Thornton & Marleau get extensions

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from cowboys9. Show cowboys9's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Ergoetal's comment:

    Thornton is soft, though.  The thing with Getzlaff was out of context, as if the coach had said something like "Hey, you're a big guy, can you please do something here to help us out?"

    He's easily stopped by smaller guys, loses board battles and turns the puck over with regularity, gets tossed around by other big guys -- see what Soderberg did to him in the last Bs game? -- and tell me, does he ever hit someone, like, hard?

    His last few years here he and Bs management were complaining that opposing players  players were holding him, roughing, etc.

    The thing is, he had (has?) the talent to be huge in the game, but he rarely showed it.  He's happy to stay in his comfort zone and ring up the assists.  If he was smaller it might not matter so much.  But the fact that he's a big strong guy with good hands, etc. means that he's a role model to others on the team, and he's just never shown much in terms of heart.

    Hence, "soft."  

     



    Man , there isn't anything you have stated that is even remotely accurate....you couldn't be more wrong about Thorton... I don't think you really know the player or watched closely......Thorton will be a first ballot HOF.... Were you missing in action in 2006 when he won the Hart and Art Ross trophies?  Only player in NHL history to do that playing for two teams.. Among active players he ranks 3rd in scoring all time... Top 50 all time , by the time he finishes Top 10...he has racked up 1000 PIM... You don't get that playing soft Bud, and you certainly don't make him your captain if that was the case...I think quite a few were a few fights With some tough players.....Look it up...

     Yeah your right he has had very little impact on the game....

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions


    How many opportunities have the Sharks had over the years ?  Always great in the regular season but always ends badly for them in the playoffs.  If they don't get over the hump in these next three years they have to blow it up !!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to cowboys9's comment:

    In response to Ergoetal's comment:

    Thornton is soft, though.  The thing with Getzlaff was out of context, as if the coach had said something like "Hey, you're a big guy, can you please do something here to help us out?"

    He's easily stopped by smaller guys, loses board battles and turns the puck over with regularity, gets tossed around by other big guys -- see what Soderberg did to him in the last Bs game? -- and tell me, does he ever hit someone, like, hard?

    His last few years here he and Bs management were complaining that opposing players  players were holding him, roughing, etc.

    The thing is, he had (has?) the talent to be huge in the game, but he rarely showed it.  He's happy to stay in his comfort zone and ring up the assists.  If he was smaller it might not matter so much.  But the fact that he's a big strong guy with good hands, etc. means that he's a role model to others on the team, and he's just never shown much in terms of heart.

    Hence, "soft."  

     



    Man , there isn't anything you have stated that is even remotely accurate....you couldn't be more wrong about Thorton... I don't think you really know the player or watched closely......Thorton will be a first ballot HOF.... Were you missing in action in 2006 when he won the Hart and Art Ross trophies?  Only player in NHL history to do that playing for two teams.. Among active players he ranks 3rd in scoring all time... Top 50 all time , by the time he finishes Top 10...he has racked up 1000 PIM... You don't get that playing soft Bud, and you certainly don't make him your captain if that was the case...I think quite a few were a few fights With some tough players.....Look it up...

     Yeah your right he has had very little impact on the game....



    It's funny to read the usual accusation that someone hasn't watched the player followed by such a schmozz of things that have nothing to do with watching the player.

    2005-06 was one of two (maybe three) years that Joe Thornton played like the player the Bruins drafted.  The other was under Keenan who refused to accept Thornton playing soft.  Forced to play a more aggressive style and use his size and shote, Thornton had what's still his best season in goals with 37.  Two years later, he had his best year as a Bruin, and had his second and last 30+ goal season.  In that stretch - those three years plus 2003-04 - he had about 44% of his career total in penalty minutes - 441.  The first year back after the lockout, he had a grand total of 6 PiM in 23 games before the trade.  He went back to being a pass-first playmaker, not an all-around dominant franchise player.

