The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    With the Seguin trade being a hot topic right now and for the forseeable future, Grantland (again) put together a full roster of 20 players teams gave up on before they turned 25 who went on to have successful years and careers in the NHL.  You know Chara and Neely are on the team.  Another criteria was these players had to be traded and not future draft picks that were used to obtain star players.  Included are some great old pics of these players in their youth.

    Each position includes some honourable mentions - including Rask in goal.  If there was one player I would have considered for inclusion it would be ex-Leaf captain Rick Vaive who was traded from the Canucks to Toronto in 1980 when he was 21.  He went on to score 441 goals including three 50-plus goal seasons for some pretty crappy Leafs teams in the early '80s.  Any others we can think of?

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/68067/the-all-time-gave-up-too-soon-nhl-team

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Another fun article from them, but I have an issue with a couple of things:

    1.  Neely didn't go on to be a top power forward in the NHL.  He went on to be the first power forward.

    2.  I dislike the inclusion of a few deals because the team that traded the player went on to win the Cup.  Yeah, Dallas traded Iginla early.  Dallas also won the Cup with a lot of help from Joe Nieuwendyk.  Amonte was traded, but NYR won the Cup.  Those aren't bad deals.

    If the B's win the Cup in the next couple of years and Eriksson is a part of it and then Seguin goes on to be the #6 scorer of all time (not going to happen), it's still a good trade for the B's.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Another fun article from them, but I have an issue with a couple of things:

    1.  Neely didn't go on to be a top power forward in the NHL.  He went on to be the first power forward.

    2.  I dislike the inclusion of a few deals because the team that traded the player went on to win the Cup.  Yeah, Dallas traded Iginla early.  Dallas also won the Cup with a lot of help from Joe Nieuwendyk.  Amonte was traded, but NYR won the Cup.  Those aren't bad deals.

    If the B's win the Cup in the next couple of years and Eriksson is a part of it and then Seguin goes on to be the #6 scorer of all time (not going to happen), it's still a good trade for the B's.

     



    I agree with everything except the summary.  I think we need to consider more than Cups.  One player doesn't win or lose them.  I don't think winning a cup in 77 would have made any difference for the Rangers, in those Esposito, and Hodge deals.  The Bruins won that one, because Park, Ratelle, and Middleton had a longer, more proficient body of work than Esposito, Vadnais, and Hodge.  Kaberle is an example going the other way.  The fact that the B's won the cup doesn't make this a great deal, it just glosses it over.

    "Whoever gets the best player wins".  That used to be a philosophy that many agreed with.  I think it still applies, except money has to be tied to it now days, which really convolutes things.  Makes it more interesting too though.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to stevegm's comment:


    I agree with everything except the summary.  I think we need to consider more than Cups.  One player doesn't win or lose them.  I don't think winning a cup in 77 would have made any difference for the Rangers, in those Esposito, and Hodge deals.  The Bruins won that one, because Park, Ratelle, and Middleton had a longer, more proficient body of work than Esposito, Vadnais, and Hodge.  Kaberle is an example going the other way.  The fact that the B's won the cup doesn't make this a great deal, it just glosses it over.

     

    "Whoever gets the best player wins".  That used to be a philosophy that many agreed with.  I think it still applies, except money has to be tied to it now days, which really convolutes things.  Makes it more interesting too though.



    According to this, you believe Calgary "won" the Iginla/Niuwendyk trade? 

    I think that Dallas winning the Cup was worth a lot more than fans watching Iginla score 40 goals and not win the Cup.

    If neither team wins a Cup with effects from a trade, then I agree it's a best player scenario.  What happens if Matteau isn't on that Rangers team?  Amonte was clearly the better player, but there isn't a Rangers fan on Earth that would trade 1994 for a couple of 100 point seasons.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mxt. Show mxt's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team


    The ultimate (and only) goal is to win the Cup. Any trade that helps that happen is a good one.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:


    I agree with everything except the summary.  I think we need to consider more than Cups.  One player doesn't win or lose them.  I don't think winning a cup in 77 would have made any difference for the Rangers, in those Esposito, and Hodge deals.  The Bruins won that one, because Park, Ratelle, and Middleton had a longer, more proficient body of work than Esposito, Vadnais, and Hodge.  Kaberle is an example going the other way.  The fact that the B's won the cup doesn't make this a great deal, it just glosses it over.

