The Realistic Move

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    The Realistic Move

    Now that we have gotten the obligatory Parise, Nash, Iginla threads out of the way, what does everyone think the Bruins should do to tweak the team? It is most likely that DK, Lucic, Horton, PB, Marchand and Seguin will return as the league's second-most productive top-6 forwards.  How do the Bruins improve their third and fourth lines? Thornton, Peverley and Caron are assumed back. Do they trade for a wing? Do they resign Kelly? Do they sign another free agent? Move Peverley to center? Bring back Pouliot?

    On the back end I'll assume Hamiliton will make the team, Chiarelli has implied as much. Do they bring in someone else? Resign Zanon?

    The goaltending situation has plenty of threads already on its own, I'm leaving that out.

    I'm curious as to anyone's realistic suggestions, but please leave out the signing of any free agent/trade that would cost more than 7mil. Also please leave out the trading of Krejci (seems like every suggestion starts there) or Lucic (he was not invisible in the playoffs if you actually watched the games) as they are awesome players with reasonable cap hits and Chiarelli isn't messing with his core.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mannyortez3424. Show mannyortez3424's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    I honestly don't think it is such a pipe dream to make a run at Parise...

    He's a perfect fit and PC has cap space...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Note that Boston's current cap space for next season is $5.2 Million.  This includes Krug (1.7) but not Hamilton(1.5-3.5). It does not include the allowance for Savard's(4.0) status. It includes Khubodin but not Rask.  Signed are 9 forwards, 6 D and 2 goalers. NHL minimum salary is 525k.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mannyortez3424. Show mannyortez3424's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    I can't imagine Krug signed a one-way deal right?

    That would be stupid...

    But if not, you add Krug's 1.7 by sending him down and Savvy's 4 and that 9.9 mil without Dougie right there...

    Plus, if you get into the trade Timmy debate, you could be looking at 14.9 mil in cap space...

    I'm not saying it's likely, but it definitely seems like a possibility...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    There already plenty of fantasy discussions on this board about what the Bruins could do in a magical world, so that's the place for those thoughts. I've thrown comments on those threads, but I would rather some more serious talk. Realistically, PC has said he intends, at least for now, to keep Thomas and Rask. He said he wants to keep his core. He said there is a good chance Hamilton makes the team. So in the most likely real world scenario, the Bruins are looking to tweak their 3rd and 4th lines and 6-7th D. There are lots of smart hockey people on this board, I'm looking for their thoughts on what the Bruins could do.

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    I can't imagine Krug signed a one-way deal right? That would be stupid... But if not, you add Krug's 1.7 by sending him down and Savvy's 4 and that 9.9 mil without Dougie right there... Plus, if you get into the trade Timmy debate, you could be looking at 14.9 mil in cap space... I'm not saying it's likely, but it definitely seems like a possibility...
    Posted by mannyortez3424

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    This is somewhat difficult to answer without first having a discussion about projected cap space:

    http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=5

    So the B's have roughly $5.3 million in cap space to get 2 forwards and a depth dman (I am counting Krugs cap hit since as PC stated he expects either Hamilton or Krug to make the team so this salary stays). Take out Khudobin's salary and the cap space rises to roughly $6.3 million but now a backup goalie is needed. Further, assuming PC puts Savard on LTIR (comething he did not do last year by the way) and now there is around $ 10.4 million for 3 forwards, one depth d man and a backup goaltender.

    Now, on the presumption that PC wants to keep Rask he will likely cost an average $3million per season which leaves $7.3 million for 3 forwards and one  depth Dman. Plus, PC will want to save a million to two for seasonal roster moves. In short, no way PC signs any named player without having to move someone.

    Since this thread is not about trades or fantasy pickups we have to presume PC intends to keep everyone already on the books. Tough to do.  Kelly is gone ( he will likely get Joel Ward money from someone) so probably the best PC can do with the current roster is sign a couple of stop-gap players or cheap plugs and hope some rookies or prospects have a good camp. Then at the trade deadline, when everyone is half price, PC will load up on players going into free agency in the offseason who have something to play for.

    Sound familiar? This is PC's m.o. and probably what he will do again.  No silver bullet to be found.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    "so probably the best PC can do with the current roster is sign a couple of stop-gap players or cheap plugs and hope some rookies or prospects have a good camp. Then at the trade deadline, when everyone is half price, PC will load up on players going into free agency in the offseason who have something to play for."