    But when he was traded?  Well, then he played like a guy with somethng to prove and he had the most dominant season of his career.  And once he felt like he'd showed 'em, he has let that fire slowly fade.  Both his goal total and his PiM totals have declined every year.  With rare exceptions where someone else initiates the fight (why would you wake up sleepy Joe?), he really hasn't tried to use his size other than to shield the puck for years.  The last three years?  Joe's PiMs are 31, 26, and 10 for this year.  Ales "Charmin" Hemsky is 43, 16, and 16.

    As for his being the Captain.  He's the most skilled, tenured vet.  He's such a great passer he's racked up HoF totals and barely touched what he was capable of being.  And he's led them to nothing.  The saddest part of the JT Superstar story is when you look at what he has accomplished, he's done it on talent alone.  If, in every season, he matched the work ethic of the few years where he was made uncomfortable, we'd be talking about one of the best players of all time.  And in a Bruin uniform, most likely.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:

    so are a lot of players that have been part of championship teams. if he got 9 million, it would be a team built around a soft player, at this deal, it's just fine. 



    When was the last time a soft Captain and a soft #2 won the Cup?



    I don't think these signings make them favorites to win the Cup.  It think it makes them closer than leaving those two unsigned.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Perhaps it is debatable whether he is 'soft' or not, or how soft he is, or whatever.  I lean towards cowboys and kelvana in that the stories of his softness have become a little exaggerated in the ex-girlfirend syndrome way.  He shouldn't have been a captain,  but it also wasn't that bad.

    The next issue is whether a 'softish' player, who averages over a point-per-game can still be a highly useful player on a playoff team.  I think that San Jose needs some new leaders and some different talents, but I also think that they are much better with Thornton than without, for the next three years at least. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Fletch, the big problem with Thornton is that he eats up a lot of air in the room.  I don't know that you could keep him there and turn over the reins to Couture or someone like that and ask him to be a good soldier.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    If he had Joe Sakics frame, nobody would be calling him soft. I hear people say they would rather not see Lucic in the penalty box. Thorntons game is a point producing first line center. But becuase of his size, and that he will fight if prodded, he is labeled as soft.

    That said, Bookboy nailed it on the head when he mentioned Mike Keenan. Say what you want about Keenan, but he demands his best players play a certain way, and he certainly got the most out of Thornton. Perhaps McLellan has advised him to stay out of the box, who knows, but those PIMS's Bookboy pointed out would make a case for that.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    If he had Joe Sakics frame, nobody would be calling him soft. I hear people say they would rather not see Lucic in the penalty box. Thorntons game is a point producing first line center. But becuase of his size, and that he will fight if prodded, he is labeled as soft.

    That said, Bookboy nailed it on the head when he mentioned Mike Keenan. Say what you want about Keenan, but he demands his best players play a certain way, and he certainly got the most out of Thornton. Perhaps McLellan has advised him to stay out of the box, who knows, but those PIMS's Bookboy pointed out would make a case for that.



    I love Joe. Had the pleasure to meet him and was awesome to be around.   I hope he gets a cup some day.  Hes far from soft.  His size and personality may indicate that but hes not shy to throw the gloves down.  I will always be a fan.  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Fletch, the big problem with Thornton is that he eats up a lot of air in the room.  I don't know that you could keep him there and turn over the reins to Couture or someone like that and ask him to be a good soldier.



    I don't know though.  You've got three years and the cap is going up (right...?).  I don't think that the Thornton/Marleau contracts preclude the development of the next wave, or at least they don't preclude them in a way that isn't worth it.

