That bum Chiarelli

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Chiarelli put together the team that won the Cup.  I will be forever grateful for that.

    His drafting is a joke.

    Hamill, Colbourne and Caron.  El Busto, El Busto and looking like El Busto.  His first round winners are Seguin (bushmen in the Sarengeti could have made that pick) and Hamilton (logical choice).  Don't bother telling me Subban was a winning draft pick as he's never played a pro game. 

    Taking Seguin and Hamilton out of the story, since 2007, Chiarelli draft picks have 33 points.  Taking Caron out of that, they have EIGHT.

    In 2007, the Habs selected Subban and Pacioretty.  256 combined points.

    In 2008, the Rangers took Stepan and Del Zotto.  235 points.

    There are always examples of people doing better or worse.  (I find draft history very interesting, as you may know.)  These were the first ones on Google, so I used them. 

    Once again, before you click that "reply" button and attempt to blow me up:  I'm happy the Bruins won the Cup.  Chiarelli made a few very important moves to get the team there.  Without those moves, it is very unlikely we could have had a parade in 2011.  This is the present.  As we watch slug after slug get called up from Providence and fail, a review is in order.  Outside of two gimmes, no Chiarelli draft pick is an NHL player.  (NHL player = NHL playing time while never getting scratched for Pandopho.)  And that's poor.



    Terrible drafting.  More on the scouts and team officials then pc.  as you mentioned hes had two home runs fall in his lap in segz and hammy.  Subban is nothing more then a goalie prospect.  Outside of that.  Well. Its been brutal.   

    PC moves to help the roster i find have been a C+.  Peverly was vital in the cup run.  But boy having wheeler and stuart(who i always liked) would be nice right now.  

    Im happy with his moves.  At least he makes an honest effort to improve this club.   Even though i said he should have added an upgrade on def before the seaon in case of injury.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    PC is the GM.  A good portion of his job isn't hockey related.  I agree the drafting hasn't been great, good even...but that's by committee, so I don't really hold him responsible.  I see nothing congratulatory on the Kessel deal, because it wasn't his intent.  If it was, different story.  The FA's....not sure how much influence he had there, but it's nuts to figure he didn't have any, so lets give him that.  I believe Chiarelli's presence has upped the Bruins standing with players overall, and that's a great thing.  Boston didn't used to be an area code on anyones wish list. 

    Strongly disagree with any negativity going PC's way about hoarding money(unspent cap potential).  That's just never the GM's call.  It's ownership.  We'll never know if he's really had those resouces available or not.

    Overall, I think he's been great though.  There's just a different culture now, and it's better.  He's certainly smart enough, and he appears to think things through.  He also appears to operate with a fair degree of integrity, and that resonates everywhere.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    Strongly disagree with any negativity going PC's way about hoarding money(unspent cap potential).  That's just never the GM's call.  It's ownership.  We'll never know if he's really had those resouces available or not.




    Agree that we'll never know what resources were or were not available, so not really valid to say it's never the GM's call.  Those two points-of-view are somewhat in conflict with one another. 

    Neely repeatedly stated in interviews that team expected to be aggressive and exploit the 2012-13 Cap Space they had available.  I would submit that if that was the goal, they fell well short of it.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Chiarelli put together the team that won the Cup.  I will be forever grateful for that.

    His drafting is a joke.

    Hamill, Colbourne and Caron.  El Busto, El Busto and looking like El Busto.  His first round winners are Seguin (bushmen in the Sarengeti could have made that pick) and Hamilton (logical choice).  Don't bother telling me Subban was a winning draft pick as he's never played a pro game. 

    Taking Seguin and Hamilton out of the story, since 2007, Chiarelli draft picks have 33 points.  Taking Caron out of that, they have EIGHT.

    In 2007, the Habs selected Subban and Pacioretty.  256 combined points.

    In 2008, the Rangers took Stepan and Del Zotto.  235 points.

    There are always examples of people doing better or worse.  (I find draft history very interesting, as you may know.)  These were the first ones on Google, so I used them. 

    Once again, before you click that "reply" button and attempt to blow me up:  I'm happy the Bruins won the Cup.  Chiarelli made a few very important moves to get the team there.  Without those moves, it is very unlikely we could have had a parade in 2011.  This is the present.  As we watch slug after slug get called up from Providence and fail, a review is in order.  Outside of two gimmes, no Chiarelli draft pick is an NHL player.  (NHL player = NHL playing time while never getting scratched for Pandopho.)  And that's poor.

     



    Terrible drafting.  More on the scouts and team officials then pc.  as you mentioned hes had two home runs fall in his lap in segz and hammy.  Subban is nothing more then a goalie prospect.  Outside of that.  Well. Its been brutal.   

