The Prodigal!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    Oh boo hoo Seguin can't play in the A.  Let's re-design the whole system that takes about thirty different economic and organizaitional factors into consideration because teams can't just pluck a kid off a junior roster as soon as he turns 18 without making a commitment to him.  You know who that would benefit?  Maybe - just maybe - 3 players a year and ECHL ticket holders.  Teams would take their top picks of any stripe out of the CHL and send them to a minor league team where they're paying the coach.  Not just the Seguins and Gudbransons either - probably every kid in the first two rounds.  The only reason they would hold off is to protect years of EL eligibility.

    Meanwhile, Jr. hockey teams are businesses.  Their response to a raid on their talent pool would probably be a legally binding contract.  They already pay these kids a stipend, and some of them get cars and other perks.  It's not a lot of money for most, but for some?  More.  They already have a high turnover of players, making it difficult for fans to grow attached to stars, so their economic lives depend in part on not letting the cycle accelerate.  If the economics of the CHL go sour, where do you think top players should develop when they're 16, 17, 18 but undrafted?  Think it would have been peachy for Seguin - a kid who was clearly talented but not a $3.75M player when he went to Junior - if he hadn't had two years of CHL experience?  Think the jump from Midget to the ECHL would be a better plan?

    Seggy Stardust will be just fine.  He's no worse off learning by playing limited NHL minutes than big AHL minutes.  This is a kid who everyone agreed is mature enough to live on his own as a rookie.  Crosby billeted with Mario for half a decade.  I'm pretty sure he will harness his emotions and find his confidence as he learns.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    how does he grow in a league he can't play in right now? he's shown he handles adversity well? nrguy do you watch the games?he doesn't deserve more than 6 mins. a game- and how is 6 mins. a game helping him develop? this kid is not owed anything because he's a 2nd pick overall. he's physically immature as well as emotionally if everyone is worried about his confidence. confidence comes from within- not externally. believe me... he will be very good someday, sucess breeds sucess. put him in a situation where he will suceed, and watch his confidence grow. getting pushed around for 6 minutes a nite does nothing for his development or his confidence-the answer is not to give him MORE minutes, its to put him where he can suceed and build confidence and muscle 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Prodigal! : It would seriously damage the talent level of the CHL if every 1st rounder consistently left for the AHL after being drafted.It's hard enough on the talent pool when the players like Crosby,Stamkos,Tavares,Hall ,Seguin,etc leave as 18 year olds to start their pro career.Imagine how bad it would get if the next tier of players also bolted for the AHL at the same time. Instead of the 5 or 10 best players leaving,it would become the top 30 or 40 players.CHL owners need to sell tickets too.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]


    I suppose this is correct. It may actually hurt future development by making CHL less competitive by removing so many players each year, thus stunting other players development(because they will be facing inferior competition)...

    This still doesnt address the fact that every year players like Seguin and Gudbranson have to face overly tough decisions. In seguins case keeping him up but reducing playing time and in Gudbransons case getting sent back to juniors. Both of them could've used time in the A but I guess thats what happens.

    Anyways what do I know im just a dumb american lol.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    how exactly does it hurt the chl?if players are moving up to the nhl/ahl...then it only stands to reason that players previously deemed ahl/nhl ready would be headed down when they arrive to take their place. there is no void there. some players move up, some players move down. of the chl wants to see great hockey...go to an nhl game-  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]how exactly does it hurt the chl?if players are moving up to the nhl/ahl...then it only stands to reason that players previously deemed ahl/nhl ready would be headed down when they arrive to take their place. there is no void there. some players move up, some players move down. of the chl wants to see great hockey...go to an nhl game-  
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
    The CHL is widely considered the worlds best developmental league for the NHL.I'm not sure why you would think replacing a Stamkos(for example) with an up and coming 15 or 16 year old wouldn't be bad for the league overall.If you think Seguin is having trouble adjusting now,imagine if the CHL was essentially 18 year olds and younger.The jump between leagues would be even more extreme.As frustrated as you may be with Seguins situation right now,I still think the current agreement between the leagues is the right way to go.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    What I would like to see (and it admittedly may not be possible) is that players like Seguin who stay in the NHL for their 9 games and can no longer be sent back to junior, can THEN be dealt with by the pro team as they wish.  That way you wouldn't have anyone leaving the junior ranks unless and NHL team truly wanted to commit 10 games and the $$ to the kid, like it is now.  No going straight to the AHL.  But after that time, the player would be treated like any other entry level guy and could be sent to the AHL during the course of the season.  Maybe that would still result in a couple more kids getting pulled from junior, but the NHL teams (who pay the bills) would not be handcuffed by kids they have under contract.  Seguin would clearly benefit from playing 20 minutes a night in Providence for a stint, it would also benefit the Bruins, and it doesn't affect he junior team at all because he's gone either way (if he's good enough to earn the contract).  That would seem to be a better scenario for everyone.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    dez....we agree to disagree- the nhl is not a developmental league -its for the best pro's the world- if the kid needs further development send him where he can get it...don't punish him for the chl owners sake
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]dez....we agree to disagree- the nhl is not a developmental league -its for the best pro's the world- if the kid needs further development send him where he can get it...don't punish him for the chl owners sake
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
    Like I said,agree or not,but the system has been working for years now.It's in the NHL's best interests to keep the talent level high in the CHL.As it stands now,the AHL is the best place to see future NHL players.The CHL is the best place to see future NHL stars.This setup isn't simply to protect the owners in the CHL .It's also to protect the NHL's interests  as far as player development goes.As it stands right now,the CHL is far more entertaining hockey than the AHL.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    talent is talent and the cream always rises to the top
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]talent is talent and the cream always rises to the top
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
    Can't argue with that logic.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    all that being said - lets hope the boys skate hard tonite, and seguin puts oone in the basket- go b's..... tuukka start tonite? any word
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]all that being said - lets hope the boys skate hard tonite, and seguin puts oone in the basket- go b's..... tuukka start tonite? any word
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
    Yeah,a good game by Seguin tonight could turn this into a moot point.Getting him away from Ryder and Wheeler would be a good first step.We shouldn't have a full line of guys that avoid finishing checks.Ryder and Wheeler have shown flashes of an all-around game this year but their inconsistency is the last thing I want to see rubbed off on Seguin.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    adk, use a bit of your brain to understand what I said. I didn't say he deserves more minutes, I'm saying this current poor play and being benched will motivate him to get better not make him shell up. You're right, he's not playing that much in games but do you think CJ is benching him in practices, that's where he's learning. Everyone is overlooking the fact that these guys actually practice and Segs is learning there as well.