    We'll see what happens.  If the Sharks lose in the first round of the playoffs again, amid quiet preformances from Thornton and Marleau it will be hard not to think that cutting bait would have been better.  But when you're a top ten team in the league with Thornton, Marleau, and the aging Boyle, I think you keep taking a crack at playoff runs and hope you can build some young talent at the same time.  Their situation doesn't scream 'tear down and rebuild' to me.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Back to the oriignal part of the topic, I kind of find the timing of the announcement interesting. i wonder if the Sharks will be busy at the deadline and signing these two ensures they dont have to take on just a rental. They know what they have going forward.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Funny how the 1997 draft has played out.  I remember when the Bruins were riding Brett Harkins and company to the worst record in the league and reading all sorts of stuff about how stacked that draft was - the big three centres plus Samsonov who was ripping it up against men in the IHL.  Luongo was going to be a franchise changing goalie, Dan Tkachuk was a Messier type leader, Brewer and Mara were top tier defense prospects....

    Obviously I think Thornton was a disappointment who rarely, if ever, lived up to his potential.  We saw it in a few sustained bursts - enough to know that if he wanted to, he could play that way.  Firing passes from the perimeter was more comfortable.  Marleau was considered enigmatic for years before Thornton arrived, and he's been up and down since.  Jokinen, in my eyes, is poison.  He had a "prime" of two years and has been a milk carton regular most every other year.

    Luongo has generally been considered an elite goaltender with an Olympic gold to back him up - until 2011 pinned him with the Leaky Lou label.  The last few years have been rep rehab for a guy now considered mentally soft.  Brewer started fast and is now a journeyman defensive D.  Mara never was more than a bunch of tools looking for a box.  Tkachuk never made it - though considering he had 11 points in 19 games, you'd think he might have gotten more than a single cup of coffee.  Samsonov was slowed by injury and was never the dynamo he was projected to be.  That was also the year Washington drafted Boynton - who never signed with tehm and was never a top 10 kind of player when he did play.

    The two guys you look at from that year who have been good and definitely not soft are Hossa and Morrow.  If you re-drafted, you might take Hossa first overall.  He's second to Thornton in points and has two cups and four finals appearances to his name.

    Overall, it was a tough draft on the Bruins.  In addition to the dynamic duo of #1 and #8 not fulfilling their promise, Ben Clymer exploited the NCAA/OHL rules to sign with Tampa and two high 3rd rounders both crapped out (Karlin and Goren).  Three other first rounders from this year were later Boston property - Boynton, Mara and Zultek - and none was particularly helpful.  Late rounds - mixed bag.  On the one hand, Ference came in in the 8th round and a decade later was part of pullng the team out of the pit the Thornton era dug, but Matt Cooke was drafted in the 7th round that year.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    If he had Joe Sakics frame, nobody would be calling him soft. I hear people say they would rather not see Lucic in the penalty box. Thorntons game is a point producing first line center. But becuase of his size, and that he will fight if prodded, he is labeled as soft.

    That said, Bookboy nailed it on the head when he mentioned Mike Keenan. Say what you want about Keenan, but he demands his best players play a certain way, and he certainly got the most out of Thornton. Perhaps McLellan has advised him to stay out of the box, who knows, but those PIMS's Bookboy pointed out would make a case for that.



    I love Joe. Had the pleasure to meet him and was awesome to be around.   I hope he gets a cup some day.  Hes far from soft.  His size and personality may indicate that but hes not shy to throw the gloves down.  I will always be a fan.  




    He's not soft=won't fight.  He's soft=prefers to play near the boards regardless of whether or not that's the right play.  When he goes to the net regularly, he's as hard to stop as Crosby.  When he becomes predictable and goes to the boards to set up, well - Saku Koivu used to eat his lunch all day every day because he was quick enough to get inside Joe's hands and rush him. I find him maddening to watch because he passes up so many chances to get to the net.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    those saying they have a soft 1 and 2 should probably take a look at joe pavelski and logan couture. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Fletch, the big problem with Thornton is that he eats up a lot of air in the room.  I don't know that you could keep him there and turn over the reins to Couture or someone like that and ask him to be a good soldier.



    I don't know though.  You've got three years and the cap is going up (right...?).  I don't think that the Thornton/Marleau contracts preclude the development of the next wave, or at least they don't preclude them in a way that isn't worth it.