     

    PC moves to help the roster i find have been a C+.  Peverly was vital in the cup run.  But boy having wheeler and stuart(who i always liked) would be nice right now.  

    Im happy with his moves.  At least he makes an honest effort to improve this club.   Even though i said he should have added an upgrade on def before the seaon in case of injury.  



    hammy? really?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    It's not like you take your available cap space and go to the player store where you pick up the missing pieces you need.   They'd have had to make trades to get players with higher salaries - many of whom would also be under contract for next year - in order to "optimize" how much they were spending.  I've said this over and over again about everyone's favourite player, Cap Spaes: it's meaningless, a distraction.  What you want to optimize is the talent in the organization with a concentration on the NHL roster.  If the best players in the league had a combined salary of $50M, would you care that there was $20M outstanding?  If you do, you're thinking about this in the wrong way.  I think it's fair to say that Chiarelli managed the cap so that money was not going to be a barrier to acquiring players to improve the roster.  That's what you want.  If the deals aren't there because the players you target choose to go elsewhere, or the teams who have them prefer other packages of players and picks or simply want waaaay too much...well, how is that a problem of not using up available money.  I don't know where the whole criticism for not spending to the cap thing came from, but it's wrong-headed unless it's an ownership decision to block acquisitions for financial reasons.

    Similarly, the "slighly above market" deals have all become at or below market over their course.  Tim Thomas, two-time Vezina winner and Conn Smythe winning goalie for an average of $5M was a steal when O time Cup winning goal Losewongo (ugh) is getting way more to pump tires.  Kelly and Peverley deals are pretty consistent with a guy like Joel Ward's deal and better than what comparable guys like John Madden have received in the past.

    Most importantly, the willingness to pay and to reward guys on the team - not nickle and dime them only to turn around and throw wads of cash at players from other teams - has been a huge part of changing the culture and the perception of the organization.  That alone - that connection - should be enough to counter the criticisms of his signings.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    Chiarelli put together the team that won the Cup.  I will be forever grateful for that.

    His drafting is a joke.

    Hamill, Colbourne and Caron.  El Busto, El Busto and looking like El Busto.  His first round winners are Seguin (bushmen in the Sarengeti could have made that pick) and Hamilton (logical choice).  Don't bother telling me Subban was a winning draft pick as he's never played a pro game. 

    Taking Seguin and Hamilton out of the story, since 2007, Chiarelli draft picks have 33 points.  Taking Caron out of that, they have EIGHT.

    In 2007, the Habs selected Subban and Pacioretty.  256 combined points.

    In 2008, the Rangers took Stepan and Del Zotto.  235 points.

    There are always examples of people doing better or worse.  (I find draft history very interesting, as you may know.)  These were the first ones on Google, so I used them. 

    Once again, before you click that "reply" button and attempt to blow me up:  I'm happy the Bruins won the Cup.  Chiarelli made a few very important moves to get the team there.  Without those moves, it is very unlikely we could have had a parade in 2011.  This is the present.  As we watch slug after slug get called up from Providence and fail, a review is in order.  Outside of two gimmes, no Chiarelli draft pick is an NHL player.  (NHL player = NHL playing time while never getting scratched for Pandopho.)  And that's poor.

     



    Terrible drafting.  More on the scouts and team officials then pc.  as you mentioned hes had two home runs fall in his lap in segz and hammy.  Subban is nothing more then a goalie prospect.  Outside of that.  Well. Its been brutal.   

     

    PC moves to help the roster i find have been a C+.  Peverly was vital in the cup run.  But boy having wheeler and stuart(who i always liked) would be nice right now.  

    Im happy with his moves.  At least he makes an honest effort to improve this club.   Even though i said he should have added an upgrade on def before the seaon in case of injury.  

     



    hammy? really?

     



    Yeah.  NAS Likes nicknames.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    It's not like you take your available cap space and go to the player store where you pick up the missing pieces you need.   They'd have had to make trades to get players with higher salaries - many of whom would also be under contract for next year - in order to "optimize" how much they were spending.  I've said this over and over again about everyone's favourite player, Cap Spaes: it's meaningless, a distraction.  What you want to optimize is the talent in the organization with a concentration on the NHL roster.  If the best players in the league had a combined salary of $50M, would you care that there was $20M outstanding?  If you do, you're thinking about this in the wrong way.  I think it's fair to say that Chiarelli managed the cap so that money was not going to be a barrier to acquiring players to improve the roster.  That's what you want.  If the deals aren't there because the players you target choose to go elsewhere, or the teams who have them prefer other packages of players and picks or simply want waaaay too much...well, how is that a problem of not using up available money.  I don't know where the whole criticism for not spending to the cap thing came from, but it's wrong-headed unless it's an ownership decision to block acquisitions for financial reasons.

