Souray vs Wiz

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : You fail to mention that Souray is on a much better team. Wiz just came back from suspension and Carter hasn't been present.  Columbus has no PP and Dallas has been pretty good. Easy for your Souray express and such.Posted by BsLegion


    Shup doesn't understand the same amount of games nor does he comprehend that Wiz pulled within half of Sheldon's point totals while having played half the games (nothing to do with the suspension or Carter being out).

    I never expected Souray to slow down because he has talent. Funny though when Wiz had 4 points in 2 games the week before their was silence. It's a long season and this will be fun to let play out.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    BsL, Coming into the year was Souray supposed to be on the better team.  suspension means nothing.  Stay with the argument. 1. Souray with out pt Wiz if healthy 2. Souray if healthy is come back player of the year. You guys keep twisting it.  I'm having fun with this.  No different than the Torres debate.  Who thought Souray would return to his former self?  Dez gets credit b/c I believe he said it was a good pickup.  ADK- I lose a lot of arguments on here and take my medicine and usually admit it(do you?).Love talking hockey 1st.  This is in fun.  I am competitive by nature.  Anything wrong with that?  To be honest I didnt think Souray would be a 20 minute dman and be 3rd in dmen scoring.  He is making me look good for starting a thread about him. 
    Posted by shuperman


    Don't get upset .  All I'm trying to justify is why Souray right now is having a better start than Wiz.  Not trying to twist what you're saying.
    Don't get me wrong, I like Souray believe me.
     
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    I think I know exactly what adk is getting at.  It seemed to be stressed at the beginning of this thread that this was a full season prediction, that would exclude things like injuries, suspensions, etc. So, the updates every two games, to point out who was right and who was wrong are puzzling, you know, being 10 games into the season and all. If the season ends the same way it has been going, I'll be the first the say shupe was right, I was wrong.  It's looking good for him so far.  Until then, just talking hockey might be more fun than publically declaring victory over and over.  It's the hockey talk people enjoy, not so much the personal accolades of individual posters.
    Posted by Fletcher1


    Thing you are forgetting is like with Torres this is meant in fun.  And its a different conversation than with Marchand or Thornton threads.  This is in fun.  And like Tim Brent was in fun and like the ribbings I took with Torres.  Its in fun.  Relax.  I dont care if I win.  Because what does that even mean.  That I am grand puba on here for a day.  Wow, I hope thats not the legacy I leave this earth with. 

     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    BsL, Coming into the year was Souray supposed to be on the better team.  suspension means nothing.  Stay with the argument. 1. Souray with out pt Wiz if healthy 2. Souray if healthy is come back player of the year. You guys keep twisting it.  I'm having fun with this.  No different than the Torres debate.  Who thought Souray would return to his former self?  Dez gets credit b/c I believe he said it was a good pickup.  ADK- I lose a lot of arguments on here and take my medicine and usually admit it(do you?).Love talking hockey 1st.  This is in fun.  I am competitive by nature.  Anything wrong with that?  To be honest I didnt think Souray would be a 20 minute dman and be 3rd in dmen scoring.  He is making me look good for starting a thread about him. 
    Posted by shuperman


    Am entering this discussion late and haven't taken the time to read every comment, so please forgive if I'm repeating points that have already been made.   A couple of things:

    1) - When I saw Souray skate for Hershey last year, he was stunningly bad.  A shadow of his former self - I thought he was done, fini, career over.  He showed literally none of the skills, attributes or attitude that he'd used throughout his NHL career.  True, it was only one AHL game, on the road (at Manchester), and any player can look bad on a given night in any league, but Souray appeared totally disengaged, playing to not get hurt, etc.

    2) - Obviously Souray worked hard this summer, getting his mind and body in NHL condition one more time.  Neither Souray nor Wiz have the kind of talent where they're going to carry a team by themselves, but give either of 'em a complement of talented forwards on a power play, you can pretty much wind them up, turn 'em loose and watch the points add up.  Who will get more points?  My guess is Wiz, but only because inevitably Souray will get himself nicked up and miss some games.

    3) - Regardless of offensive prowess, Wiz is truly atrocious defensively (I haven't checked his career plus/minus, but I'm pretty sure he's a confirmed minus man).  Though this may be off the main point here, I know I wouldn't want Wiz, especially at the overpaid amount Columbus invested in him.  Would much prefer Souray for less money and a shorter term than risking all that long-term cap space on the much traveled Wiz.  There are reasons Wiz has played for so many organizations, and while Souray has also, Dallas' risk factor is much lower than Columbus'.

    EDIT add-on - Just checked their career stats:

    Wiz:  GP 335  Pts. 152  +/- 0

    Souray:  GP  663  Pts. 274  +/-  -42

    Which I guess makes Souray's defense "atrocious" too (and doesn't change my opinion of Wiz' defensive proclivities), but I'd still prefer Souray for less money and shorter contract.

