The Chara Question

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    The Chara Question

    This isn't a "trade Chara" thread in the normal sense, because I personally wouldn't dream of moving him in the middle of this perennial Cup-contending run. Still see tremendous value in him, his contract and what he does to make this defense one of the very best in the league. I have zero issues with his game.


     


    It's more.....the decline could be 2 years away. Could be 3, 4 or even more. But it's going to happen, and there's no denying that Chara's value right now is the highest it will ever be.


     


    So what could the Bruins get if they shopped him this off-season, especially to one of the new GMs looking to make a splash?


     


    So without going bonkers....what do you think could be a legitimate return, who would therefore be the #1 D, and is it worth it? Or, looking at other contracts, is there a case to move him next season or the season after?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    You mean his value isn't going to go up, right?  Because I would say there's no question he's in decline, and that decline was apparent last year.  He wasn't nearly as dominant, as unflappable, as unbeatable.  Don't get me wrong; he was still dominant and probably the top shut down D in the league, but there were more lapses, more difficulties with the puck.  You have to cut him some slack because he played with such a young supporting cast from Christmas on, but he wasn't the same as he was during the Cup run or even pre-Finals last year.

    And all that said, I don't know that the Bruins could get enough value out of any deal to make it worth dealing him.  Think about the Bobby Ryan or Ilya Kovalchuk deals, or any of the Pronger deals.  All of these guys were younger, and there was some pressure on the seller, so it more or less evens out as a comparable.

    Ryan was a 1st, a B+ (late first rounder) prospect, and a young roster player who's a 2nd/3rd liner (Silfverberg).  Kovalchuck was a 1st and a 2nd, a young roster player (Bergfors El Busto), a prospect (mid second rounder), and a second pairing defenseman.  These are two of the top goal-scoring wings in the game being dealt in their primes or even before, and basically, you get an NHL player who isn't even going to be in the same tier of your lineup unless something goes spastically right, plus a prospect who might be depth and more if you're really lucky, plus picks which are notoriously hit or miss.  Anaheim got very lucky in having Ottawa falter so badly this year and give up the 10th pick.  Winnipeg has basically nothing to show for dealing Kovalchuk other than Sanford and Lipon, the guys they drafted with the picks they got from Chicago for Oduya.  I suppose Cormier might eventually be a third liner.

    The various Pronger deals are even less encouraging.  Edmonton gave up Brewer, Woywitka and Lynch - basically not more than Brewer.  Maybe...1/3rd of Pronger's value?  Anaheim gave up a bit of a haul in Smid, Lupul, two 1sts and a 2nd.  Lupul never panned out in Edmonton, though, and Smid never really developed.  Eberle was one of the picks, and Travis Hamonic the second rounder, but the Oilers dealt that pick.  The Flyers gave up almost an identical package of Sbisa, Lupul, and two firsts (Etem and John Moore).  Again, Lupul didn't exactly bear out until he got to Toronto, and Sbisa isn't exactly lighting up the world in Anaheim.  In each case here, though, Edmonton and Anaheim seem to have done well with the picks: both got quality forward though Etem hasn't completely broken through yet (next year with Selanne gone?), and both ended up dealing a pick that produced a quality defenseman for a NY team.

    The premise here includes the possiblity of someone on the other side doing something stupid.  Say MacT decides they need an anchor for the D and he'll pay whatever it takes - the 3rd overall pick, Eberle, and Nurse.  Even then...are the Bruins better now if they make that deal?  Probably not.  The D is significantly weaker.  Are they better in the future?  Depends.  Can they get Ekblad with the 3rd pick?  I mean, the answer is clearly "yes" in three years, provided Eberle doesn't get injured, Nurse develops into a top 4 D and the 3rd pick isn't Hack Zamill.

    Long story short: you'll never get enough for Chara to justify moving him.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Chara also played more than his share of minutes with rookies and second year 20 year olds. Maybe his "decline" is just the placing of unrealistic expectations on him? He is nominated for the Norris after all.....

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Chara had series problems with Staal in 2009 but man handled the Gazoo Twins two years later in 2011. If Zdeno doesn't handle the Canookleheads 1st line, i'm the one making "Embellishment City" videos 3 years later while p$$in moaning about Burrow's Daddy.