    Similarly, the "slighly above market" deals have all become at or below market over their course.  Tim Thomas, two-time Vezina winner and Conn Smythe winning goalie for an average of $5M was a steal when O time Cup winning goal Losewongo (ugh) is getting way more to pump tires.  Kelly and Peverley deals are pretty consistent with a guy like Joel Ward's deal and better than what comparable guys like John Madden have received in the past.

    Most importantly, the willingness to pay and to reward guys on the team - not nickle and dime them only to turn around and throw wads of cash at players from other teams - has been a huge part of changing the culture and the perception of the organization.  That alone - that connection - should be enough to counter the criticisms of his signings.



    Thanks for the lecture, Book.  Couldn't disagree more.

    Cap Space and the ability to assemble a roster given the constraint of contracts and a ceiling seem like a key part of being a general manager.  Yes, that is an optimization exercise impacted by your previous personnel management, as well as, what is available/attainable in the market.  If you seem to think Cap Space is like a leprechaun's pot of gold, that is your prerogative. 

    The Bruins has spent about as much this year as the Bolts and the Caps, while the Pens, Habs and Rangers have all spent more (Eastern Conference only).  I realize you don't go to the store to get your $6M player, everyone gets that.  That said, the outcome of having available room are as a result of the moves you make or do not make over time.  The fact still remains that PC is $6M under and with Savard's LTIR, that's $10M.  I hold PC accountable for that.  If they win a Cup, he is a genius.  If not, it's fair game for constructive criticism.  If you wish to point to unicorns and rainbows, again, your prerogitive.

    On the slightly above market point, it's that he is also including NTC's.  How about one or the other?  Kelly has a full NTC, while Peverley has a partial.  You made the reference to Joel Ward, want to take a guess at what he doesn't have?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Taking Seguin and Hamilton out of the story, since 2007, Chiarelli draft picks have 33 points.  Taking Caron out of that, they have EIGHT.

    In 2007, the Habs selected Subban and Pacioretty.  256 combined points.

     

    [/QUOTE]




    The 2007 draft was a bonanza for the Habs. Just for curiousity sake, I took away that draft.

    The Habs have a combined 58 points from their draft picks since the 2008 draft. Rookies Galchenyuk and Gallagher with 43 of those 58. Only 15 points from the rest.

    The Bruins ? 165 NHL points since the 2008 draft. 132 from Seguin and Hamilton. 33 from the rest.

    More production from the B's draft picks then the Habs picks. Habs drafting since 2008 ? Not so good.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    PC is an unreal trader. picking up boychuk and mcquaid for basically nothing. Seidenberg + for a 2nd, Karsums and Lashoff for Recchi and a 2nd was robbery. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to shuperman's comment:


    Yeah.  NAS Likes nicknames.  



    You are the WORST!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    Chiarelli needs to draft better, period. I understand a good portion of the info he goes on comes from the scouting department, but ultimately, it falls on him, and if the results arent good enough, he needs to address the scouting department..

    That being said, scouts have a hand in players aqquired via trade as well. Probably not as big as an influence as I'm sure Chiarelli had more of his own info on Horton,Kelly etc..as it's easier to see them in person since they were already in the NHL.

    I like Chiarelli, think he made all the right moves to bring a cup here. Had to be tough to win a Cup in the same year you lose your best offensive player. To lose a guy like Marc Savard and not skip a beat, is pretty impressive. He's had a couple of interesting scenarios, the Kessel for Kaberle trade that fell apart due to miscommunication over draft picks, Brian Burke aqquiring the necessary pick to sign Kesssl to the offer sheet, informing Chiarelli of his intentions and then adding a first rounder to the equation for whatever reason. The Thomas situation and most recently the Iginla fiasco.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    PC is an unreal trader. picking up boychuk and mcquaid for basically nothing. Seidenberg + for a 2nd, Karsums and Lashoff for Recchi and a 2nd was robbery. 



    Boychuk was acquired for Washington Capital Matt Hendricks.  The 5th round pick for McQuaid was used to select Jamie Benn. (Lucky for Dallas, but I think they're happy about the deal.)


    Don't forget:

    Versteeg for Bochenski

    Manny Fernandez and his contract

    Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Rolston, Mottau, Zanon)

    Peter Schaefer

    #38 and #69 for #35 to draft Cross (LOL)

    Ben Walter and a 2nd for Nokelainen

    Aaron Ward for Patrick Eaves.  Eaves bought out immediately then picked up by Detroit.