     

     

    "Whoever gets the best player wins".  That used to be a philosophy that many agreed with.  I think it still applies, except money has to be tied to it now days, which really convolutes things.  Makes it more interesting too though.

     



    According to this, you believe Calgary "won" the Iginla/Niuwendyk trade? 

     

    I think that Dallas winning the Cup was worth a lot more than fans watching Iginla score 40 goals and not win the Cup.

    If neither team wins a Cup with effects from a trade, then I agree it's a best player scenario.  What happens if Matteau isn't on that Rangers team?  Amonte was clearly the better player, but there isn't a Rangers fan on Earth that would trade 1994 for a couple of 100 point seasons.



    I agree with the "ranger fan" inference, no one wants to trade a few points for a cup, however, I don't think Matteau is the only reason New York won the cup.  He can't take all of the credit, therefore, it's impossible to rate the trade that way.

    Basing the outcome on Cups is just too predictable and simplistic.  If Sean Thorton goes to Edmonton for Nugent-Hopkins, and Edmonton wins the Cup...it's still a steal for the Bruins.  The cup doesn't matter.  

    Just suggesting that it's not a bad idea to instead look individually at the entire body of work, then make the decision.  I had forgot about Bernie Parent being a Bruin.  That's an example that certainly supports the "Cup" argument.  How about Wheeler and Stewart for Peverly though.  I don't think it's fair to just automatically assume that was a winner because Peverly played here when they won the Cup.  I think the best way to objectively look at this one....is to take the whole "Cup business", right out of the equation.  It provides more cloud, than clarity, unless one feels sure that Boston would never have won the cup without him.

    2 different examples, suggesting there are several ways to consider winners and losers in the trade game.   

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichHillOntario. Show RichHillOntario's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Another fun article from them, but I have an issue with a couple of things:

    1.  Neely didn't go on to be a top power forward in the NHL.  He went on to be the first power forward.

    2.  I dislike the inclusion of a few deals because the team that traded the player went on to win the Cup.  Yeah, Dallas traded Iginla early.  Dallas also won the Cup with a lot of help from Joe Nieuwendyk.  Amonte was traded, but NYR won the Cup.  Those aren't bad deals.

    If the B's win the Cup in the next couple of years and Eriksson is a part of it and then Seguin goes on to be the #6 scorer of all time (not going to happen), it's still a good trade for the B's.

     



    What I also like about Grantland is many of their articles are like an amusement park or minefield of pop up windows containing even more information related to the lead piece.  NAS, was Neely the first player for whom that term was used?  I ask only because I recall reading somewhere that Gordie Howe was the first power forward only that term wasn't used to describe him when he played.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Dan Bouchard.  The Bruins kept Eddie Johnson who was terrible and retired after that season.

     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Wait, I thought only the Bruins traded away young, up-coming stars?

    -- Proud user of Chambraigne; Now with Wiener Scent! --

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Yeah, I think there is a difference in "giving up too soon" and and trading a young player you know is good to get an established star and/or other talent and/or cap space to improve your team in other ways.  Dallas knew exactly what they were trading to get Nieuwendyk, they just felt it was worth it because Iginla wasn't ready to be a cup MVP.

    I think to be on this list it should be a team getting nothing of significance/value back for promising talent.  Chara (and the 2nd pick) for Yashin was a decent example.  Seguin may fit the bill eventually, but the Bruins did get an All-Star back in the trade.  It will depend on what the prospects that Boston received are able to do to decide if it was a good trade or just Boston bailing on Seguin too soon.

    You could add Detroit ditching Adam Oates despite a promising start to his career.  Los Angeles ditched Kevin Stevens before giving him a shot.  More recently Vancouver and Florida gave up on Grabner before he potted 34 for the Islanders, though he would hardly make the all-time team.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Big coincidence - both Neely and Seguin were 21 when traded.

    The other day Cam said that Chicago's 2 goals in 17 seconds was a payback from the Hockey Gods for their game 7 herculean win against the Leafs. I hope this is not the Hockey Gods' payback at work again for him coming to Boston in 1985.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to BadHabitude's comment:

    Dan Bouchard.  The Bruins kept Eddie Johnson who was terrible and retired after that season.

