trade could benefit both teams at the same time.  These two teams needed different things.  Maybe they both got them.  Maybe there doesn't have to be a 'loser'.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    My thinking so far is "what position" and TOI in the comparisons. Tyler is a #1 center and should be just not in Boston. Eriksson is a winger on the 2nd line where he is playing with two players who are not playing up to their potential.

    Then throw in the TOI and where does the bang for buck end up ?

    Defensively Seguin and Peverly will never get benched for a "YaPukEov attitude" (so to speak). The Stars need Seguin and his explosiveness. How bad is Dallas that they have Rich Peverley on their 2nd line ? wait I think Rich would be on Florida's #2 line as well. Tongue Out

    So far the TOI and linemates, who are playing well, are winning in my view. This will change once Bergeron and Marchand get p00p out of their hockey pants.

     

    PS. "Thank you Tyler for taking Rich with you" LoL

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    If Seguin scores 100 points, Eriksson and Smith bomb, Iginla is weak and the Bruins don't win another cup for the next 10 years due to a lack of skilled offence, you will compare the players that could have been here.  Or at least you should.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying that's going to happen, I'm just discussing it.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    If Seguin scores 100 points, Eriksson and Smith bomb, Iginla is weak and the Bruins don't win another cup for the next 10 years due to a lack of skilled offence, you will compare the players that could have been here.  Or at least you should.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying that's going to happen, I'm just discussing it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Why be caught up in theoreticals that could/couldnt happen when we get the pleasure of watching a good hockey team?

    Watch the games. Have fun.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith


    In my opinion, the only negative here is speed, or lack of it. Seguin and Peverley had it....Eriksson/Smith/Iginla don't. B's are looking really slow this year in my eyes.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree, and comparing stats in particular is always going to be dubious.  Seguin is on the top line in Dallas and top PP unit.  He was typically on the 2nd or 3rd line here.  Peverly is on the top line in Dallas.  He was on the 3rd line here, in a checking/penalty kill role.

    If both Seguin and Peverly don't significantly boost their point totals than this trade is bad news for Dallas.  

    As for the Bruins, there are so many variables.  I agree that Eriksson has to score and be a pretty good player for the Bruins.  But you've got to look at cap space, cheap-talent in Smith, prospects in Providence, a piece of Iginla (see cap space), team chemistry, ability to sign other key players, and of course, the playoffs.  It's gonna be a hard one to compare, and it'll take some years to get a clearer picture.

    And of course, there is the possibility that comparing which side 'wins' is complete folly, as the trade could benefit both teams at the same time.  These two teams needed different things.  Maybe they both got them.  Maybe there doesn't have to be a 'loser'.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not really looking to call a winner between Boston and Dallas, and you're right they could both win.  I'm looking at whether this was a win for Boston in terms of did it make the team better.  The early return is poor through 5 games, with Seguin scoring more than Eriksson, Smith (and Iginla) combined while using only one roster spot and costing much less.

    I think there is potential for it to turn around in a hurry if Eriksson and Iginla start scoring - which I think they will.  If Smith builds on the very fine early potential he's shown, the trade could begin to look like a very good move for the Bruins as cheap, low-minute 3rd line talent can mean as much to a cup winner as 1st line big-money players.  See Peverly, Seguin in '11.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to DaveyN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    If Seguin scores 100 points, Eriksson and Smith bomb, Iginla is weak and the Bruins don't win another cup for the next 10 years due to a lack of skilled offence, you will compare the players that could have been here.  Or at least you should.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying that's going to happen, I'm just discussing it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Why be caught up in theoreticals that could/couldnt happen when we get the pleasure of watching a good hockey team?

    Watch the games. Have fun.

    [/QUOTE]


    There's no games on right now.  I checked.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to jmwalters' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In my opinion, the only negative here is speed, or lack of it. Seguin and Peverley had it....Eriksson/Smith/Iginla don't. B's are looking really slow this year in my eyes.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I would say they are slower, but not slow.  I find all of the new guys have good speed just not great speed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    Speed will pick up with more PT with linemates, too. Once the thinking stops and it becomes more instinctive, the tempo will pick up.

    But I'm with hang on this one. Every sports team ever has proven that talent alone doesn't win you a Championship. Comparing apples to apples doesn't work. It has to be the right mix.

    I was fine with the old mix (Seguin, Peverly), as it made them a viable contender in every recent year. I'm also good with the current team, as you have to look far and wide for anyone to think they're not contenders again.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hangnail's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've stopped comparing individual players.  Playoff success is all that matters to me. If Seguin scores 100 points, and the B's win another Cup, I'm good.