    We'll see what happens.  If the Sharks lose in the first round of the playoffs again, amid quiet preformances from Thornton and Marleau it will be hard not to think that cutting bait would have been better.  But when you're a top ten team in the league with Thornton, Marleau, and the aging Boyle, I think you keep taking a crack at playoff runs and hope you can build some young talent at the same time.  Their situation doesn't scream 'tear down and rebuild' to me.



    I'm not talking about money though.  I mean it more as a "he's the guy" thing.  It's his team.  If they started to say well, no - it's Pavelski's team....  I don't know that you'd see him perform at the same level.  I don't know if the team would do well as a result.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    "Samsonov was slowed by injury and was never the dynamo he was projected to be."  

    I can still hear Fred Cusick now, "Samsonov enters the zone,twisting,turning,oh..he lost the puck". More moves than ex-lax but alas it never quite panned out,thought he was going to be great,oh well.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mxt. Show mxt's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In this day and age, these two contracts are very reasonable in both length and money.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    If he had Joe Sakics frame, nobody would be calling him soft. I hear people say they would rather not see Lucic in the penalty box. Thorntons game is a point producing first line center. But becuase of his size, and that he will fight if prodded, he is labeled as soft.

    That said, Bookboy nailed it on the head when he mentioned Mike Keenan. Say what you want about Keenan, but he demands his best players play a certain way, and he certainly got the most out of Thornton. Perhaps McLellan has advised him to stay out of the box, who knows, but those PIMS's Bookboy pointed out would make a case for that.



    I love Joe. Had the pleasure to meet him and was awesome to be around.   I hope he gets a cup some day.  Hes far from soft.  His size and personality may indicate that but hes not shy to throw the gloves down.  I will always be a fan.  




    He's not soft=won't fight.  He's soft=prefers to play near the boards regardless of whether or not that's the right play.  When he goes to the net regularly, he's as hard to stop as Crosby.  When he becomes predictable and goes to the boards to set up, well - Saku Koivu used to eat his lunch all day every day because he was quick enough to get inside Joe's hands and rush him. I find him maddening to watch because he passes up so many chances to get to the net.



    I dont think of Joe as a power fwd who has to do this.  He is a setup man similar to Gretzky(Not that he should be compared to him).  Put guys who can score with him and look out.  just bc he is a hulking person in size doesnt mean he has to go in front and take a pounding.  Can he? Sure.  Id rather see him painting a picture and setting up guys.  i remember Lindros playing this im bigger then everyone style and he didnt last long.  He wasnt soft though.  Maybe stupid, but not soft.  

    Joe is nearly a point a game player in nearly 1200 games.  I would love if he gets a cup.  Hes definitely someone i cheer for.   

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    Fletch, the big problem with Thornton is that he eats up a lot of air in the room.  I don't know that you could keep him there and turn over the reins to Couture or someone like that and ask him to be a good soldier.



    I don't know though.  You've got three years and the cap is going up (right...?).  I don't think that the Thornton/Marleau contracts preclude the development of the next wave, or at least they don't preclude them in a way that isn't worth it.

    We'll see what happens.  If the Sharks lose in the first round of the playoffs again, amid quiet preformances from Thornton and Marleau it will be hard not to think that cutting bait would have been better.  But when you're a top ten team in the league with Thornton, Marleau, and the aging Boyle, I think you keep taking a crack at playoff runs and hope you can build some young talent at the same time.  Their situation doesn't scream 'tear down and rebuild' to me.



    I'm not talking about money though.  I mean it more as a "he's the guy" thing.  It's his team.  If they started to say well, no - it's Pavelski's team....  I don't know that you'd see him perform at the same level.  I don't know if the team would do well as a result.



    Joe says its Coutures team.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    I think Robbie Ftorek made a big mistake when he made Joe the Bs captain so early in his career.  He didn't seem ready.  A few years later I recall him saying, after a losing playoff game, that he was the captain and he was going to have to be a better leader.