    Players do develop in the NHL, just not overnight. What more would he have learned from juniors? I think he's learning how to play D, but the class isn't over yet and he needs some studying.

    And you're right about another thing, he doesn't deserve anything, like minutes in a tight game. He does deserve to be in the AHL though.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    The system is Ok, and Fletch's proposal certainly has merit. My view of Seguin is that he is being "OVER_coached" by Claude's helpers. He tries to follow their dictates and it eliminates any of the natural sponteneity that made him such a quality Junior. His qualities also stood out in pre-camp where he "MADE" the NHL roster. The changes in his instinctiveness comes directly from Claude and Goeff Ward. They need to put him on the wing with the same two players and allow him to play his game more with out the DEFENSIVE choke hold when he plays center. Certainly NHL men are slamming him physically, but, he hasn't complained Claude and Goeff Ward are NOT developmental coaches so the kid has had less than an even chance to perform
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    And yes, I watch every game you combative twit.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]all that being said - lets hope the boys skate hard tonite, and seguin puts oone in the basket- go b's..... tuukka start tonite? any word
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
    NESN reporting Rask as tonight's starter.Hope he has a strong game as I am growing weary of the constant  TT vs Rask debate.As long as we win,I'm happy enough with the goaltending.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    it really is an embarrassment of riches...tuukka's going to be brilliant tonite(power of positive thought)- then we can read tommorrow how there is a goalie controversy!!!! 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Prodigal! :Getting him away from Ryder and Wheeler would be a good first step.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]


    Amen to that Dez. I CANNOT STAND watching Wheeler look off seguin, then losing the puck. Or glyder gliding behind the play while Tyler gets a real good look at a 1 on 4 break.(Resulting in a 60ft wrist shot).

    Bergeron would be the perfect spot for him to build Chemistry but I think Marchand, Recchi and all B's fans would have a lot to say about splitting up that line.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    Fletch - the Bruins could still send Seguin to Plymouth if they wanted to, but they would still count this as a year of his EL contract.  What they can't do is send him to Plymouth and then recall him.  Once he's there, there he is.  So - your proposal doesn't really change much except put a pretty minor hurdle in the way.  Consider that the players most likely to be affected here are the same guys who get a 9 game audition before returning their Jr. clubs.

    adk - none of these leagues exist for individual players, and there's a huge difference between something not being ideal and "punishing" the kid.  He's no more entitled to play in "the best situation for him to develop" than he is to play in the NHL.  He's Bruins property.  His job is to play to the best of his ability wherever the Bruins ask him to play, and to keep trying to get better.  It's up to the Bruins to decide where they think he'll have the best chance to help the franchise, and at the beginning of the year they decided that he was better off as a third/fourth liner in Boston than in Plymouth.  Would he have been better off it the AHL if that was an option?  Frankly, I doubt it.  The only difference is that his "seasoning" wouldn't impact the NHL club.  Caron was playing as well as Seguin over the first 20 games, and he hasn't gone down and blown away the A. 

    Also remember that Seguin would still be playing against men in the A, and it would be no better for the organization to give him the #1 C spot in Providence than to give him a spot in Boston.  He'd have to outperform Hamill and Colborne, and imagine how you'd feel if Hamill, with more experience in the A, and Colborne, with two more years of physical strength, pushed Seguin to the third line in the AHL?