     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Thing you are forgetting is like with Torres this is meant in fun.  And its a different conversation than with Marchand or Thornton threads.  This is in fun.  And like Tim Brent was in fun and like the ribbings I took with Torres.  Its in fun.  Relax.  I dont care if I win.  Because what does that even mean.  That I am grand puba on here for a day.  Wow, I hope thats not the legacy I leave this earth with. 
    Posted by shuperman


    I'm not upset about it shupe, I just think the whole debate might be more fun if it was re-visited like once a month instead of after every game where Souray has a point.  But I'm here, so...whatever.

    No matter how things are compared, I think you've been right so far.  Souray has been better than expected (by me anyhow).  But I would only have a horse in this debate if we're looking at the whole season.  That's what I'm interested in.

    As far as teams, I don't know which is more shocking -- how good Dallas has been or how horrible the Jackets have been.  I thought they would both be pretty average.  Souray has had fantastic goaltending behind him.  Wiz has had abysmal goaltending.  Will it last?  Will Carter make a difference?  Let's wait and see.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : I'm not upset about it shupe, I just think the whole debate might be more fun if it was re-visited like once a month instead of after every game where Souray has a point.  But I'm here, so...whatever. No matter how things are compared, I think you've been right so far.  Souray has been better than expected (by me anyhow).  But I would only have a horse in this debate if we're looking at the whole season.  That's what I'm interested in. As far as teams, I don't know which is more shocking -- how good Dallas has been or how horrible the Jackets have been.  I thought they would both be pretty average.  Souray has had fantastic goaltending behind him.  Wiz has had abysmal goaltending.  Will it last?  Will Carter make a difference?  Let's wait and see.
    Posted by Fletcher1


    Fair enough.  It was a solid weekend for my boy and a horrible one for the Wiz and thats really the only reason I brought it up.  At least someone is paying attention to Colmbus and Dallas. 

    I think Columbus is gonna blow it up soon to be honest and you know Souray on a one year deal will get them an asset at the deadline unless they do the unthinkable and resign him.


     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz :  EDIT add-on - Just checked their career stats: Wiz:  GP 335  Pts. 152  +/- 0 Souray:  GP  663  Pts. 274  +/-  -42 Which I guess makes Souray's defense "atrocious" too (and doesn't change my opinion of Wiz' defensive proclivities), but I'd still prefer Souray for less money and shorter contract.
    Posted by BruinsCountry


    Good research BC but as you go through the debate you'll see allot of the discussion were accomplishments head to head at each age level. So anything past Wiz's current age I haven't considered overall.

    I'm sure Keven Lowe and Steve Tambellini would love to discuss Souray's wonder years in Edmonton Wink

    PS. by the way good to see you back posting haven't seen you in awhile.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Fair enough.  It was a solid weekend for my boy and a horrible one for the Wiz and thats really the only reason I brought it up.  At least someone is paying attention to Colmbus and Dallas.  I think Columbus is gonna blow it up soon to be honest and you know Souray on a one year deal will get them an asset at the deadline unless they do the unthinkable and resign him.
    Posted by shuperman


    But what if Dallas makes they playoffs?  They have to keep Souray for the run.  They're on the right path too.  I think he stays in Dallas unless they really tank.

    I'm not sure what Columbus can blow up, except for Arniel.  Carter and Wiz have new deals and they can't really get rid of Nash.  The other role players won't fetch anything until the trade deadline.  I think they're stuck with that wreck and better hope they can get it turned around.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : But what if Dallas makes they playoffs?  They have to keep Souray for the run.  They're on the right path too.  I think he stays in Dallas unless they really tank. I'm not sure what Columbus can blow up, except for Arniel.  Carter and Wiz have new deals and they can't really get rid of Nash.  The other role players won't fetch anything until the trade deadline.  I think they're stuck with that wreck and better hope they can get it turned around.
    Posted by Fletcher1


    Another mans garbage is another mans treasure.  I think Mason will be dealt.  I can seem Umberger and yes Nash.  I know he has a NTC but wouldnt he jump in a minute to go into a hockey crazed playoff environment?  That team isnt getting better and Nash could be a perfect way to tear it down and build over.  They easily get possibly 2 first round picks and solid NHL ready players.  Since I see Boston as a match.
    1st rounder, DK and Hamilton for Nash. 
    Seguin/Nash/Lucic
    Bergie/Marchand/Horton
    Yeah I like this. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Another mans garbage is another mans treasure.  I think Mason will be dealt.  I can seem Umberger and yes Nash.  I know he has a NTC but wouldnt he jump in a minute to go into a hockey crazed playoff environment?  That team isnt getting better and Nash could be a perfect way to tear it down and build over.  They easily get possibly 2 first round picks and solid NHL ready players.  Since I see Boston as a match. 1st rounder, DK and Hamilton for Nash.  Seguin/Nash/Lucic Bergie/Marchand/Horton Yeah I like this. 
    Posted by shuperman