    PC has to do this because the summer of 2013 UFA and RFAs are more important to the clubs long term structure. Look for a veteran defensman and forward to be given tryout invites in September.

    Five or six young forwards battling for two or three bottom 6 spots depending what PC decides on Paille. This falls camp will be one of the most important in Chiarelli's career in Boston as far as him finally transforming some draft picks into NHLers.

    It's easier for PC project entry level contracts meaning something to him when trying to figure what he will eventually do with Seguin, Marchand, Lucic and Ference's contracts.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Zanon could be back as the 7th D or possibly Krug is in the mix. If Hamilton makes the team you have your 7 D as:
    Chara Seidenberg
    Ference Boychuk
    Hamilton McQuaid
    Zanon or Krug

    I'm starting to feel like Kelly may be gone. You don't even hear the obligatory "we're working on a deal, we're getting closer all the time and both sides are confident we'll get it done" sound bite. Or maybe I've missed it. If Caron replaces kelly I think your team has taken a step backwards. I'm assuming Pouliot is out. So you have possibly 2 roster spots that could be filled by prospects but somebody would have to come in and blow away the coach and GM to make this team (Spooner? Khoklachev?) - Or they sign a FA. Thin crop for high-end talent who will be overpaid, but not too bad for 3rd and 4th line guys.

    Trade possibilities? Who knows. I think PC has the stones to pull the trigger on trading anyone on his team for the right price. DK, TT, Rask? Chara is almost untradeable as is Seguin and possibly Lucic. Beyond that anyone is easily tradebait for the right deal. Oh, except Thornton for some reason. I suspect he saw PC kill a man in the alley behind North Station, has photos and has threatened to go to the coppers if PC trades him or lets his deal run out.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Heading the article here in the Boston Globe the headline reads "Bruins need to add more depth into their lines"

    The article is more interesting on what it's not saying, than what it is saying. The Globe speculates that if PC were to move TT he would be aforded with more cap space, if he were to go and sign a offensive player. But in the article I read a line were it would seem that PC wants to keep both goalies.

    In this article, PC looks like he will start to look at his 3 and 4th lines. He has Thorton under contract but not Campbell or Pallie. Pouliot is a restricted free agent. Jordon is signed.

    What I gather is : I think PC will tweek the bottom 3 & 4 lines. I think he wants to keep both goalies and see who is on the market that is big and strong and goes for around a 1mill contract. 

    He dosen't talk about his defencemen. He dosen't talk about speculating if the young kids coming up will have an impact on the club. Also. He dosen't mention special teams when he mentioned more goal production from the bottom 2 lines, ie : PP ?

    I would say. Expect to see Pallie gone. Rolston not resigned and a new #3 or #4 forward or two. Someone who floats in around the 1 mill contract. I also would say, don't expect any big high priced signing ( quote "the free agent market is thin this year").

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Capgeek is sooooo much fun. These are lines and reasonable salaries that would make me happy. Looking for prototypical Bruins hockey and PC's drive to get more guys who can "lean" on the opponent in the playoffs. Enjoy...

    Milan Lucic ($4.083m) / Tyler Seguin ($3.550m) / Nathan Horton ($4.000m)

    Rich Peverley ($3.250m) / Patrice Bergeron ($5.000m) / Mike Knuble ($2.000m)

    Brad Marchand ($2.500m) / David Krejci ($5.250m) / Benoit Pouliot ($1.600m)

    Shawn Thornton ($1.100m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.300m) / Jordan Caron ($1.100m)

    Zdeno Chara ($6.917m) / Johnny Boychuk ($3.367m)

    Dennis Seidenberg ($3.250m) / Dougie Hamilton ($1.525m)

    Andrew Ference ($2.250m) / Adam McQuaid ($1.567m)

    Tim Thomas ($5.000m) / Tuukka Rask ($3.000m)

    BUYOUTS
    Patrick Eaves ($0.258m) ------

    SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,866,666; BONUSES: $3,587,500CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,433,334
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    I think Mike Knuble is washed up, but I like where you're going with this. You're proposing breaking up the top-6 and signing a decent, large wing and center. I think that might have worked well against the caps. Since we already have Peverley it is possible to make 3 scoring lines, and that is when the Bruins are at their best. I wonder how Caron-Seguin-Peverley would play as a line...that would give 3rd pairings a nightmare!

