Subban to win Norris

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from huntbri. Show huntbri's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Chara should win the Norris that is a no doubter.  For him to not to be included in the final 3 is a joke even though the awards are only based on regular season.  I do think that PK is fairly average defensively but so is Karlsson and he won.   PK however is great offensively and fantastic at moving the puck out of his own end.  Add a little bit of a mean streak to that and I can say that even though I don't like PK's antics, I love his game and would take him on the Bruins in a second.

     

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Not me.  This jerk can stay elsewhere.  Check the reaction on the bench.  Not even a good job pat.  One player taps the boards, but then stops when Subban continues his routine.

    Watch it here.


    F this guy.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from perrysound. Show perrysound's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    I don't care. The only Trophy that matters is the Cup. PK ain't playing for that anytime soon.

              Looking for a new "warm and fuzzy" Cup Win.   
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    Call me a homer all you want.  

    It should be Chara.



    I agree and no that's not being a homer. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011. Show StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    CHARA way ahead of Subban ...he is dominant , he is intimidating, he is a beast ...Subban good on PP but other than that he looks like a clown on the ice ...SHAME on the NHL

     Stanley Cup to the BRUINS in 2011 & 2013 (a walk in the park)

     
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    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     


    Speaking for myself I am not 'upset' at all.  I think Subban has become an elite player and can certainly be a game-changer.  I don't think he deserves the Norris, for a variety of reasons.  One of the reasons is that Zdeno Chara is both a better player and a better defender.

     

    Some of the other reaons:

    He's not the best offensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best defensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best 'intangibles' defensmen in the league (128th in blocked shots, well below Suter, Chara, Letang).

    He's 35th in the league in TOI (well behind Suter, Letang, Chara)

    He doesn't even led Hab defensemen in TOI, which means a lot to me.

    His team bowed out in the 1st round of the playoffs, to a lower seed.

    His antics and behavior are sometimes a distraction and embarassment to his team.

     

    I know how good he can be.  He does certain things better than anyone and is a fright to watch play against the Bruins.  But I remain totally puzzled as to why people think he is THE best defensmen in the NHL.  He isn't.

     

     

     



    Do you think every Norris Trophy has been rewarded based on this? 
    - he was the best offensive dman this year.
    - he has improved his def game and isn't Mike Green.  I think Girardi or McDonaugh are great defenders.  I think Kronwall is a great defender.  I think Chara is the best defender.
    - I don't want PK laying in front of shots.  I want him on the ice.  Probably a big reason he doesnt get to kill pims. 
    - His icetime will increase.  He lead all players in the 7 game series against Boston a few yrs back.  Once his def improves so will his minutes. 
    - I agree on his antics. 

     

    I'm not saying you Fletch but many on here hate him and I understand why.  I just think if you watch him play you appreciate what he does(as you've stated).  He's a special talent.  I don't think every Norris winner has lead in all the things you have broken down.  I don't think he's the best dman in the league.  He makes my team Canada team but barely.  I do consider him an elite top dman in the league.  Many on here don't or didn't. 

    Dez and I had a friendly war of words going.  Black Spidey wins this one but I've lost so many to him I lost count.  And on this I agree with Dez more then I did before.  I watched every Kings game.  Drew is a complete stud.  Keith is a complete stud.  Chara is the best defender in the world.  PK is not these yet.  This award says he might be but he isnt.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think I agree with all of that shupe, and I agree that the award not always been given to the best candidate in the past either.  But that doesn't make it right this time, and there does seem to be a growing trend of valuing dynamic offensive players above the more outstanding defenders for the Norris.  It seems like Torey Krug would have a better shot at the Norris than Chara if the trend continues...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

     


    Speaking for myself I am not 'upset' at all.  I think Subban has become an elite player and can certainly be a game-changer.  I don't think he deserves the Norris, for a variety of reasons.  One of the reasons is that Zdeno Chara is both a better player and a better defender.

     

    Some of the other reaons:

    He's not the best offensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best defensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best 'intangibles' defensmen in the league (128th in blocked shots, well below Suter, Chara, Letang).

    He's 35th in the league in TOI (well behind Suter, Letang, Chara)

    He doesn't even led Hab defensemen in TOI, which means a lot to me.

    His team bowed out in the 1st round of the playoffs, to a lower seed.

    His antics and behavior are sometimes a distraction and embarassment to his team.

     

    I know how good he can be.  He does certain things better than anyone and is a fright to watch play against the Bruins.  But I remain totally puzzled as to why people think he is THE best defensmen in the NHL.  He isn't.