    First Calgary and now Columbus.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : First Calgary and now Columbus.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-


    What would you do in Columbus?  I think it was the hnic feed that mentioned dealing Nash...they could get a lot for him. In my proposal they then would have.
    Carter and DK up the middle.  2 first rounders in a strong draft and adding Hamilton.  If I'm Col. I listen to the highest bidder and then ask him to waive the ntc.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : What would you do in Columbus?  I think it was the hnic feed that mentioned dealing Nash...they could get a lot for him. In my proposal they then would have. Carter and DK up the middle.  2 first rounders in a strong draft and adding Hamilton.  If I'm Col. I listen to the highest bidder and then ask him to waive the ntc.  
    Posted by shuperman

    As much as I like Nash, I'd prefer to have DK and Hamilton long-term. Your proposal seems fair enough (BJ's would jump at it). I just don't think the gamble would be worth it.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Another mans garbage is another mans treasure.  I think Mason will be dealt.  I can seem Umberger and yes Nash.  I know he has a NTC but wouldnt he jump in a minute to go into a hockey crazed playoff environment?  That team isnt getting better and Nash could be a perfect way to tear it down and build over.  They easily get possibly 2 first round picks and solid NHL ready players.  Since I see Boston as a match. 1st rounder, DK and Hamilton for Nash.  Seguin/Nash/Lucic Bergie/Marchand/Horton Yeah I like this. 
    Posted by shuperman


    Man, I think that would be a lousy deal for the Bruins.  Too much for Nash, since Lucic and Horton are similar, although slightly less talented, players.  I think the Jackets cannot blow up anything yet.  The time to deal Nash for max value would be at the trade deadline when some team is willing to overpay to make a run at the Cup.  I think the Jackets will need to wait it out.

    Mason has looked like an AHL goalie for about 2 years now.  I don't see much value there, especially after his horrific start this year.

    I also think that it shows an embarassing lack of organizational strategy to make huge offseason signings in Wiz and Carter, and then blow it up before they even have a chance to play together.  You've got to at least give your investment a chance for half a season, right?

    I think they'll dump Arniel soon.  Otherwise, they need to ride this out until February at least.  Don't you think?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : What would you do in Columbus?  I think it was the hnic feed that mentioned dealing Nash...they could get a lot for him. In my proposal they then would have. Carter and DK up the middle.  2 first rounders in a strong draft and adding Hamilton.  If I'm Col. I listen to the highest bidder and then ask him to waive the ntc.  
    Posted by shuperman


    First of all it's not what I would do it's what certain hockey people are saying what they should have done . Doug Maclean who was GM of that team has been following them as one might expect .

    These are his thoughts which I agree with. Steve Mason is struggling . Many observers of this team say that he has no confidence and at the moment he can't stop a beach ball. They are last in the league in GA. Scott Howson didn't go out to get a capable backup during the summer. Word was that Howson rejected offers from Vokoun and Turco when they approached him about a backup goalie position.

    This left Mark Dekanich as 1st choice for backup. He's been out all year hurt. Next choice Curtis Sanford . He got hurt leaving Allen York as the backup. 

    Quality goalies eh ? I don't think your fantasy trade helps out in the real problem the Blue Jackets have. Keeping the puck out of the net.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Man, I think that would be a lousy deal for the Bruins.  Too much for Nash, since Lucic and Horton are similar, although slightly less talented, players.  I think the Jackets cannot blow up anything yet.  The time to deal Nash for max value would be at the trade deadline when some team is willing to overpay to make a run at the Cup.  I think the Jackets will need to wait it out. Mason has looked like an AHL goalie for about 2 years now.  I don't see much value there, especially after his horrific start this year. I also think that it shows an embarassing lack of organizational strategy to make huge offseason signings in Wiz and Carter, and then blow it up before they even have a chance to play together.  You've got to at least give your investment a chance for half a season, right? I think they'll dump Arniel soon.  Otherwise, they need to ride this out until February at least.  Don't you think?
    Posted by Fletcher1