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    Capgeek is sooooo much fun. These are lines and reasonable salaries that would make me happy. Looking for prototypical Bruins hockey and PC's drive to get more guys who can "lean" on the opponent in the playoffs. Enjoy... Milan Lucic ($4.083m) / Tyler Seguin ($3.550m) / Nathan Horton ($4.000m) Rich Peverley ($3.250m) / Patrice Bergeron ($5.000m) / Mike Knuble ($2.000m) Brad Marchand ($2.500m) / David Krejci ($5.250m) / Benoit Pouliot ($1.600m) Shawn Thornton ($1.100m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.300m) / Jordan Caron ($1.100m) Zdeno Chara ($6.917m) / Johnny Boychuk ($3.367m) Dennis Seidenberg ($3.250m) / Dougie Hamilton ($1.525m) Andrew Ference ($2.250m) / Adam McQuaid ($1.567m) Tim Thomas ($5.000m) / Tuukka Rask ($3.000m) BUYOUTS Patrick Eaves ($0.258m) ------ SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,866,666; BONUSES: $3,587,500 CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,433,334
    Posted by asmaha
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    "so probably the best PC can do with the current roster is sign a couple of stop-gap players or cheap plugs and hope some rookies or prospects have a good camp . Then at the trade deadline, when everyone is half price, PC will load up on players going into free agency in the offseason who have something to play for." PC has to do this because the summer of 2013 UFA and RFAs are more important to the clubs long term structure. Look for a veteran defensman and forward to be given tryout invites in September. Five or six young forwards battling for two or three bottom 6 spots depending what PC decides on Paille. This falls camp will be one of the most important in Chiarelli's career in Boston as far as him finally transforming some draft picks into NHLers. It's easier for PC project entry level contracts meaning something to him when trying to figure what he will eventually do with Seguin, Marchand, Lucic and Ference's contracts.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    Exactly. This is not a bad scenario in my opinion anyway. Having some hungry young guys fighting some vets with something to prove for a couple of roster spots is good for the team. I do, however, get the feeling that we have seen the last of Paille, Campbell, and Kelly. Maybe even Pouliot too (even though he is an RFA).

    It is time, as you say, for the prospects (especialy those in Providence) to prove their worth or move on, like Hamill and Arniel for instance.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move : Exactly. This is not a bad scenario in my opinion anyway. Having some hungy young guys fighting some vets with something to prove for a couple of roster spots is good for the team. I do, however, get the feeling that we have seen the last of Paille, Campbell, and Kelly. Maybe even Pouliot too (even though he is an RFA). It is time, as you say, for the prospects (especialy those in Providence) to prove their worth or move on, like Hamill and Arniel for instance.
    Posted by jmwalters


    I don't think anything in Providence is going to make an impact on the big club. There could always be somebody who surprises in camp/preseason much like Bergeron and Lucic did making the jump from juniors. Spooner (although he played late season in Prov.) or Knight or somebody like that is more of a possibility to me than Hamil, Arniel, Sauve, etc. Even more likely is a FA pickup IMO.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move : I don't think anything in Providence is going to make an impact on the big club. There could always be somebody who surprises in camp/preseason much like Bergeron and Lucic did making the jump from juniors. Spooner (although he played late season in Prov.) or Knight or somebody like that is more of a possibility to me than Hamil, Arniel, Sauve, etc. Even more likely is a FA pickup IMO.
    Posted by WalkTheLine


    you are quite right in that there is likely no one in Providence that will make an impact but the B's core is already in place so what the team needs are a couple of 4rth liners who can play a capable regular shift (cheaply) to replace the likes of Paille and Campbell. At least in the short term until the Spooners and Knights are ready or PC can make some mid-season depth acquisitions. This is what I mean when I say it is time for them to prove they can play in the NHL. If not, then yes some cheap FA pickups may be in order.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    I don't think PC is likely to sign much of anything from the free agent market and I still think that dealing Thomas is much more likely than a big free agent splash, So, sorry Oates, but I think that is the realistic move to discuss.  I think Chicago is the most likely destination.  I think Leddy, Stalberg, or Jimmy Hayes are possible guys to look for in return, and maybe a draft pick.

    As far as depth forward or depth defensmen, I think they will look within.  Caron is ready to play full-time on the 3rd line and then you can take a hard look at Sauve, Camper, Spooner, etc. in camp.

    Same on D.  I don't see much reason to try to sign depth guys until Hamilton, Krug, Miller, etc. prove that they are NOT useful depth guys.