     

     

     

     



    Do you think every Norris Trophy has been rewarded based on this? 
    - he was the best offensive dman this year.
    - he has improved his def game and isn't Mike Green.  I think Girardi or McDonaugh are great defenders.  I think Kronwall is a great defender.  I think Chara is the best defender.
    - I don't want PK laying in front of shots.  I want him on the ice.  Probably a big reason he doesnt get to kill pims. 
    - His icetime will increase.  He lead all players in the 7 game series against Boston a few yrs back.  Once his def improves so will his minutes. 
    - I agree on his antics. 

     

     

    I'm not saying you Fletch but many on here hate him and I understand why.  I just think if you watch him play you appreciate what he does(as you've stated).  He's a special talent.  I don't think every Norris winner has lead in all the things you have broken down.  I don't think he's the best dman in the league.  He makes my team Canada team but barely.  I do consider him an elite top dman in the league.  Many on here don't or didn't. 

    Dez and I had a friendly war of words going.  Black Spidey wins this one but I've lost so many to him I lost count.  And on this I agree with Dez more then I did before.  I watched every Kings game.  Drew is a complete stud.  Keith is a complete stud.  Chara is the best defender in the world.  PK is not these yet.  This award says he might be but he isnt.

     



    I think I agree with all of that shupe, and I agree that the award not always been given to the best candidate in the past either.  But that doesn't make it right this time, and there does seem to be a growing trend of valuing dynamic offensive players above the more outstanding defenders for the Norris.  It seems like Torey Krug would have a better shot at the Norris than Chara if the trend continues...



    Blame Orr.  Haha. Yes im kidding and i agree.  Scoring is sexy.  A guy like girardi blocks more then king hendrick.   Doesnt get a lot of media play and i would love him on the bruins.  The debate will always be there.  Kevin Lowe was a great dman.  Coffee was fun to watch.  

    Im sure when Orr was breaking records and recreating the position there were better stay at home dmen who blocked more shots.   

    and before someone calls me on it, no im not trying to compare pk to the 2nd best player and best dman that ever played.  

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Not me.  This jerk can stay elsewhere.  Check the reaction on the bench.  Not even a good job pat.  One player taps the boards, but then stops when Subban continues his routine.

    Watch it here.


    F this guy.



    I dont see him staying in montreal.  I mentioned his leadership skills.  He has none.  Someone is gonna clean his clock.  how would a guy like prust even wanna protect this douchhebag.  

    World class skill that has a pee brain.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    I am late to the picture show here.  Like so many I am thinking time to change the trophy titles.  The Chara Trophy would be a nice gesture once he retires.  It does honor European hockey ala Krejci, Rask, Jagr et al.  He is a defensive defenseman who was beyond even the likes of Doug Harvey.  His physical being, flexibility, conditioning and statistical outlays (Stanley Cups) should be the focus.  Congrats to Subban btw, he has fine skills and has learned partially to reign in his ego tripping Montreal Greg Lugannis stereotyping to be an effective offensive defenseman.  YET, he is no Zdeno Chara! 

    Don't judge me monkey!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Kypreos can report all he wants. Subban worked for The Fan 590 during the lock-out and became very chummy with Mr. Kypreos.

    This was nothing more than a prediction for his new chum. He has no inside info.

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Don-Bruino's comment:

    Kypreos can report all he wants. Subban worked for The Fan 590 during the lock-out and became very chummy with Mr. Kypreos.

    This was nothing more than a prediction for his new chum. He has no inside info.

     

     



    Very specific prediction then considering that Kypreos also said the date on which it would be announced. I also don't understand what he or Subban would have to gain by leaking misinformation. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from huntbri. Show huntbri's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Not me.  This jerk can stay elsewhere.  Check the reaction on the bench.  Not even a good job pat.  One player taps the boards, but then stops when Subban continues his routine.

    Watch it here.


    F this guy.



    I was talking more about his play but you are correct that he seems to have alienated his teammates.  Even with his antics Marchand seems to get along well with his teammates.  Therefore maybe PK is a jerk on and off the ice and no matter how talented would be too much of a distraction. I guess the question is can he mature and would a change of scenery do him some good. For a team like the Bruins that have a good corp in place for a number of years to come, perhaps the risk would be too great to take a chance on him.  I still do like his game however.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from 86redsox. Show 86redsox's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Best offenceman?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    ending threads since '07

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from huntbri. Show huntbri's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to 86redsox's comment:

    Best offenceman?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    ending threads since '07



    Good one.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from KMCI. Show KMCI's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to BsLegion's comment:

     

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:

     

    I can't figure out the mindset of the voters to be honest. Letang had better offensive numbers and Suter is just flat out a better overall D man. I'm not at all surprised he won but I have to say that the award has really seemed to have taken on a new meaning since the days of Rod Langway winning it. Congratulations PK. Maybe next year you'll see as much ice time as Markov. On that note, am I alone in thinking that the amount of time your coach wants you to play is the truest indicator of your value to the team?  