    Good post and I agree.  Well not the part about Nash.  World class goal scorers in my eyes are more valuable than a 70 pt center and two 1st rounders.  Hamilton should be very good.  I would much rather have Nash.  But thats just my opinion.  I dont wanna blow it up and if DK were ever to be dealt it should be for a number 2 dman.  Ala Suter possible JBo
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Good post and I agree.  Well not the part about Nash.  World class goal scorers in my eyes are more valuable than a 70 pt center and two 1st rounders.  Hamilton should be very good.  I would much rather have Nash.  But thats just my opinion.  I dont wanna blow it up and if DK were ever to be dealt it should be for a number 2 dman.  Ala Suter possible JBo
    Posted by shuperman

    Shupe, if he'd had at least one 50 goal season than MAYBE you could start throwing the world class goal scorer tag around. And that would have to be added to what he's already done up to this point. He's only scored 40 twice, maxing out at 41.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Shupe, if he'd had at least one 50 goal season than MAYBE you could start throwing the world class goal scorer tag around. And that would have to be added to what he's already done up to this point. He's only scored 40 twice, maxing out at 41.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    I'd have to agree with shupe on this one . I look at what Nash has had tp play with all these years and what he's achieved . Nash not getting 50 wouldn't change my mind on him being a world class scorer.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : I'd have to agree with shupe on this one . I look at what Nash has had tp play with all these years and what he's achieved . Nash not getting 50 wouldn't change my mind on him being a world class scorer.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-

    Are we willing to say Glen Murray was a world class goal scorer? His career goals per game isn't far behind Nash.
     
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    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Are we willing to say Glen Murray was a world class goal scorer? His career goals per game isn't far behind Nash.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    Dez, you know Murray is a buddy of mine but there are big differences.

    D1- Murray was blessed with having Joe and Knuble.  I think you would concede that if Nash were on that line he would have matched and likely exceded Glens totals.
    D2- completely different style of player.  Nash creates his own offense.  Glen lived off his size and quick shot.  You dont see Glen with highlight of the year goal videos burning 3 players.
    D3- Nash has zero talent around him and never had anyone.
    D4- Nash will be on the next olympic team likely and is a world class player and scorer.

    I see your pts though
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

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    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Are we willing to say Glen Murray was a world class goal scorer? His career goals per game isn't far behind Nash.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    dez please read .


    "I look at what Nash has had to play with all these years and what he's achieved".

    Does this sound like Glen Murray's career ?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Dez, you know Murray is a buddy of mine but there are big differences. D1- Murray was blessed with having Joe and Knuble.  I think you would concede that if Nash were on that line he would have matched and likely exceded Glens totals. D2- completely different style of player.  Nash creates his own offense.  Glen lived off his size and quick shot.  You dont see Glen with highlight of the year goal videos burning 3 players. D3- Nash has zero talent around him and never had anyone. D4- Nash will be on the next olympic team likely and is a world class player and scorer. I see your pts though
    Posted by shuperman

    Shupe, I should qualify this by saying Nash is one of my favorite players outside of Boston. I still just don't think he'd score enough to make up for losing DK's offense and whatever positives Hamilton can eventually bring. I pulled Muzz out of the woodwork because I knew your buddy would get your attention. Cheers.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    oh the one-timer from the slot...gotta love glen murray. i'd say the closest comparison would be horton. they get their goals in the same area- only horty prefers the twisted wrister. i'll stay out of the "world class" and "elite" conversation... it's an argument that has no definitive answer.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : Dez, you know Murray is a buddy of mine but there are big differences. D1- Murray was blessed with having Joe and Knuble.  I think you would concede that if Nash were on that line he would have matched and likely exceded Glens totals. D2- completely different style of player.  Nash creates his own offense.  Glen lived off his size and quick shot.  You dont see Glen with highlight of the year goal videos burning 3 players. D3- Nash has zero talent around him and never had anyone. D4- Nash will be on the next olympic team likely and is a world class player and scorer. I see your pts though
    Posted by shuperman


     Now that's a heck of a post .  Did you just escape from being kidnapped ?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz : dez please read . "I look at what Nash has had to play with all these years and what he's achieved". Does this sound like Glen Murray's career ?
    Posted by Chowdahkid-

    When do we start having the same questions of Nash that we do of Weiss(for instance). Do we know Nash would have better numbers if he left Ohio? Less ice-time than he's used to might balance out the idea of playing with better players. Like I said earlier, I find the idea of trading for Vermette to be more intriguing than giving up what'd be necessary to acquire Nash.
     
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    Re: Souray vs Wiz

    In Response to Re: Souray vs Wiz:
    oh the one-timer from the slot...gotta love glen murray. i'd say the closest comparison would be horton. they get their goals in the same area- only horty prefers the twisted wrister. i'll stay out of the "world class" and "elite" conversation... it's an argument that has no definitive answer.  
    Posted by adkbeesfan


    Horton-Murray comparison/s are pretty accurate.  Murray wasnt as tough as Horton but he sure could put the puck in the net.  He always could. 
     
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