    Two years from now it does seem to me PC needs to seriously think about grooming someone else. I could not see Z hanging around while his play declines for a paycheck. Zdeno just doesn't seem that way too me.

     

    Playoffs: Reilly Smith > Tyler Seguin

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    You mean his value isn't going to go up, right?  Because I would say there's no question he's in decline, and that decline was apparent last year.  He wasn't nearly as dominant, as unflappable, as unbeatable.  Don't get me wrong; he was still dominant and probably the top shut down D in the league, but there were more lapses, more difficulties with the puck.  You have to cut him some slack because he played with such a young supporting cast from Christmas on, but he wasn't the same as he was during the Cup run or even pre-Finals last year.

    And all that said, I don't know that the Bruins could get enough value out of any deal to make it worth dealing him.  Think about the Bobby Ryan or Ilya Kovalchuk deals, or any of the Pronger deals.  All of these guys were younger, and there was some pressure on the seller, so it more or less evens out as a comparable.

    Ryan was a 1st, a B+ (late first rounder) prospect, and a young roster player who's a 2nd/3rd liner (Silfverberg).  Kovalchuck was a 1st and a 2nd, a young roster player (Bergfors El Busto), a prospect (mid second rounder), and a second pairing defenseman.  These are two of the top goal-scoring wings in the game being dealt in their primes or even before, and basically, you get an NHL player who isn't even going to be in the same tier of your lineup unless something goes spastically right, plus a prospect who might be depth and more if you're really lucky, plus picks which are notoriously hit or miss.  Anaheim got very lucky in having Ottawa falter so badly this year and give up the 10th pick.  Winnipeg has basically nothing to show for dealing Kovalchuk other than Sanford and Lipon, the guys they drafted with the picks they got from Chicago for Oduya.  I suppose Cormier might eventually be a third liner.

    The various Pronger deals are even less encouraging.  Edmonton gave up Brewer, Woywitka and Lynch - basically not more than Brewer.  Maybe...1/3rd of Pronger's value?  Anaheim gave up a bit of a haul in Smid, Lupul, two 1sts and a 2nd.  Lupul never panned out in Edmonton, though, and Smid never really developed.  Eberle was one of the picks, and Travis Hamonic the second rounder, but the Oilers dealt that pick.  The Flyers gave up almost an identical package of Sbisa, Lupul, and two firsts (Etem and John Moore).  Again, Lupul didn't exactly bear out until he got to Toronto, and Sbisa isn't exactly lighting up the world in Anaheim.  In each case here, though, Edmonton and Anaheim seem to have done well with the picks: both got quality forward though Etem hasn't completely broken through yet (next year with Selanne gone?), and both ended up dealing a pick that produced a quality defenseman for a NY team.

    The premise here includes the possiblity of someone on the other side doing something stupid.  Say MacT decides they need an anchor for the D and he'll pay whatever it takes - the 3rd overall pick, Eberle, and Nurse.  Even then...are the Bruins better now if they make that deal?  Probably not.  The D is significantly weaker.  Are they better in the future?  Depends.  Can they get Ekblad with the 3rd pick?  I mean, the answer is clearly "yes" in three years, provided Eberle doesn't get injured, Nurse develops into a top 4 D and the 3rd pick isn't Hack Zamill.

    Long story short: you'll never get enough for Chara to justify moving him.

     Are you not entertained?!?!



    ^^^^This sums it up perfectly. Even at this point the odds of getting better return are negligible.

    The Bruins cart is still firmly attached to this horse (as it should be)...but hey, I'm no Stanley so I'm not privy to the inner workings of the Bruins front office.

    ----proud member of the ZTT taskforce-----

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Chara is still the fencepost upon which the Bruins gate swings,his Norris trophy nomination attesting to this. I agree that any trade of Chara,while at first seeming like a huge haul,would after awhile turn out to be not much after all is said an done. I know this is a fictional debate,but Chara will retire a Bruin and rightly so and i also agree that he will retire rather than let his skills deteriorate to Phaneufian proportions.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    I can easily see him riding out his current contract and that's it...and he'd continue to be valuable to the very last shift. It's amazing how quickly these things go. 2 years ago and he'd net a king's ransom in return. But obviously you don't move him when he was so dominant. Now we're talking like there would be very little coming back and only then if a GM on the other side does something stupid. Crazy.