    "wow,check out all of the losers in here......"

    -Gerry Dee
     

     



    agree Dez, all they look at is the offensive numbers , at least most of the times. Last Karlsson the same thing, it was his point totals not his work on defense in his own end. We all saw what a good defense (Chara) can do to win a series and how bad (Letang) could being a big part why they lost the series.

     

     



    I dont buy into this theory.  His position is defense.   It doesn't mean he has to be Rod Langway.  Chara is a unique beast and I will never say bad of his game.  But the same way a Chara can change a game a series and Karlsson or Letang can also change or influence a series.  Letang stunk in this yrs playoffs but hes a good dman.  Karlsson is the same.  Nic Lidstrom was one of the smartest dmen in the league.  Not really known for a shut down dman but I sure as heck would want him on the ice. 
    If the game was on the line I would want a Chara defending and a Letang/PK/Karlsson when trailing. 

     

    All the skill puck mover types are very fleat of foot, can pass and normally have the puck and are out of trouble before it happens.  I don't think this is a flaw.  Green is probably the best example and even he has improved his def game.  And the one thing to remember here is that you can always teach playing a solid tight defensive game.  You can not teach what these guys have. 



    Leafs up 4-1 Z  was on ice for next 4 goals and the win, Ill take Z at both ends when game is on the line.

     

    GOAT!!!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

     

    Shupe, you cant see it but I'm raising my hand up waiting for the high five.


    I dont know what everyone is so upset about. He had a terrific year. A big reason they won the division.

     



    Speaking for myself I am not 'upset' at all.  I think Subban has become an elite player and can certainly be a game-changer.  I don't think he deserves the Norris, for a variety of reasons.  One of the reasons is that Zdeno Chara is both a better player and a better defender.

     

    Some of the other reaons:

    He's not the best offensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best defensive defensmen in the league.

    He's not the best 'intangibles' defensmen in the league (128th in blocked shots, well below Suter, Chara, Letang).

    He's 35th in the league in TOI (well behind Suter, Letang, Chara)

    He doesn't even led Hab defensemen in TOI, which means a lot to me.

    His team bowed out in the 1st round of the playoffs, to a lower seed.

    His antics and behavior are sometimes a distraction and embarassment to his team.

     

    I know how good he can be.  He does certain things better than anyone and is a fright to watch play against the Bruins.  But I remain totally puzzled as to why people think he is THE best defensmen in the NHL.  He isn't.

     

     



    fletch, agree with your perspective. 

    would also add:

    6th among Habs d-men in SHTOI

    4th among Habs d-men in Hits

    4th among Habs d-men in Blks

    Outstanding skill-set, dynamic offensive player, but his game still needs to grow.  He is not a complete player, this Norris Trophy is premanture IMO.  I think Suter was the best choice.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    would also add:

    6th among Habs d-men in SHTOI



    This says it all.  Plain and simple:  If you are not your own team's best penalty kill defenseman, you cetainly aren't the best defenseman in the league by any means.  There is no possible spin that can change that.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

     

    would also add:

    6th among Habs d-men in SHTOI

     



    This says it all.  Plain and simple:  If you are not your own team's best penalty kill defenseman, you cetainly aren't the best defenseman in the league by any means.  There is no possible spin that can change that.

     



    That's how I feel.  Karlsson was even worse, averaged only 33 seconds of SHTOI per game the year he won the Norris.  Matt Carkner averaged 53 seconds per game.

    That's the difference between great two-way d-men and the sexy high-scorers like Karlsson, Letang & Subban.  Make a Paul Coffey Award for those guys and leave the Norrs for the best overall d-man.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Kennedy97. Show Kennedy97's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Wow! I'm stunned--you mean the Norris Trophy often over-emphasizes offensive numbers by a defenseman? Shocker! Who'd have thought? I honestly believed guys like Brian Leetch and (especially) Paul "Burnt" Coffey won the award multiple times due primarily to their strong play in their own end of the ice. I'll try not to let Subban's victory destroy my faith in the integrity of this "defensive" award.

    I really don't get caught up in offensive awards very much, and the Norris is the NHL equivelant of a Grammy. I'm not surprised by the angst here--in fact I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't any! Wink

     (You are downplaying Subban's vast improvement in his own end between his arrival in the league and now, especially this season. But if he's the best "defense"man in the NHL, I'm Foster Hewitt.)