    Derek Morris for a 3rd round pick

    Joe Corvo

    Of course no GM could ever be perfect, but Chiarelli has his errors also.  That Eaves deal was miserable.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

     

    Strongly disagree with any negativity going PC's way about hoarding money(unspent cap potential).  That's just never the GM's call.  It's ownership.  We'll never know if he's really had those resouces available or not.

     




    Agree that we'll never know what resources were or were not available, so not really valid to say it's never the GM's call.  Those two points-of-view are somewhat in conflict with one another. 

     

    Neely repeatedly stated in interviews that team expected to be aggressive and exploit the 2012-13 Cap Space they had available.  I would submit that if that was the goal, they fell well short of it.




    Maybe I didn't state things clearly.  I'm just talking about the LTIR money.  Believe JJ has  given his blessing to spend to the cap.  Using Savard's money though, is above that I believe.  That undoubtedly requires another executive decision.  The only absolutes I've stated are that ownership always determines payroll, not the GM.  No conflict there.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

     

    PC is an unreal trader. picking up boychuk and mcquaid for basically nothing. Seidenberg + for a 2nd, Karsums and Lashoff for Recchi and a 2nd was robbery. 

     



     

    Boychuk was acquired for Washington Capital Matt Hendricks.  The 5th round pick for McQuaid was used to select Jamie Benn. (Lucky for Dallas, but I think they're happy about the deal.)


    Don't forget:

    Versteeg for Bochenski

    Manny Fernandez and his contract

    Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Rolston, Mottau, Zanon)

    Peter Schaefer

    #38 and #69 for #35 to draft Cross (LOL)

    Ben Walter and a 2nd for Nokelainen

    Aaron Ward for Patrick Eaves.  Eaves bought out immediately then picked up by Detroit.

    Derek Morris for a 3rd round pick

    Joe Corvo

    Of course no GM could ever be perfect, but Chiarelli has his errors also.  That Eaves deal was miserable.



    Good list.  I would also add Warsofsky for Sobotka.  Hated that trade.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    I haven't seen any articles or reports about Chiarelli's rules for spending, how he can spend, what he can spend, and what he has to ask about.

    Can someone point me in the right direction?

    (I assume the website with this info will also break down Neely's figurehead role as President.)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

     

    In response to stevegm's comment:

     

    Strongly disagree with any negativity going PC's way about hoarding money(unspent cap potential).  That's just never the GM's call.  It's ownership.  We'll never know if he's really had those resouces available or not.

     




    Agree that we'll never know what resources were or were not available, so not really valid to say it's never the GM's call.  Those two points-of-view are somewhat in conflict with one another. 

     

    Neely repeatedly stated in interviews that team expected to be aggressive and exploit the 2012-13 Cap Space they had available.  I would submit that if that was the goal, they fell well short of it.

     




     

    Maybe I didn't state things clearly.  I'm just talking about the LTIR money.  Believe JJ has  given his blessing to spend to the cap.  Using Savard's money though, is above that I believe.  That undoubtedly requires another executive decision.  The only absolutes I've stated are that ownership always determines payroll, not the GM.  No conflict there.



    So fair to be a little critical of being $6M under this year?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    Now this is one hell of a nickname , kills 3 birds with 1 stone.

    Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Rolston, Mottau, Zanon)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

     

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

     

    In response to stevegm's comment:

     

    Strongly disagree with any negativity going PC's way about hoarding money(unspent cap potential).  That's just never the GM's call.  It's ownership.  We'll never know if he's really had those resouces available or not.

     




    Agree that we'll never know what resources were or were not available, so not really valid to say it's never the GM's call.  Those two points-of-view are somewhat in conflict with one another. 

     

    Neely repeatedly stated in interviews that team expected to be aggressive and exploit the 2012-13 Cap Space they had available.  I would submit that if that was the goal, they fell well short of it.

     




     

    Maybe I didn't state things clearly.  I'm just talking about the LTIR money.  Believe JJ has  given his blessing to spend to the cap.  Using Savard's money though, is above that I believe.  That undoubtedly requires another executive decision.  The only absolutes I've stated are that ownership always determines payroll, not the GM.  No conflict there.

     



    So fair to be a little critical of being $6M under this year?

     




    Oh yeah, for sure. 

    I'm just a bit skeptical it's PC's choice.  Assuming there was a player available that he felt would help the team, I can't see "any" GM choosing to pass unless that available money,... wasn't really available.

    We're in overall agreement.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: That bum Chiarelli

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    Oh yeah, for sure. 

    I'm just a bit skeptical it's PC's choice.  Assuming there was a player available that he felt would help the team, I can't see "any" GM choosing to pass unless that available money,... wasn't really available.

    We're in overall agreement.


     
    Thanks for clarifying Steve. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think he's done a good job, B/B+.

     

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