    Say a team like San Jose or Colorado or Pittsburgh thinks they are a Chara away from a Cup. What they'd have to give to get puts them back to the starting gate. I suppose that's the lesson.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to asmaha's comment:

     Now we're talking like there would be very little coming back and only then if a GM on the other side does something stupid. Crazy.


    I don't think it would be a case of very little coming back,i think it might be a question of what are the B's getting. If its take anything as opposed to losing a diminishing product for nothing,then yes they could get something but the team taking Chara would most likely be a SC contender and would want him to push them over the top.I think the team that gets him might cough up a first round draft pick and a player but the pick would be a late 1st rounder,a crap shoot at best. They would be picking him up knowing that his career is winding down and at the end of his current contract,will retire.Put it this way,i don't think the B's could trade Chara to the Sharts for Logan Couture but maybe for a 1st round draft pick and Matt Nieto? Who knows what a GM would give up if they thought Chara would be the shut down d-man they need.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from btrentor. Show btrentor's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Keep him, get another top 4 D, and reduce his minutes so he won't look tired like he did the past 2 playoffs. Logical way to handle the last few years of a dedicated captain pushing 40 in a young mans game.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:

    Chara had series problems with Staal in 2009 but man handled the Gazoo Twins two years later in 2011. If Zdeno doesn't handle the Canookleheads 1st line, i'm the one making "Embellishment City" videos 3 years later while p$$in moaning about Burrow's Daddy.

    Two years from now it does seem to me PC needs to seriously think about grooming someone else. I could not see Z hanging around while his play declines for a paycheck. Zdeno just doesn't seem that way too me.

     

    Playoffs: Reilly Smith > Tyler Seguin



    Two years from now the preds will be sick of paying weber. They'll think a fun prospect like Subban and second year center Ryan spooner are interesting players. Hopefully 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    I would never get sick of the Bs paying Weber!

     

     

    Playoffs: Reilly Smith > Tyler Seguin

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Im hopeful they use chara in shutdown role only next year along with pk.  I dont want him anywhere near the pp especially in front.  We have guys to do that.  Its been about 3 yrs of me whining about getting him a stud to help.  Hoping its Hamilton. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from seobrien. Show seobrien's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Im hopeful they use chara in shutdown role only next year along with pk.  I dont want him anywhere near the pp especially in front.  We have guys to do that.  Its been about 3 yrs of me whining about getting him a stud to help.  Hoping its Hamilton. 



    Funny Shupe, I was thinking the exact same thing...perhaps being in front of the net on 230 Power Plays is not the smartest way to keep your best player fresh for the playoffs. Put him back at the point (at least during the regular season).

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from days-of-Orr. Show days-of-Orr's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Im hopeful they use chara in shutdown role only next year along with pk.  I dont want him anywhere near the pp especially in front.  We have guys to do that.  Its been about 3 yrs of me whining about getting him a stud to help.  Hoping its Hamilton. 




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    everything Shupe said....

    also try to acquire another top four d-man and start trusting other d-men to go up against the opposition's top forwards....

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sportsnutty. Show Sportsnutty's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Any GM worth their salt would trade anyone on their roster... if the return is high enough. In the case of Zdeno, like others have said, his "return" diminishes by the year.
    With that said, what part of his skill set is diminishing now or in the near future? His size? His shot? His strength? His reach? His knowledge of the game? Its certainly not his speed. I'll keep the big man around for a few more years... keep limiting his minutes (which were his lowest since 2002-2003) and pair him with someone that can consistently hold their own defensively.


    Lets GO BRUINS!!!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to Sportsnutty's comment:

    Any GM worth their salt would trade anyone on their roster... if the return is high enough. In the case of Zdeno, like others have said, his "return" diminishes by the year.
    With that said, what part of his skill set is diminishing now or in the near future? His size? His shot? His strength? His reach? His knowledge of the game? Its certainly not his speed. I'll keep the big man around for a few more years... keep limiting his minutes (which were his lowest since 2002-2003) and pair him with someone that can consistently hold their own defensively.


    Lets GO BRUINS!!!



    Perfectly stated. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from fanonymost. Show fanonymost's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    The question for me is, will the decline be an issue of skill or stamina. Pairing Seidenberg with Hamilton against most top lines and then Chara with either Miller or Boychuk (if he does not get moved as part of deal to get a goal-scorer) could lessen the load on #33 moving forward and still allow him to provide tremendous value as he plays through the back nine. Eliminating regular power-play duties as previously mentioned also seems a wise change. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from goodnewsbears. Show goodnewsbears's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to days-of-Orr's comment:

    everything Shupe said....

    also try to acquire another top four d-man and start trusting other d-men to go up against the opposition's top forwards....