    It could be a boring summer of non-moves.  I say a trade of Thomas or possibly Krejci is more likely than a big free agent signing.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    While every is fighting over Parise, PC will sign David Jones from the Avalanche to a reasonable deal around 3 million per year.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from boborielly224. Show boborielly224's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    The Goalie Scenario Thomas and Kudo so far this a goalie tandem already signed  Rask is not but is RFA possibility that Rask will be traded 50/50.

    1st line Looch Krejci (Horton coming back next season is 75% possibility)
    2nd line Marchand Bergy Seguin all signed players
    3rd line Caron Peverly  ???????
    4th line ????? ??????? Thornton

    Defence Chara Boys Ference Sieds McQuaid Hamilton Krug all signed d men with Hamilton the big expectation for an NHLer.

    Putting Rask on the trade block just to see what the offers are would not hurt.

    PC will need to address the ?????? first and fill in those holes and see what cap space is left.

    Kelly Paille Campbell Zanon UFA's my first concern would be Kelly signing then Rask if nothing returns from a worth while trade. Zanon can be a good signing for cost reasons and fill in a temporary hole. Krug and Hamilton will give PC and Company the answer come training camp.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    While every is fighting over Parise, PC will sign David Jones from the Avalanche to a reasonable deal around 3 million per year.
    Posted by Orrthebest


    This might not be so bad!

    There will be at least one "depth signing" of a 3rd/4th line guy. There always is.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    I don't think PC is likely to sign much of anything from the free agent market and I still think that dealing Thomas is much more likely than a big free agent splash, So, sorry Oates, but I think that is the realistic move to discuss.  I think Chicago is the most likely destination.  I think Leddy, Stalberg, or Jimmy Hayes are possible guys to look for in return, and maybe a draft pick. As far as depth forward or depth defensmen, I think they will look within.  Caron is ready to play full-time on the 3rd line and then you can take a hard look at Sauve, Camper, Spooner, etc. in camp. Same on D.  I don't see much reason to try to sign depth guys until Hamilton, Krug, Miller, etc. prove that they are NOT useful depth guys. It could be a boring summer of non-moves.  I say a trade of Thomas or possibly Krejci is more likely than a big free agent signing.
    Posted by Fletcher1

    Disagree, the "non-moves" might actually pretty exciting.

    Corvo - gone, his replacement will be interesting at least, Krug, Hamilton or a free agent signing.  It will at least be interesting.

    3rd & 4th line guys, Poulliot and Paille are my least favorite to watch.  
    Pouliot on a typical night does nothing, every 15 games he does something spectacular.
    Paille certainly has the worst hands on the team, only better than Thornton because he's twice as fast as Thornton.
    Plus, for a non-dirty player, he sure has thrown a fair share of dirty (and stupid) hits for stupid penalties.

    Replacing Corvo, Pouliot and Paille might be boring, but I think it will make the team significantly more exciting to watch.

    I don't like to do the fantasy stuff, but I see lots of interesting names in that 1.2 mil to 2.1 mil range that I think would be real nice upgrades to those guys.

    Hell, here's a "boring" move, resign Rolston for 1.25 a year.  I'd like that.  Sign some other FA and get some competition for those bottom 2 lines.  I think that would work.

    I think this team has been upgraded every year PC has been running things.  I *still* think this year's team is better than last year's.  I think it is likely that the team next year will be an improvement over this year.


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Should and could are different questions.

    I think they need to manage the third and fourth lines differently.  The third line has lost a bit of its identity, and the fourth line wasn't nearly as effective this year as last - Paille was pretty much on par, but both Thornton and Campbell dropped about 40% in production.  Not good enough if they're going to roll 'em.

    Kelly's a good hockey player, but he has hit the Peter principle - he's about to get paid above his talents and look like a failure.  He had 8 of his 20 goals between Nov. 1 and Dec. 3.  He only had 8 more after January 1st.  The third line is rarely deployed in a pure shut-down role, and they're paying Peverley too much for him to be "just" a checking forward now.  So - go back to when the third line had Wheeler and Ryder.  Hardly a checking line, you're looking for mismatches that will give you increased production from that line.  I'd hope for them to compete the spots with Peverley rather than sign new guys, but I don't know who in Providence has a snowball's chance of making them better right now.  Maybe Sauve and Caron to start.