     




    If I remember correctly, I think you could only protect one goaler in those expansion drafts of the 70's.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from KMCI. Show KMCI's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Ken Dryden was also a Bruin draftee that hurt.

     

    Cup does not mean a win, Matteau scores 6G 3A in 23GP, So prorate Amonte's 4G 2A in 6gm that playoff year and his numbers 15g 8A would have helped.  Tell that not one Ranger fan would have believed that Amonte would not have helped that cause or better shots at the future playoffs than Matteau's 1 more assist the following year and then gone. You can include Noonan's totals in that trade and it still was a brutal 1 sided play.

    Pev for Wheeler is not comparable, that trade you make every day in that year, Wheels can not top our top 6 and his numbers in the top 9 would drop drastically, now his youth will win out for better career numbers but he was not going to thrive under Cj, I hated to see him go but I loved Pev coming back at that time.

    Seg trade is a dud, no matter how you look at it, you can never say that a win this year is because of his trade, bullshiite.

     

     

    GOAT!!!

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    "too soon" is only an acronym for writers. The real assessment comes from the results of the teams involved. $$ money had a lot to do with the Seguin move as I'm more impressed with the comments on the supporting potentials in Morrow, Fraser, and O'Rielly; and equally aware that There were frequent "talks" with Seguin about maturity and commitment that, it appears, he ignored without any concern for the bruins cap $$. The recent reports on comments from his parents indicate that they felt he " deserved' big bucks rather than earning with full maturity and commitment.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011. Show StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    The seguin trade : I have a funny feeling that Ericksson will have a few outstanding seasons with the Bruins and that Joe Morrow will become a top 4 d's soon enough ...not counting Fraser that could aslo be a surprise...we will revisit this trade in 5 years from now and see....

     Stanley Cup to the BRUINS in 2011 & 4 more Cups by 2020

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to KMCI's comment:

    Ken Dryden was also a Bruin draftee that hurt.

     

    Cup does not mean a win, Matteau scores 6G 3A in 23GP, So prorate Amonte's 4G 2A in 6gm that playoff year and his numbers 15g 8A would have helped.  Tell that not one Ranger fan would have believed that Amonte would not have helped that cause or better shots at the future playoffs than Matteau's 1 more assist the following year and then gone. You can include Noonan's totals in that trade and it still was a brutal 1 sided play.

     



    Just because Amonte had a more prosperous career, it doesn't mean the Rags would have also won the Cup with him or again any time soon.

    Too much goes into a Cup victory.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    I love that the Bruins have a few "given up on too soon" guys on the roster now.  Rask would probably qualify even though the Leafs didn' exactly 'give up' in trading him for a goalie talent they thought was as good or better.  

    But Boychuk and Paille come to mind as guys who were truly given up on by their previous teams (Colorado, Buffalo) and acquired for almost nothing.  If Soderberg ever amounts to anything, he'll certainly be in that category too.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Yikes, agreeing with NAS once more.  OatesCam has a couple more to add to the list.  If I were truly assessing the Seguin trade, one I would have to have a crystal ball and a psychologist for Seguin to make judgement.  I still adhere to the theory the Bs are looking a five year window of opportunity and Eriksson was a better bet with the current core of 25 something players.  Lastly the only way I can say the list correct on the "All time gave up too soon team" would be to contrast that list with the "All time glad we got rid of the paper tiger team".  Hello Cam Barker! Then the list is long!

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Yeah, the whole "who won the trade" thing is a little silly, though, if you're a team, a GM.

    It's like the conversations we have around here where the Bruins win hockey games and some people worry that the other team had more hits.  In the end, the Bruins win the stat that really matters.  The more I've thought about this in recent years, the more I've come to believe that the real measure of a trade is is the team better off now than before the deal.  That's not as simple to decide as it sounds partly because of the point steve makes that we'd probably all agree is true: it's almost impossible to assign a team success to one player (not even Butch Goring).  Hockey's the ultimate team sport, so this is particularly true in hockey.

    Take the Oates/Tocchet/Ranford, Thornton, Kessel and Seguin deals. 