    Who would you take out of the top four if you acquire another top four, Seidenberg, Hamilton or Boychuk?

    ***Enhance Your BDC Experience.  Ignore Marco & Stanley.***

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to fanonymost's comment:

    The question for me is, will the decline be an issue of skill or stamina. Pairing Seidenberg with Hamilton against most top lines and then Chara with either Miller or Boychuk (if he does not get moved as part of deal to get a goal-scorer) could lessen the load on #33 moving forward and still allow him to provide tremendous value as he plays through the back nine. Eliminating regular power-play duties as previously mentioned also seems a wise change. 



    Spoiler alert, he's nit getting moved for a goal scorer

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from days-of-Orr. Show days-of-Orr's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to goodnewsbears' comment:

    In response to days-of-Orr's comment:

    everything Shupe said....

    also try to acquire another top four d-man and start trusting other d-men to go up against the opposition's top forwards....



    Who would you take out of the top four if you acquire another top four, Seidenberg, Hamilton or Boychuk?

    ***Enhance Your BDC Experience.  Ignore Marco & Stanley.***

     




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    Boychuk....

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to goodnewsbears' comment:

    In response to days-of-Orr's comment:

    everything Shupe said....

    also try to acquire another top four d-man and start trusting other d-men to go up against the opposition's top forwards....



    Who would you take out of the top four if you acquire another top four, Seidenberg, Hamilton or Boychuk?

    ***Enhance Your BDC Experience.  Ignore Marco & Stanley.***

     



    Boychuk.  And i love Boychuk.  I dont want a top 4.  I want a top 2.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from goodnewsbears. Show goodnewsbears's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    Days (DOO?) and Shupe, I asked the question expecting Boychuk to be the answer.  I've seen "I'd like another top four" a few times since the Bruins got eliminated.  I see two options if PC decides to get another top four, keep Boychuk or trade him.  If the Bruins keep Boychuk, he becomes your fifth defenseman.  The Bruins can't afford to pay a fifth dman almost 3.4M.  I'm not sure trading Boychuk for another top four really improves the B's.  I like him.  He's good defensively.  He's got a big shot.  His shoulder pads seem to fit just right.  He's a big hitter that can hurt people.  You need that in the playoffs.  If you're looking at a big improvement over Boychuk, then you're looking at a top two.  PC would have to give up too many assets and would have a hard time fitting a top two under the cap.  I think we'll see a huge improvement in Hamilton's game.  Shupe, there's your top two.

    ***Enhance Your BDC Experience.  Ignore Marco & Stanley.***

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Im hopeful they use chara in shutdown role only next year along with pk.  I dont want him anywhere near the pp especially in front.




    Chara led the team in PPG's during the regular season.........tied for the lead with 2 in the playoffs.

    Taking the most productive goal scorer off the PP doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    It does if you think it's worth sacrificing a few PPG (Chara's total minus what another player who could play the net front might have potted) for a better version of Chara in the playoffs - assuming that fatigue was really a problem for him (not his broken hand) and that you agree he hasn't been quite as dominant this year.  I think the PP could be nearly as good with another player planted in front.  We saw both units make a lot of progress on the PP last year, so the addition of netfront Chara wasn't the be all and end all of their improvement.  Krug and Hamilton played a big role, too, as did the chemistry between Soderberg, Eriksson, Bergeron and Smith.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaveyN. Show DaveyN's posts

    Re: The Chara Question

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to goodnewsbears' comment:

    In response to days-of-Orr's comment:

    everything Shupe said....

    also try to acquire another top four d-man and start trusting other d-men to go up against the opposition's top forwards....



    Who would you take out of the top four if you acquire another top four, Seidenberg, Hamilton or Boychuk?

    ***Enhance Your BDC Experience.  Ignore Marco & Stanley.***

     



    Boychuk.  And i love Boychuk.  I dont want a top 4.  I want a top 2.  



    This is exactly how I feel.  I love Boychuk.  But I think if they want to truly upgrade and get a top two, he is the most likely to go.  

     
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