     
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    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Kennedy97's comment:

    Wow! I'm stunned--you mean the Norris Trophy often over-emphasizes offensive numbers by a defenseman? Shocker! Who'd have thought? I honestly believed guys like Brian Leetch and (especially) Paul "Burnt" Coffey won the award multiple times due primarily to their strong play in their own end of the ice. I'll try not to let Subban's victory destroy my faith in the integrity of this "defensive" award.

    I really don't get caught up in offensive awards very much, and the Norris is the NHL equivelant of a Grammy. I'm not surprised by the angst here--in fact I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't any! Wink

     (You are downplaying Subban's vast improvement in his own end between his arrival in the league and now, especially this season. But if he's the best "defense"man in the NHL, I'm Foster Hewitt.)




    If he was the best D, Foster would jump out of his Gondola.

     

    GOAT!!!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Wonder if the hart trophy is based on the fwds shtoi or blocks, or hits etc etc.  maybe the hart trophy for best fwd should be looked at as well.  Pretty sure ovi, crosby and tav dont lead in those stats.   

    this debate if we bring it back up started with dez and i.  I said he was already an elite top end dman.  Dez said no way, he hasnt proved anything and the test of time would show us more.  I said he would win a norris trophy some day.   Dez said no way.  It was a good debate back and forth.  Now, what i took from that made me really watch closely to players like drew.  it made me appreciate drews game a lot more.  I already watch dmen closer then any position bc i used to play it, was a stay at home guy who could move ok but was a pk guy who moved the puck and never saw pp time.  when i watch a keith or drew play it blows me away the skill and how smooth they make it look.  

    When i first started paying attention to pk the same thing struck me.  Pk in the 2011 playoffs in round 1 against us did it all. He lead all players in ice time, he played every situation and dominated.   This combined with his first few yrs totals had me thinking this guy is an elite talent. This year his game took another step fwd bc he can dominate and take over a game.  His skating, hitting(borderline-reminds me of kronwall), shooting, passing and skill set really impress me.  Take his antics and jersey away for a moment.  This guy can be taught to play tight in his own end.  Its probably the easiest thing to teach a young dman.  Blocking shots again can be taught.  One on one battles this guy is gonna win a lot more then he loses bc of his skating which is world class.  Phanuef was given as an example.  They kinda have similar game in my eyes.  Phaneuf has become better in his own end over time. Still not a Girardi but he is still very good.  

    Ive said my part about pk. World class talent.  Im not sure giving him the norris this soon does anything to help his game advance bc of his ego/over confidence.  It sure is gonna make him a rich man after the next season.  Which i said would happen, sure montreal gm won tat battle.  Pk is gonna win the war there.  6million plus?    I dont think pk will ever be a leader of a team and when we talk clown he sure is a side show, the rodeo would love him.   I love watching his skill set on display.  

    As an old style protect your house dman Im envious of his ability but in no way do i view him as the leagues best dman.  That title is anchored by chara.  Drew is my next pick.  

    Hopefully we are all alive and healthy 5-10 yrs time so we can further this debate.  

    Cheers to my buddy Dez.  You made me open my eyes a bit on a position i think i know pretty well.  

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to Kennedy97's comment:

    Wow! I'm stunned--you mean the Norris Trophy often over-emphasizes offensive numbers by a defenseman? Shocker! Who'd have thought? I honestly believed guys like Brian Leetch and (especially) Paul "Burnt" Coffey won the award multiple times due primarily to their strong play in their own end of the ice. I'll try not to let Subban's victory destroy my faith in the integrity of this "defensive" award.

    I really don't get caught up in offensive awards very much, and the Norris is the NHL equivelant of a Grammy. I'm not surprised by the angst here--in fact I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't any! Wink

     (You are downplaying Subban's vast improvement in his own end between his arrival in the league and now, especially this season. But if he's the best "defense"man in the NHL, I'm Foster Hewitt.)




    Fantastic post, Kennedy.

    As our resident Habs fan, I have a question though. What is Subban's perception (in general) among the fanbase? We all know his skill is unquestionable, but what do the illuminati think of his overall play and standing when compared to the many Hab defensive greats?

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    Every season is different, but for me and 2013:

    Suter>Chara>Kronwall>Weber>Subban>Doughty>Markov>Keith>Girardi>

    Letang>Doughty

     

    Open for debate.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Subban to win Norris

    In response to asmaha's comment:

    Every season is different, but for me and 2013:

    Suter>Chara>Kronwall>Weber>Subban>Doughty>Markov>Keith>Girardi>

    Letang>Doughty

     

    Open for debate.



    I dont think chara had a great season by his standards.  I hate suter so i cant be open minded towards him, weber had a very off year, doughty had a very off year, keith had a solid year and likely should be in the norris race.  Mcdonaugh is a complete stud who i love from the nyr.  kronwall is a complete stud as well.   

     
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