    O/T/R - Oates was still the best player at the time.  Ranford was a better goalie than Carrey even then.  The Bruins tailspun to the first overall pick after this deal.  They made the playoffs the following year thanks largely to Allison performing like a #1C, though.  They got JT in the draft and got better quickly due to a transfusion of youth. Who wins that trade?  Caps went to the finals the following year, and Kolzig was their clear #1 with Carrey and the headache out of the way.  Bruins went from zero to playoffs in one year.  Does it matter who "won?"

    JT - Sharks got the best player.  Bruins managed to make the most of the return by dealing Stuart for Ference and Kobasew, then Kobasew for a 2nd rounder.  Sharks have won nothing. Ference was a key player in the Cup run.  And the move opened the door for the Bruins to clear a ton of room in the new Cap world to sign Chara and Savard.  The move made the Bruins much, much better - just not in a way that you can say they won the trade.  Does that matter?

    Kessel - Leafs got the best player because he was the only player.  Four years later, he's still the best player.  That hurts to write.  But the move made the Bruins bettter because it meant keeping Krejci, making the move to get Horton, and drafting 2 or maybe 3 exciting young players.  And Horton and Krejci were instrumental to winning a Cup.  So who cares what Kessel does, ever?

    If you want to hedge a bit, call Seguin for Eriksson a wash - neither team got the best player, but the Stars got the best of superstar potential.  On the other hand, the difference between teh salary for Eriksson and the salary for Seguin (not including bonuses) is roughly what they committed to Iginla in regular salary.  It looks like the Bruins will have the best second line in the league with Eriksson - a great two-way line that will light you up if you try to cheat to generate offense against them.  Iginla is a terrific alternative to Horton on the DK line.  And the move cleared additional salary and brought a few senior prospects with some NHL experience into the organization.  I think Chiarelli made the team better with taht deal, so I'm not going to worry if Seguin makes a bigger difference for the Stars than Eriksson does for the Bruins.  The team is better.  It will be measured by how many games it wins in the playoffs next year (2 more than this year!) not whether or not Eriksson is a better player than Seguin. 

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    I would absolutely include Rask, Fletch, but wouldn't include Paille.

    The Sabres got a second round pick for a future fourth line player.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    So who cares what Kessel does, ever?



    This is my point of view when it comes to this latest deal.  People are suggesting that the B's will regret the deal if Seguin XYZs in the future.  If the B's win the Cup with Eriksson and the rest of the team that starts this season (Rask's money is a direct result of that deal), why would I ever care if Seguin scores 50 in Dallas?  Good for him, good for the Bruins.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from KMCI. Show KMCI's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    A cup win to a trade are apples and oranges, unless there is absolutely no other roster changes and that is nigh impossible.

    This year Hort Fer Seg Jag Daug Khudo out    and    Igin Erics Smith Fraser Morrow Johnson in, and that is just what we see at this point.

    Trades can be key but they cannot only be evaluated by wins or losses.

    Seg trade is a loss, but a cup win can still be in the balance.

     

    Nas-It also does not mean that they would not have won with Amonte, he was already better than Matteau and Noonan and he remained better than both.

     

     

    GOAT!!!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Amonte and Matteau/Noonan aren't comparable in terms of what they brought to the table.  Amonte was a speed and skill perimeter guy with a good shot.  Matteau and Noonan scored goals from within 5ft of the crease or they didn't score.  The Rangers won because they got a lot of clutch goals within that range, and I doubt Amonte would have scored them.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    I would absolutely include Rask, Fletch, but wouldn't include Paille.

    The Sabres got a second round pick for a future fourth line player.



    That's a fair point.  I include Paille because it did seem like the Sabres gave up on him, even though they got something useful in return.  He was such a high pick with high expectations and then was frequently a healthy scratch before he was dealt.  I think Buffalo had largely given up but was still able to wrangle a 2nd rounder because of his pedigree.  Once you have good scoring in your top 2 or 3 lines, Paille becomes very useful in his role, which the Bruins have shown in (sort of) resurrecting his career.  I suspect that the Sabres always wanted him to be more than that and threw in the towel when he wasn't.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: The NHL's All-Time Gave Up Too Soon Team

    Kinda annoying, to be honest. Why does a trade have to be winners and losers? The Dallas/Calgary is a good example of a mutually-beneficial trade. One gets short-term gain, the other long-term.

    It's "everyone gets a trophy day"!

     
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