    [/QUOTE]

    If Seguin scores 100 points, Eriksson and Smith bomb, Iginla is weak and the Bruins don't win another cup for the next 10 years due to a lack of skilled offence, you will compare the players that could have been here.  Or at least you should.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying that's going to happen, I'm just discussing it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I just don't think that players who aren't here matter.  PC and Neely seem to have a very specific type of player that they want on the roster.  Seguin didn't fit so they moved him.  If down the road PC feels they can't win because of "a lack of skilled offense", then it's his job to go out and get someone who can fill the void.  That's not happening on October 16, five games in though.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 4Ever. Show 4Ever's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    I agree hangnail.  If the B's win another cup before the big man is done and this core is still together, than the trade is a success.  They clearly gave up the best player, this is about winning soon.  This management and coach have earned my trust at this point.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    Here are the important stats:

    Boston 3-2-0 for 6 pts  F- 12 A- 8   5th Place in Atlantic

    Dallas  2-3-0 for 4 pts   F-11 A-14   Last in Central

     

    Looks like Boston is off to a better start. They will finish better, too. And Dallas, they can watch the Bruins in the playoffs.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bgrif008. Show bgrif008's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    Regular season, is just that...the regular season. Doesnt mean jack squat. Seguin will always put up numbers, no doubt about that, but he is Puss. And when it comes to playoffs, the last person you need on your team is one who wont grit out the puck and dig for it. He avoids contact like the plague. And when he appeared to actually make physical contact, he was acting, just to make management look like he was trying to make contact. Everyone gets so caught up with the numbers game. Its about wins and losses. All we have to hope for is that we make the playoffs and enough players show up to get us the win. And that includes the playoffs.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheGuyWithDaThing. Show TheGuyWithDaThing's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    To be fair, Dallas wasn't winning last year either. So you can't suggest that Eriksson was their saviour, and that they've falled off a cliff since he left.

    Eriksson is going to be a better fit for the Bruins, as long as he plays the same way he played in Dallas. However, one thing I'm concerned about is if he got too comfortable in the small (hockey) market down there, where fans aren't quite as rabid, and the pressure isn't quite as high. That worries the crap out of me, because some players s*** down their legs, and don't have an answer for the big stage.

    I don't understand the knocking on Peverley. He had a tough (shortened) season last year, but he is a very, very good 3rd liner just about every other year. In 2011-2012, he had 42 points in 57 games. Everyone realizes that if he was able to sustain that pace over a full season, that he would have been second to only Seguin in points, right? I'm not saying he didn't suck last year, because he did. But when he plays his game and plays it well, he's a very good player.

    I like this trade overall. I think Boston got a couple of guys who fit their mold for what they want (a couple of two-way forwards), and a few prospects who maybe provide a little something different with Fraser appearing to be a goal scorer, and Morrow being a puck-carrier (yeah I know....they've changed that). I'm excited to see how this season unfolds, because on paper, this team is better than it was last year.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to 4Ever's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I agree hangnail.  If the B's win another cup before the big man is done and this core is still together, than the trade is a success.  They clearly gave up the best player, this is about winning soon.  This management and coach have earned my trust at this point.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's not necessarily true.  It's quite possible that the team would have been even better not making the trade and won the cup again and still have one of the best young players in the league.  Of course keeping Seguin may have been a team chemistry disaster regardless of how well he plays and there are many things that we don't/will never know.  My point is that win cup =/= mean good decision.  The Bruins drafted Zach Hammil and won the cup.  Obviously drafting Hammil was a good decision.

    I do agree that the Bruins management has earned my trust, however.  I also think Eriksson, Smith and Iginla are going to pick it up and start outscoring Seguin and Peverly.  Also, I really want Boston to prove me wrong and win me over on this trade.  It's getting there, but not there yet.  I really like this current squad as put together, but I need to see a bit more.  I felt somewhat similar on the Kessel trade, but in heindsight that is perhaps the best trade in Bruins history.

    For me Smith is the key to this trade.  If he can be a 40+ point guy, the trade begins to look good for Boston.  If he becomes a 50 or 60+ point guy, it was clearly a brilliant move.  Straight up Eriksson for Seguin is just bad from any angle, and I like Eriksson.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from gord11. Show gord11's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    It might be an issue of how these guys are being employed. Eriksson has talked a few times about trying to learn some new way of playing, he is being asked (by Julien) to do something quite different than he's used to - a Julien trademark. (see: that nice bit of over-coaching Tortarella did last year, convincing Brad Richards that he didn't remember how to play hockey anymore)

    Already, things are starting to look a little 'back to the future' around here. 'The Top Line' and 'The Merlot Line' - no matter how many mistakes they make or chances they miss - are considered untouchable. Claude is then left to rearrange the deck chairs on the #2 and #3 lines, already looking a bit of a hodge-podge of too many guys with more 'try' than finish. 

    Smith is now on the 2nd Line with Bergeron and Eriksson, while Caron plays with Kelly and Marchand. Hmm.

    C'mon Claude, swap out Eriksson and Iginla. Put Marchand back with Bergeron, put Smith back with Kelly

    And while you're at it; with an eye to Soderberg and/or Spooner, figure out how many 'Try Guys' you need (ie. Caron and Thornton.)