    Problem is that they don't have much in the pipeline, and my re-vamp of the 3rd and 4th lines is starting to sound like they should just play a bunch of young guys and pray.  I'll ahve to look at who's available or potentially available to think this through. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    Should and could are different questions. I think they need to manage the third and fourth lines differently.  The third line has lost a bit of its identity, and the fourth line wasn't nearly as effective this year as last - Paille was pretty much on par, but both Thornton and Campbell dropped about 40% in production.  Not good enough if they're going to roll 'em. Kelly's a good hockey player, but he has hit the Peter principle - he's about to get paid above his talents and look like a failure.  He had 8 of his 20 goals between Nov. 1 and Dec. 3.  He only had 8 more after January 1st.  The third line is rarely deployed in a pure shut-down role, and they're paying Peverley too much for him to be "just" a checking forward now.  So - go back to when the third line had Wheeler and Ryder.  Hardly a checking line, you're looking for mismatches that will give you increased production from that line.  I'd hope for them to compete the spots with Peverley rather than sign new guys, but I don't know who in Providence has a snowball's chance of making them better right now.  Maybe Sauve and Caron to start. Problem is that they don't have much in the pipeline, and my re-vamp of the 3rd and 4th lines is starting to sound like they should just play a bunch of young guys and pray.  I'll ahve to look at who's available or potentially available to think this through. 
    Posted by Bookboy007

    Look at how they did last year in the FA market.  Yah, Corvo, but then again, I really would rather have Corvo over Kaberle.  Six in one and half dozen in the other as far as I'm concerned.

    And Pouliot turned out relatively well.  Again, look at that free agent market last year, there wasn't that much to choose from.  There's a lot better pickings this year.

    I think PC has gotten better at this game every season.  I look for that trend to continue.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Posts: 887
    First: 7/30/2009
    Last: 4/26/2012
    In Response to Expiring Contract: Who Stays?:
    Pouliot, Kelly, Paille, Campbell, Rolston, Zanon, Motteau, Corvo, and Rask. Who is worth keeping?
    Posted by jmwalters


    Pouliot = Yes
    Kelly = How much is a 3rd line center worth?  Other options?  Free Agent - Gaustad, will hbe be cheaper? A kid - Spooner or Camper? USe cap space on Parise as #1 Krejci #2 Bergeron #3?
    Paille = No, 1 of the young kids will fill his role (Caron, MacDermid, Knight, etc...)
    Campbell = No, I would sign Zenon Kenopka instead (does essentially what Soupy does only better face off, penalty killer , fighter and energy!)
    Rolston = No, He will retire
    Zanon or Motteau = One of them, Yes at cheep $ for insurance
    Corvo = No, Dougie Hamilton takes his slot
    Rask = No, I am not a Tuukka fan.  I would rather the B's shop him and get a top 6 forward, get a serviceable back up, ride TT for 1 more year, and go after Quick when LA fails to sign him.(wishful thinking)
    Street hockey is great for kids. It’s energetic, competitive, and skillful. And best of all it keeps them off the street.

    Hey Oates, this one of the best posts recently by MEANE that addresses your request!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Trade Krejci for Nash.

    Even up.

    Win the Cup.

    Yes! 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    I still think PC should think really hard about bringing in a #2 d-man. Suter fits the bill & I think Bos can get him for $5mill. You sign Rask for 3yrs at 3.0. DH can learn to play being Sieds partner. Put Z & Suter together. You trade Jonny B & bring in you're player to replace Kelly & bring Paille back for his PKing skills. He's one of the best in the league at it. Not Axellesson's smarts, but he's as strong a skater. Do Sandog a favor & let one of his boys make the club, with Caron.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: The Realistic Move

    Oh I think Thomas being traded is quite realistic, I just said there is already lots of talk of that so I wasn't bringing it up. My gut tells me it's about 50:50... I think if you start talking about a 10th overall pick in the mix, it could very well happen.

    In Response to Re: The Realistic Move:
    I don't think PC is likely to sign much of anything from the free agent market and I still think that dealing Thomas is much more likely than a big free agent splash, So, sorry Oates, but I think that is the realistic move to discuss.  I think Chicago is the most likely destination.  I think Leddy, Stalberg, or Jimmy Hayes are possible guys to look for in return, and maybe a draft pick. As far as depth forward or depth defensmen, I think they will look within.  Caron is ready to play full-time on the 3rd line and then you can take a hard look at Sauve, Camper, Spooner, etc. in camp. Same on D.  I don't see much reason to try to sign depth guys until Hamilton, Krug, Miller, etc. prove that they are NOT useful depth guys. It could be a boring summer of non-moves.  I say a trade of Thomas or possibly Krejci is more likely than a big free agent signing.
    Posted by Fletcher1

     
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