    As for the impact on the CHL - you seem to see this as one big system and not what it really is: a number of business sharing the same talent pool.  If the NHL tried to opt out of the current agreement, I think you'd see Hockey Canada imitating the Russian Ice Hockey Federation and challenging junior player movement in the courts.  Imagine the impact of having Canadian players under the same cloud at the draft as Russian players have been?  How is that good for the game or any of the players?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]Fletch - the Bruins could still send Seguin to Plymouth if they wanted to, but they would still count this as a year of his EL contract.  What they can't do is send him to Plymouth and then recall him.  Once he's there, there he is.  So - your proposal doesn't really change much except put a pretty minor hurdle in the way.  Consider that the players most likely to be affected here are the same guys who get a 9 game audition before returning their Jr. clubs.

    Yes, that's right, but my proposal doesn't have anything to do with the junior option really (can't see anyone getting returned to junior mid-season, while the NHL team uses up an EL year). 

    What the proposal does is open up the AHL option for players like Seguin, without opening the door for NHL to cherrypick any junior players they would prefer to see in the AHL.  Only players like Seguin would be affected, where the kid makes the team, leaves junior, gets paid in his EL deal, but then during the season could use a seasoning or conditioning stint in the AHL.

    Seguin ain't going back to junior, period.  So his case doesn't really affect Plymouth at all.  So, why not have the same options with him mid-season that you have with Marchand or Caron?  I think you'd have a better scenario for all parties involved.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    Fletch, I said it earlier and I'll say it again, your concept has merit. I'll also ask everyone, do you think Seguin's game si regressing because of Seguin or because of the restrictions dictated by the coaching staff??
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    But Fletch, that's exactly why your proposal doesn't change anything: you're not looking at it from the CHL perspective.  (Incidentally, teams do occasionally send players back to Jr. after keeping them for more than 10 games - when it's clear they made a mistake.)

    Unless you added some sort of provision to the effect that first year draftees could only play in the AHL on conditioning or rehab stints totalling no more than 20 games (or something to that effect), you'd still have teams willing to give a guy an audition just long enough to buy the right to send him to the A.  Probably for every first round pick. It would be worth it for marketing purposes alone - come see the new kid in October before we bury him in the minors to make a man of him.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]Fletch, I said it earlier and I'll say it again, your concept has merit. I'll also ask everyone, do you think Seguin's game si regressing because of Seguin or because of the restrictions dictated by the coaching staff??
    Posted by bogie6[/QUOTE]

    Thanks bogie.  That is a tough question because there is an element of the chicken and the egg...

    I am getting tired of sticking up for Seguin all around -- he needs to play better.  However it seems like an awful lot of transition for an 18-year old, where if he doesn't get off to a good start, then the confidence is bound to be affected.  I really do feel bad for him in some ways.  I wonder if he would have been better off living with one of the veterans for a year instead of living alone in a new city at his age.

    I think it is a combination of fragile confidence hurting his play and Julien taking a hard line on having all ice time be earned and deserved.  The physical part seems most concerning -- he seems desperately afraid of being hit.  I think he needs to let go a bit, takes hits, give hits and try to be creative.  Marchand gets hit a lot but it hasn't stopped him from carrying the puck or playing with confidence.  In many ways Marchand needs to be a model for Seguin, even though he is technically a rookie too.

    I think the short answer is, both.  Who knows...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    bogie - Seguin.  This happens to many first-year rooks - Tavares went through a soul-crusher of a slump.  We even saw it with Wheeler in his first year too - great first half then K-rash - and he was older.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The Prodigal!

    In Response to Re: The Prodigal!:
    [QUOTE]But Fletch, that's exactly why your proposal doesn't change anything: you're not looking at it from the CHL perspective.  (Incidentally, teams do occasionally send players back to Jr. after keeping them for more than 10 games - when it's clear they made a mistake.) Unless you added some sort of provision to the effect that first year draftees could only play in the AHL on conditioning or rehab stints totalling no more than 20 games (or something to that effect), you'd still have teams willing to give a guy an audition just long enough to buy the right to send him to the A.  Probably for every first round pick. It would be worth it for marketing purposes alone - come see the new kid in October before we bury him in the minors to make a man of him.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    ^ That's exactly what you should have.  I don't think a lot of NHL teams want to spend significant NHL playing time or NHL money in the EL deal, on a guy that wouldn't otherwise make the team and would be just as well served in junior.  This would be for the Seguin types are are destined to leave junior either way, but it gives the NHL club a bit more flexibility as the season drags on.

    If the fear was that NHL teams would grab their top five picks from junior (like Knight, Spooner, ect.) just to plant them in the AHL, this would completely change that scenario and make that an unattractive option.  Why waste NHL playing time, salary cap room, and a year of EL deal on having Jared Knight in the AHL for half a season??  They wouldn't do it.

     
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