    And while you're at it, get Dougie Hamilton out of the Press Box. I think he's learned enough about how not to be super-slow, watching Dennis Seidenberg. Claude should be fast-tracking this kid's development not parking it. He needs the reps. (If Seth Jones can play 25 minutes a game, so can Dougie Hamilton)

     

     

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    The real point is TEAM. Do the players improve the team. Obviously Dallas is better, while the changes in Boston are still wait and see.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hangnail. Show hangnail's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to bogie6's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The real point is TEAM. Do the players improve the team. Obviously Dallas is better, while the changes in Boston are still wait and see.

    [/QUOTE]

    Why do you think Dallas is better?  Why aren't they" wait and see" too?  What if they don't make the playoffs again?  Do you think they're fans will be happier not making the playoffs this year than they were last year?  

    You might as well go back to your Claude bashing because this post is pure junk.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from riptide757. Show riptide757's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This summer the Bruins dealt Seguin in a controversal trade.  I didn't like it and still don't, though I have a large amount of faith in the Bruins management to make good decisions.  I also acknowledge that I had an emotional attachment to my favorite Bruin and had hoped to see his career explode with my favorite team.  Further details such as the off ice issues of Seguin and the potential talent of Smith make the trade seem less awful, but it's still a controversal topic for me.

    I thought it would be interesting to follow the players playing this year over the course of the season in an attempt to evaluate aspects of the trade.  Of course there are other factors, such as the signing of Ignla, the cap, the two other prospects the Bruins received, team chemistry, all-around game of all players and so forth, and we can discuss them here, but I'm mainly focusing on Seguin, Peverley, Eriksson and Smith.  As an initial look at what's happening so far, some stats:

                  GP G A Pts      ATOI   P/G     P/Min         Cap Hit $/Pts

    Seguin    5 2 5 7        18:23   1.4     0.076378    5.75       0.821429

    Peverley   4 1 1 2     18:00     0.5     0.027778    3.25       1.625

    Total:      9 3 6 9                       1        0.054995     9           1                    

    Eriksson  5 2 0 2          16:56   0.4     0.023529   4.25        2.125

    Smith      5 0 3 3           12:39  0.6     0.047619     0.9        0.3

    Total:   10 2 3 5                        0.5     0.033784   5.15       1.03

    I'll update those stats later.  The initial look through 5 games has this as a bad trade on all points except (obviously) cap hit.  The worst aspect for me is actually dollar per point, where the Bruins are spending $1.03 of cap hit for every point they get out of their new duo while Dallas are squeezing a piont out of ever $1.0 million from their pricier pair.  I would like to think this is the part of the trade the Bruins win, but not so far.  The lone shining light so far for Boston is Smith, who is providing great bang for his 900k buck and great production per minute  of ice time.  Eriksson is producing well below career norms so far so we should expect something better as the year progresses, turning the trade more statistically in favour of Boston.

    What are your thoughts?  Personally I'm really liking Smith.  He actually reminds me a lot of Seguin, with less speed and a worse shot, but with more grit and possibly a bit more smarts and compete.  Kind of a Seguin/Krejci blend, though it is most likely a huge stretch to think he will ever produce like either of them.  I like Eriksson as well.  The real challenge is can they possibly recover what was lost in Seguin if he reaches his potential and scores 90+ pts with only 18minutes per game of ice time and a cap hit of "only" 5.75 million, which would be great for a high-end scorer.

    [/QUOTE]

    Your forgetting Seguin and Peverley's chiity play probably cost the Bruins a stanley cup. your initial look is an over statement 5 games into a regular season and wayyyy premature. lets wait to all is said and done.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    In response to bogie6's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The real point is TEAM. Do the players improve the team. Obviously Dallas is better, while the changes in Boston are still wait and see.

    [/QUOTE]

    Note sure about this either.  I went to the Dallas game Tuesday night and I don't think they're a playoff team.  Eriksson was probably their best player last year, along with Whitney and Benn.  Whitney looks awfully old to me.  Benn is streaky.  Eriksson is gone.

    Suddenly Peverly is on the top line, the blueline is thin, and they better hope they continue to get good things from Alex Chiasson, because all of their other top AHL prospects are in Boston/Providence.

    I think Seguin was a great find for them.  I'm not sure if the team is actually any better this year.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Seguin/Peverley vs Eriksson/Smith

    Not having watched Dallas my perspective came from written reports. Having watched the bruins I, along with others have noticed Eriksson's slow start, which could be because Marchand has also been slow to get it going. Rielly Smith has been very good in helping Kelly's line, with my old, now reenergized solid performer,  Caron showing what we applauded two years ago. Be that as it may, my point was that the team results are more indicative than individual performances. We have a long way to go before anyone can be lauded as improving the team.

     
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