    "So I have to score more goals," he said.  And he sounded at the time like he wasn't sure he could do that.

    He didn't realize that his role wasn't so much to score goals, but to play his a** off every night, which he wasn't doing. We all saw what he could do when he wanted to -- and yeah he could have been one of the elite players in the sport -- but he only played that way in spurts.

    And I still say he gives up the puck too easily when he gets hit on the boards or when he rushes a pass before getting hit.

    Not that I watch him every second of the game, but I did note that in the most recent game with the Bs he gave up the puck twice, pretty easily, during San Jose's first PP.  The Bs killed off the penalty pretty easily.  Check it out, if you've dvr'd it.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    I think I am leaning towards what shupe is saying.  People who are still disappointed with Thornton are measuring against what he could be instead of accepting what he is.  There is certainly some validity to that, and (for God's sake) he should be able to score 30 goals every season with that size and those hands.  Not gonna happen though.  At this point in his career, let's just accept it.

    His choice in style of play hasn't exactly been a bust either.  If he wants to curl to the boards and set people up, well, he does happen to be about the best in the world at that skill set.  

    So, the Sharks should accept that skill set along with the point-per-game pace and find someone else to go to the net and take the shots.  It can't be that hard.  Thornton made Cheechoo a (short-term) star.  Thornton made Niko Dimitrakos a (short-term) NHL 1st liner (who?).

    I think you can build around him, still.  I'd go ahead and concede that is quickly becoming Pavelski's and Couture's team, but those guys are a heck of a lot better with Big Joe out there.  Maybe Wingles keeps getting better and they make a few signings/developments.  Could be a very dangerous team.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    I think I am leaning towards what shupe is saying.  People who are still disappointed with Thornton are measuring against what he could be instead of accepting what he is.  There is certainly some validity to that, and (for God's sake) he should be able to score 30 goals every season with that size and those hands.  Not gonna happen though.  At this point in his career, let's just accept it.

    His choice in style of play hasn't exactly been a bust either.  If he wants to curl to the boards and set people up, well, he does happen to be about the best in the world at that skill set.  

    So, the Sharks should accept that skill set along with the point-per-game pace and find someone else to go to the net and take the shots.  It can't be that hard.  Thornton made Cheechoo a (short-term) star.  Thornton made Niko Dimitrakos a (short-term) NHL 1st liner (who?).

    I think you can build around him, still.  I'd go ahead and concede that is quickly becoming Pavelski's and Couture's team, but those guys are a heck of a lot better with Big Joe out there.  Maybe Wingles keeps getting better and they make a few signings/developments.  Could be a very dangerous team.



    I think you make a good point.  I agree that if you let Joe be Joe and rely on others to score, the Sharks can be a contender.  But if they do go high in the playoffs, I won't be expecting much from Joe.  We'll see.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    " Could be a very dangerous team."



    Have said that every year for the past 8 yrs and to no avail, but again they could be a very dangerous team,likely not.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    " Could be a very dangerous team."



    Have said that every year for the past 8 yrs and to no avail, but again they could be a very dangerous team,likely not.



    I know, it's true.  But still, you get rid of Thornton and Marleau and you can be sure that Pavelski and Couture are honing golf skills in May for the next few years.

    I'd keep trying.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:

    " Could be a very dangerous team."



    Have said that every year for the past 8 yrs and to no avail, but again they could be a very dangerous team,likely not.



    I know, it's true.  But still, you get rid of Thornton and Marleau and you can be sure that Pavelski and Couture are honing golf skills in May for the next few years.

    I'd keep trying.  



    Yes, they still have a very good team and with some great goaltending from Niemi they could go a long way.They are not anywhere near a rebuild and Marleau and Thornton still have a few good years left in them.I just think they can't get over the hump, but i thought that about the B's as well and they finally won a Cup.The difference is the B's changed when they signed Chara, the Sharks have no Chara.But better to keep trying than not try at all.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Soft.

     
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